Does "loving God" include my works or just how I feel?
- Thread starter tantalon
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The law as a commandment in James is to not have the faith of Christ as the labor of God's love in respect to ourselves or others rather than Christ alone. We have the power of that law that works in us But to declare it is of us like the 2 examples (Abraham as Rehab) is to commit blasphemy against the Spirit of God .
Faith is a work. They the two cannot be separated.
From my experience when it comes to a "work of faith" many say God does not have or need faith. Then the confusion between Paul and James develops
Note below.. (Purple) my addition
James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith (Christ's) wrought with his works,(Christ's) and by works (Christ's) was faith (Christ's) made perfect?
Some murmur and say what about me what's my sign ?
Pjilipians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Faith is a work. They the two cannot be separated.
From my experience when it comes to a "work of faith" many say God does not have or need faith. Then the confusion between Paul and James develops
Note below.. (Purple) my addition
James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith (Christ's) wrought with his works,(Christ's) and by works (Christ's) was faith (Christ's) made perfect?
Some murmur and say what about me what's my sign ?
Pjilipians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
God only honors what God does. In you and through you, providing that your Faith is placed and maintained exclusively in Christ and Him Crucified. Not what we do.
Grace only flows when my faith is in the death of Jesus (Christ Crucified). The Holy Spirit will deliver this believer into the death, burial, Resurrection of Christ, and His Ascension. Rom. 8:2, Rom. 6:3-5, 2 Cor. 4:11-12, Gal. 2:21, Ephesians 2:6
As servants of Righteousness (Romans 6:18), and the only way we can continue to serve that Righteousness is by the Grace of God (Galatians 2:21). Which means the Grace of God is flowing into that Believer because their Faith is placed and maintained exclusively in Christ and Him Crucified. If the Believer Faith is not in Christ and Him Crucified (the death of Christ who loved us and gave Himself for us - Galatians 2:20, 1 John 4:9-10) you are out of the will of God. Which means we have removed ourselves from Him (Galatians 1:6).
All works must be produced and birth by the Holy Spirit or it is dead works, rotten fruit! (wood, hay, stubble) - 1 Cor. 3:12-15.
Everything that man does dies; everything Jesus does lives forever and is blessed (Psalms 1:3).
If it's done in the flesh, it will consume the person, i.e., "the bush"; however, if it's done by the Power of the Holy Spirit, the bush will burn and not be consumed (Exodus 3:2, Romans 8:2).
We live by what Jesus Christ did by Grace through Faith who loved us and gave Himself for us at the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won (Rom. 6:3-5, Philippians 1:21); His Obedience (Philippians 2:8, John 10:18), His Faith (Gal. 2:20-21), and His Love (Faith works by Love -Gal. 5:6). It is not our obedience, not our faith, and not our love, that we live by (Rom. 8:2, Gal. 2:18). We are united with Christ, therefore, God doesn’t rehabilitate us, He eliminates us. The Holy Spirit moves in to give us power to live Holy that causes us to walk in the newness of life (Ezekiel 36:26-37, Romans 8:11). Only by Faith in the Blood of Jesus have we been given eyes to see (John 3:3-5) and only Faith in the Blood of Jesus will you continue be able to see and not go blind again (2 Peter 1:9).
Grace only flows when my faith is in the death of Jesus (Christ Crucified). The Holy Spirit will deliver this believer into the death, burial, Resurrection of Christ, and His Ascension. Rom. 8:2, Rom. 6:3-5, 2 Cor. 4:11-12, Gal. 2:21, Ephesians 2:6
As servants of Righteousness (Romans 6:18), and the only way we can continue to serve that Righteousness is by the Grace of God (Galatians 2:21). Which means the Grace of God is flowing into that Believer because their Faith is placed and maintained exclusively in Christ and Him Crucified. If the Believer Faith is not in Christ and Him Crucified (the death of Christ who loved us and gave Himself for us - Galatians 2:20, 1 John 4:9-10) you are out of the will of God. Which means we have removed ourselves from Him (Galatians 1:6).
All works must be produced and birth by the Holy Spirit or it is dead works, rotten fruit! (wood, hay, stubble) - 1 Cor. 3:12-15.
Everything that man does dies; everything Jesus does lives forever and is blessed (Psalms 1:3).
If it's done in the flesh, it will consume the person, i.e., "the bush"; however, if it's done by the Power of the Holy Spirit, the bush will burn and not be consumed (Exodus 3:2, Romans 8:2).
We live by what Jesus Christ did by Grace through Faith who loved us and gave Himself for us at the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won (Rom. 6:3-5, Philippians 1:21); His Obedience (Philippians 2:8, John 10:18), His Faith (Gal. 2:20-21), and His Love (Faith works by Love -Gal. 5:6). It is not our obedience, not our faith, and not our love, that we live by (Rom. 8:2, Gal. 2:18). We are united with Christ, therefore, God doesn’t rehabilitate us, He eliminates us. The Holy Spirit moves in to give us power to live Holy that causes us to walk in the newness of life (Ezekiel 36:26-37, Romans 8:11). Only by Faith in the Blood of Jesus have we been given eyes to see (John 3:3-5) and only Faith in the Blood of Jesus will you continue be able to see and not go blind again (2 Peter 1:9).
Why not read the scripture and interpret it literally, instead of relying on other people's commentaries?
Hebrews 9
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Hebrews 9
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
S
If You think Paul taught something Jesus did not teach I would say that was a fundamental error in your theology.
Abraham was righteous apart from the Law. Paul's revelation came from the Old Testament Scriptures. The Prophets spoke about what Jesus would accomplish.
The revelation of righteousness by faith in God's promises was there all the time.
The Cross was a done deal from the foundation of the earth. When they put their faith in the promise that the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent they were putting faith in the cross without even knowing the details of how the seed of the serpent would crush the head of the serpent.
When Abraham believe his seed would be heir of the world he was justified without the works of the Law and he was putting faith in the cross without knowing the details of the cross and resurrection.
Faith believes what God has promised in the scriptures and Jesus preached faith in the one whom God had sent, namely Him. This was the path to righteousness he preached and they believed him without having it all figured out ahead of time.
Abraham was righteous apart from the Law. Paul's revelation came from the Old Testament Scriptures. The Prophets spoke about what Jesus would accomplish.
The revelation of righteousness by faith in God's promises was there all the time.
The Cross was a done deal from the foundation of the earth. When they put their faith in the promise that the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent they were putting faith in the cross without even knowing the details of how the seed of the serpent would crush the head of the serpent.
When Abraham believe his seed would be heir of the world he was justified without the works of the Law and he was putting faith in the cross without knowing the details of the cross and resurrection.
Faith believes what God has promised in the scriptures and Jesus preached faith in the one whom God had sent, namely Him. This was the path to righteousness he preached and they believed him without having it all figured out ahead of time.
That would be true If GOD we’re a man,HE would need to SEE physical work proving faith but GOD IS not a man and does not need to see Physical work.
Didn’t GOD account Abraham righteous before he did any Physical work?
MAN will do physical work PROVING that his faith Is true.
You see now what Apostle James meant when he
said show me your faith without your work and I will show you
my faith by my work.
+++
Romans 4:1-2
King James Version
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
Didn’t GOD account Abraham righteous before he did any Physical work?
MAN will do physical work PROVING that his faith Is true.
You see now what Apostle James meant when he
said show me your faith without your work and I will show you
my faith by my work.
+++
Romans 4:1-2
King James Version
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
God himself told Abraham to be circumcised. He warned Abraham in Genesis 17:14 that any male who is not circumcised would be cut off from his covenant.
Let me invite you to consider a thought experiment.
If I put you in a time machine, and you went back to the OT days.
Could you tell God "I believe I am righteous apart from works, because you revealed to Paul Romans 3:21. I will put my faith in the death burial and resurrection of your Son on the cross now and I believe I am forever righteous in your eyes".
What do you think God would say to you then?
Let me invite you to consider a thought experiment.
If I put you in a time machine, and you went back to the OT days.
Could you tell God "I believe I am righteous apart from works, because you revealed to Paul Romans 3:21. I will put my faith in the death burial and resurrection of your Son on the cross now and I believe I am forever righteous in your eyes".
What do you think God would say to you then?
S
I would believe that God was, and that he was a rewarder of them that diligently sought him, and I would be inspired by the promises that I could walk with God and I would seek God believing that I could Walk with Him and He would reward me with his self and take me up to be with Him. (Enoch pleased God by faith Heb 11) You don't seem to have grasped what Paul taught that was always there in the scriptures for those with faith illuminated by the Spirit to understand. "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" mic drop!
Exodus 19
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
As I was trying to tell you, for much of the OT days ever since Mount Sinai, you first had to be part of Israel, and you have to obey the Law of Moses to, as you said, "diligently seek him".
Don't get me wrong, I am as happy as you now that we have Romans 3:21 and Romans 4:5 to show our faith in God, apart from works.
But that does not mean those in the OT could rely on that too. But if you insist they could, alright then, we can agree to disagree.
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
As I was trying to tell you, for much of the OT days ever since Mount Sinai, you first had to be part of Israel, and you have to obey the Law of Moses to, as you said, "diligently seek him".
Don't get me wrong, I am as happy as you now that we have Romans 3:21 and Romans 4:5 to show our faith in God, apart from works.
But that does not mean those in the OT could rely on that too. But if you insist they could, alright then, we can agree to disagree.
S
I find the constant phrases people use about "Works" and "Law" here on CC on other internet sites are often their own philosophical reasoning and some of the worse gobily gook I have ever heard presented. I also find that most people who try to keep up with Augustine, Calvin and Luther have not read enough from those authors to speak intelligently about what they said.
And yet provision was made for anyone who was a seeker of righteousness born of another nation to become a proselyte and join them and inherit all the promises.
And yet provision was made for anyone who was a seeker of righteousness born of another nation to become a proselyte and join them and inherit all the promises.
Yes, Exodus 12:48 provided for that, but they had to be part of Israel, in order to be included in the covenant. Ultimately, they had to be saved as a Jew.
All that changed after Israel rejected their Messiah for the final time, thru the stoning of Stephen.
Now, we gentiles are saved independent of Israel, more precisely, thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11)
All that changed after Israel rejected their Messiah for the final time, thru the stoning of Stephen.
Now, we gentiles are saved independent of Israel, more precisely, thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11)