Does God want us to choose between law and grace?
- Thread starter Blik
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Thank you. So OSAS is not necessarily a true doctrine. IOW some will fall from their saved condition because they later willfully reject their God and turn into a person described in Revelation 21, and will not reap Eternal Life, but eternal hell fire.
This discussion needs to be had in every church around the world. We who say we are saved, need to remain faithful to our God and Savior and not take a position that since I am saved, I can do anything I wish and I trust Jesus has my back and will save me anyway into Eternal Life. I believe there will be a lot of disappointed persons on judgement day.
This discussion needs to be had in every church around the world. We who say we are saved, need to remain faithful to our God and Savior and not take a position that since I am saved, I can do anything I wish and I trust Jesus has my back and will save me anyway into Eternal Life. I believe there will be a lot of disappointed persons on judgement day.
-
1
- Show all
I am sure you have met Christians who
For such Christians, do you think they should expect to have Eternal Life too?
- knows the right thing to do but choose not to do it.
- Those that are complaining almost all the time about how tough life is.
- Those that choose not to believe in the many promises written in the Bible.
For such Christians, do you think they should expect to have Eternal Life too?
Well I agree spiritual writings are not deciphered mentally.
Paul cannot be saying in romans 7:14-24 he can walk in either for the person spoken of is a slave to sin. A slave has to do what his master dictates, he is not free to choose.
If Paul has to be speaking as a Christian, on account of men baptised in the Holy Spirit are writing to men baptised in the holy Spirit that would also have to apply to verses 7-11. Do you believe once Paul became a Christian and the Holy Spirit dwelt in him he was condemned by the law?
However, according to Paul's core message of law and grace we can know who is being referred to in those verses:
For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace romans6:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. romans7:14
A slave always has a master. Therefore, the person described has sin as their master, and they are sins slave.
As Paul preached sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace, we know the person mentioned in romans7:14-24 was living under law and not grace. Therefore Saul the Pharisee is being spoken of, not Paul the christian
Paul cannot be saying in romans 7:14-24 he can walk in either for the person spoken of is a slave to sin. A slave has to do what his master dictates, he is not free to choose.
If Paul has to be speaking as a Christian, on account of men baptised in the Holy Spirit are writing to men baptised in the holy Spirit that would also have to apply to verses 7-11. Do you believe once Paul became a Christian and the Holy Spirit dwelt in him he was condemned by the law?
However, according to Paul's core message of law and grace we can know who is being referred to in those verses:
For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace romans6:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. romans7:14
A slave always has a master. Therefore, the person described has sin as their master, and they are sins slave.
As Paul preached sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace, we know the person mentioned in romans7:14-24 was living under law and not grace. Therefore Saul the Pharisee is being spoken of, not Paul the christian
We cannot say we are..."saved"...while in this life on this earth. We are..." born again".
We are saved when G-d passes judgement on each of us on judgement day and awards us..."saved"...status....and that can only be done after this physical death. Once awarded us we cannot loose it nor can anyone take it from us. (this is where the OSAS folks get it wrong).
Yes we can loose our ..born again... status and thats' the reason the Bible cautions us in many ways to .."maintain"...until the end (physical death).
We are saved when G-d passes judgement on each of us on judgement day and awards us..."saved"...status....and that can only be done after this physical death. Once awarded us we cannot loose it nor can anyone take it from us. (this is where the OSAS folks get it wrong).
Yes we can loose our ..born again... status and thats' the reason the Bible cautions us in many ways to .."maintain"...until the end (physical death).
I apologize for phrasing it poorly.
What I was trying to say is, it's not so much about Jesus Himself coming into us, as it is us receiving the truth of the gospel.
Keep in mind that Jesus is the truth, the light, the very WORD of God.
So another way of looking at that verse would be, "I, the light of the world, the word of truth of God, stand at the door and knock."
It is an extension of and from Jesus that we receive, like taking a piece of bread from the loaf, or a sip from the goblet. We take a part of the whole. Like taking a grain of sand from all the sand that is in the world, or a small cup from the oceans.
They come in the form of the truth of God's word that we receive.
If we receive the truth of God's plan of salvation, we have received Jesus.
Again, we are born again BY OR THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD.
It is the same word we are told to keep in our heart in order to remain in Christ.
It is very clear in scripture. We receive a seed of and from God, and this same said seed Jesus calls it as though it is Himself. Where the seed goes, He goes, and whatever happens to the seed, happens to Him. And whatever happens to the person that the seed of God is in, Happens to Him.
Mat 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mar 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Mar 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of H4480 the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
OF
H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnı̂y minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of;
So God literally took a part of the spirit that was on Moses and gave those parts to the 70 elders. Like taking 70 apples from a tree and giving it to 70 people.
That is what both Jesus and the Holy Spirit do, they take a part of themselves and give it to us.
What I was trying to say is, it's not so much about Jesus Himself coming into us, as it is us receiving the truth of the gospel.
Keep in mind that Jesus is the truth, the light, the very WORD of God.
So another way of looking at that verse would be, "I, the light of the world, the word of truth of God, stand at the door and knock."
It is an extension of and from Jesus that we receive, like taking a piece of bread from the loaf, or a sip from the goblet. We take a part of the whole. Like taking a grain of sand from all the sand that is in the world, or a small cup from the oceans.
They come in the form of the truth of God's word that we receive.
If we receive the truth of God's plan of salvation, we have received Jesus.
Again, we are born again BY OR THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD.
It is the same word we are told to keep in our heart in order to remain in Christ.
It is very clear in scripture. We receive a seed of and from God, and this same said seed Jesus calls it as though it is Himself. Where the seed goes, He goes, and whatever happens to the seed, happens to Him. And whatever happens to the person that the seed of God is in, Happens to Him.
Mat 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mar 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Mar 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of H4480 the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
OF
H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnı̂y minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of;
So God literally took a part of the spirit that was on Moses and gave those parts to the 70 elders. Like taking 70 apples from a tree and giving it to 70 people.
That is what both Jesus and the Holy Spirit do, they take a part of themselves and give it to us.
Oh yeah.
Me too.
Those gospels are not for us,only Jews like paul. Even though he pointed men to Jesus,God forbid paul be corrupted by error of Jesus's ministry.
All that about born again,love, healing the sick,miracles,picking up your cross,making Jews mad, ministering to gentiles,preaching in synagogues,rebuking the Jews,tried in roman law,beaten by romans,persecuted by Jews,betrayed by brethren,etc.
Yeah,that stuff is heresy big time.
I will surely stay outta them Gospels. I will deal only in Paul that is so opposite and correct.
Oh,wait, Jesus and paul taught near identically.
Oh,man....it appears that whole bible is infected.
I cant even trust In Pauls deity anymore. He virtually copied Jesus's earthly ministry. We can not have that!!!
Am selling my bible today.
What religion can we turn to outside that horrible Gospel perversion????
Me too.
Those gospels are not for us,only Jews like paul. Even though he pointed men to Jesus,God forbid paul be corrupted by error of Jesus's ministry.
All that about born again,love, healing the sick,miracles,picking up your cross,making Jews mad, ministering to gentiles,preaching in synagogues,rebuking the Jews,tried in roman law,beaten by romans,persecuted by Jews,betrayed by brethren,etc.
Yeah,that stuff is heresy big time.
I will surely stay outta them Gospels. I will deal only in Paul that is so opposite and correct.
Oh,wait, Jesus and paul taught near identically.
Oh,man....it appears that whole bible is infected.
I cant even trust In Pauls deity anymore. He virtually copied Jesus's earthly ministry. We can not have that!!!
Am selling my bible today.
What religion can we turn to outside that horrible Gospel perversion????
Matt. 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matt. 3:15
Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.
What is different from the righteousness that we must fulfill in your mind? We are called to live a life without sin. Romans calls sin violation of the Law. There is no getting around it.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matt. 3:15
Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.
What is different from the righteousness that we must fulfill in your mind? We are called to live a life without sin. Romans calls sin violation of the Law. There is no getting around it.
But it is Budman, the Law is God’s statutes and ordinances on how to live in His kingdom. The law(Torah) pertains to all humans, and the Sacrifice of our Messiah gives us mercy to where we do not die according to the law, but this does not give us credence to no longer live according to the regulations of His kingdom. For example in Isaiah we see that anyone who does not defile His Sabbath and keeps His covenant (Torah was a covenant/contract on how to be His people) are accepted into His kingdom, now then we are all guilty of sin and breaking the law, but that’s where our Messiah’s gift of sacrifice saves us and we obtain mercy and grace, but we aren’t supposed to stop practicing righteousness and living by the Torah to the best of our abilities. But rather take on the covenant of Yahweh(God) and walk out according to His ways and His statutes (Torah, and Yahweh states that He knows we love Him by obedience) guided by the Spirit and continually thankful and believing in our Messiah’s sacrifice.
I get your point here, however it’s done in a very sarcastic way. I def would caution to say Paul has any deity attributes or that you worship him even in joking or trying to make a point. Yahshua(Jesus) died for any who would believe in Him, take up thier cross and follow Him, and follow His path. I feel that following His path is living how He himself lived to the best of my ability, and that is taking care of those who needed help such as widows and poor and orphans, loving all those who live on this Earth with me, Loving God with all my heart mind and soul. He also happened to follow Torah which I find to be a beautiful way to live and set myself apart from the world. Which we are called to do also. But furthermore the more you get to know God and love Him and want to grow in relationship with Him the more you see he requires obedience as a sign of our devotion. What better way to show devotion than to follow his rule book? Now there ar many laws which do not and can not apply to us today because there is no temple, we are not Kings, and we are not Levites. Yahshua has already taken care of the sin Sacrifice and Sin offerings, but the remainder of Torah is walkable. And the blessing in Deuteronomy for waking out the Torah are real, as I have experienced in my own life from living a life of sin and receiving the curses and then changing my life, being saved and waking out the Torah and receiving the blessings. I write all this to share what I have found as truth and freedom in my walk, not to push a theology of “thou must do as I do” but rather to share what I have come to see and believe for me and my household.
The Law is to bring you to Christ. That is its ultimate goal. Only Christ can perfect you.
The Law has no power to cause you to walk in Gods Statutes and Ordinances. Only Christ has the Power to cause you to Walk in Gods Statutes and Ordinances.
There is NO RIGHTEOUSNESS in your "practice" of the Law. The ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS that can be attained before God is in Christ.
The Christian knows all this. It is only the Judaizer and legalist that wishes to convolute law keeping with Christianity, thinking they can get extra credit, bonus Righteousness from their DISOBEDIENCE to the law. I don't write obedience to the law because the Judaizer and legalist is never obedient to the law. And I think they know it.
The Law has no power to cause you to walk in Gods Statutes and Ordinances. Only Christ has the Power to cause you to Walk in Gods Statutes and Ordinances.
There is NO RIGHTEOUSNESS in your "practice" of the Law. The ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS that can be attained before God is in Christ.
The Christian knows all this. It is only the Judaizer and legalist that wishes to convolute law keeping with Christianity, thinking they can get extra credit, bonus Righteousness from their DISOBEDIENCE to the law. I don't write obedience to the law because the Judaizer and legalist is never obedient to the law. And I think they know it.
Grandpa and Budman—-
I don’t claim to walk it perfectly, and would never claim to do so. I also believe that the Torah is a tool to help differentiate us from the world we live in. It does not have redeeming power that is only through our Messiah as I have stated, I also believe and agree with you that the only way to be saved is through our Messiah. However I personally believe that walking out the Torah doesn’t go away once we are saved, it is a means and a tool to live and practice piety as much as possible. The lessons in Torah all point to purity and getting as close to the Father as we can, and we can only get close to Him if we go through the Messiah. I’m not saying that Torah leads to salvation, I’m saying it helps us walk pure and be separated from the world. I also don’t feel you have to convert to my way of thinking, I just like sharing what I feel I have found to be truth in my studies for any whom may be interested or help someone whom may be struggling as I once struggled in my life. You two can come at me and insult me in any way you so desire but it won’t shake my faith or harm me in any way, and I’ll always discuss with you peacefully, and never intentionally insult you, as that is not what my Messiah called me to do, He did call me to walk peacefully even when some may not be peaceful back, and share truth whenever possible.
I don’t claim to walk it perfectly, and would never claim to do so. I also believe that the Torah is a tool to help differentiate us from the world we live in. It does not have redeeming power that is only through our Messiah as I have stated, I also believe and agree with you that the only way to be saved is through our Messiah. However I personally believe that walking out the Torah doesn’t go away once we are saved, it is a means and a tool to live and practice piety as much as possible. The lessons in Torah all point to purity and getting as close to the Father as we can, and we can only get close to Him if we go through the Messiah. I’m not saying that Torah leads to salvation, I’m saying it helps us walk pure and be separated from the world. I also don’t feel you have to convert to my way of thinking, I just like sharing what I feel I have found to be truth in my studies for any whom may be interested or help someone whom may be struggling as I once struggled in my life. You two can come at me and insult me in any way you so desire but it won’t shake my faith or harm me in any way, and I’ll always discuss with you peacefully, and never intentionally insult you, as that is not what my Messiah called me to do, He did call me to walk peacefully even when some may not be peaceful back, and share truth whenever possible.
Yeah,I also have had both lives.
With and without Jesus.
The pauline only error is relatively new to me.
I came across it about 3 years ago.
I never approach Gods word as they do with imaginary brackets and forbidden zones.
The thing is,they diminish and dismiss the gospels,not realizing Pauls walk almost mirrors what they reject.
With and without Jesus.
The pauline only error is relatively new to me.
I came across it about 3 years ago.
I never approach Gods word as they do with imaginary brackets and forbidden zones.
The thing is,they diminish and dismiss the gospels,not realizing Pauls walk almost mirrors what they reject.
I saw it raise it's head as Messianism grew over the years. I think they found fertile yeasts to ferment the ideology.
I have a huge red flag with most all religio-politico ideologies. If it doesn't build up it tears down. And if the only message is to tear down you are not lifting anyone up. My master has taught me to offer my hand 'openly' without prejudice. I've not seen him nor known him to teach others to be judgmental 'to one another'. But to do all things in and with love. All judgement is to be brought to God. That's why a wise man stands back and moves way from those who accuse others, especially with righteous indignation. Wise men know that heart will garner the wrath of God and do not want to be anywhere close to them least they suffer from God's judgement as well.
In regards to your last statement, I have noticed a huge correlation between religious and political zealots. They all do what you describe. They project their crimes/fallacies upon those they come against. And, their whole message is one of 'anti' this and 'anti' that, it's always what they are against and how bad 'the others' are. They=good, others=bad. It's a message of division, not a message of reconciliation. The gospel as given by God through Jesus to the disciples was one of reconciliation. It reconciled those who were separated from God to a life in union with God through the Spirit. It offers life, eternal. Not separation. Separation only occurs when you reject the message of life. Then you fade away to nothing. So the enemy seeks to devour all with divisive ideologies that separate each other from the message of reconciliation and forgiveness.
I have a huge red flag with most all religio-politico ideologies. If it doesn't build up it tears down. And if the only message is to tear down you are not lifting anyone up. My master has taught me to offer my hand 'openly' without prejudice. I've not seen him nor known him to teach others to be judgmental 'to one another'. But to do all things in and with love. All judgement is to be brought to God. That's why a wise man stands back and moves way from those who accuse others, especially with righteous indignation. Wise men know that heart will garner the wrath of God and do not want to be anywhere close to them least they suffer from God's judgement as well.
In regards to your last statement, I have noticed a huge correlation between religious and political zealots. They all do what you describe. They project their crimes/fallacies upon those they come against. And, their whole message is one of 'anti' this and 'anti' that, it's always what they are against and how bad 'the others' are. They=good, others=bad. It's a message of division, not a message of reconciliation. The gospel as given by God through Jesus to the disciples was one of reconciliation. It reconciled those who were separated from God to a life in union with God through the Spirit. It offers life, eternal. Not separation. Separation only occurs when you reject the message of life. Then you fade away to nothing. So the enemy seeks to devour all with divisive ideologies that separate each other from the message of reconciliation and forgiveness.
I am not resistent to any input you wish to input, but I expect a mature discussion on what it takes to be saved. And you are right, I have made up my mind about what it takes, but I do like to hear other peoples perspective, so I can compare what I believe to what they believe and see if we can reconcile our differences from the scriptures. I do enjoy the discussion.