Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?

[Magenta]

Everyone is open to constructive criticism, as is Calvin. I'm not a Calvinist. My objection is that people aren't taking the time to learn and make judgment based on what someone has actually proffered, and not what they heard somewhere.

It is apparent that what people are objecting to is their own made-up definitions instead of what terms actually mean.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the
Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will,
emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being
including who we are and what we do. Everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are
like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). We sin because we are sinners by nature.

Total depravity summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man.
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant,
some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption”
or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how
accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen
man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly
understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

the Bible doesn't teach total depravity,

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that:

1—no one is without sin,

2—no one seeks after God,

3—there is no one who is good,

4—their speech is corrupted by sin,

5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and

6—above all, they have no fear of God.

So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach
that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions
so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12). source

 

[Cameron143]

Are you talking about onions again?

Well played.

 

[Cameron143]

It is apparent that what people are objecting to is their own made-up definitions instead of what terms actually mean.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the
Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will,
emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being
including who we are and what we do. Everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are
like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). We sin because we are sinners by nature.

Total depravity summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man.
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant,
some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption”
or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how
accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen
man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly
understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.



The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that:

1—no one is without sin,

2—no one seeks after God,

3—there is no one who is good,

4—their speech is corrupted by sin,

5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and

6—above all, they have no fear of God.

So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach
that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions
so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12). source

Someone was up late doing their homework.
I'm jesting but this is as fine and researched a defense of the topic as I have read. Nice job.

 

[Magenta]

Someone was up late doing their homework.
I'm jesting but this is as fine and researched a defense of the topic as I have read. Nice job.

Thanks It is from gotquestions The source is given at the end, and
yes, I did find it quite late last night or even very early this morning

 

[Magenta]

Only a consequence of their sinful actions. Something definitly CHANGED - but not their nature, which led them to sin to begin with.

Humanity is part of creation. All of creation fell into corruption with Adam's sin.
All of creation is in bondage to decay due to Adam's sin.

Condemnation and corruption for the entire human race followed upon the
sin of Adam, who was originally righteous and in communion with God.

Some describe it as the spiritual death of man. I am not sure how you can say man's nature
did not change at all if he was first alive to God, and then sin made him dead to God.

 

[kaylagrl]

It is apparent that what people are objecting to is their own made-up definitions instead of what terms actually mean.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the
Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will,
emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being
including who we are and what we do. Everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are
like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). We sin because we are sinners by nature.

Total depravity summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man.
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant,
some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption”
or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how
accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen
man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly
understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.



The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that:

1—no one is without sin,

2—no one seeks after God,

3—there is no one who is good,

4—their speech is corrupted by sin,

5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and

6—above all, they have no fear of God.

So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach
that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions
so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12). source

Yes, I read the same thing. But I still do not believe that the Bible teaches that we cannot respond to the Gospel. Nor do I believe there is an elect people and a people created for destruction.

Romans 11 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Speaking of the Jews and the Gentile being grafted in Romans says " if they do not persist in unbelief". That means they have free will to persist or resist.


John Calvin wrote "All of us, therefore, descending from an impure seed, come into the world tainted with the contagion of sin. Nay, before we behold the light of the sun we are in God’s sight defiled and polluted….We thus see that the impurity of parents is transmitted to their children, so that all, without exception, are originally depraved."


Origin (185-253 A.D.) taught that infants are polluted by sin “though the life is but the length of one day upon the earth.”

So if a child dies a moment after it is born it goes to hell? I don't believe that. If a baby is aborted in the womb it goes directly to hell according to this belief. But what did David say? He said he would see his child again, and I'm certain he didn't mean in hell. I don't believe in infant baptism either. It does nothing to benefit the child, it's not taught in the Bible.


Consider the following verses,

“Fathers shall not be put to death for {their} sons, nor shall sons be put to death for {their} fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deut 24:16 NAS).

“Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him” (Ezek 18:19-20).

If sin is imputed then these verses would be false. Our souls were created directly by God and therefore are pure. Sin is an acquired trait, it is a choice. Where did Adam inherit his sin?

The Bible teaches that the practice of either good or evil is a matter of choice. Isaiah declares “that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good” (Isa 7:15)

Human sinfulness commences in that period of life that is called “youth” not from birth. The Lord said, “for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Gen 8:21). Jeremiah wrote, “We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God” (Jer 3:25).

2 Corinthians 5:10, KJV: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:12, KJV: So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Quote "Sin is not something we inherit, but rather something we do. It is an action, a transgression of the law (I Jno. 3:4). Sin is a failing to do what we are capable of doing (James 4:17). How can a baby transgress God’s law or commit sin by not doing what he/she is incapable of doing?

We must not confuse suffering the consequences of Adam’s sin as equivalent to suffering the guilt of Adam’s sin. Children of alcoholic fathers and mothers often suffer the consequences of their parent’s actions. But who would charge that the children are actually guilty of their parent’s transgressions? We do suffer the consequence of Adam’s sin, physical death (Rom. 5:12; I Cor. 15:22). The context of both of these passages has to do with physical death, not spiritual death. As a consequence of Adam’s sin, we shall all die physically (Heb. 9:27). However, as a result of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, we may live again. The doctrine of Total Hereditary Depravity is clearly contrary to Scripture."

 

[Magenta]

Yes, I read the same thing. But I still do not believe that the Bible teaches that we cannot respond
to the Gospel. Nor do I believe there is an elect people and a people created for destruction.

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Speaking of the Jews and the Gentile being grafted in Romans says " if they
do not persist in unbelief". That means they have free will to persist or resist.

Free will is nowhere mentioned in the Bible except as freewill offerings.

The will of man is constrained by too many factors to be truly considered "free."

This does not negate the fact that choices are put before him, and choices made continually throughout life.

The natural man is a slave to sin. That is a Biblical truth. Slaves are not free.

John Calvin wrote "All of us, therefore, descending from an impure seed, come into the world tainted with the contagion of sin. Nay, before we behold the light of the sun we are in God’s sight defiled and polluted….We thus see that the impurity of parents is transmitted to their children, so that all, without exception, are originally depraved."

Origin (185-253 A.D.) taught that infants are polluted by sin “though the life is but the length of one day upon the earth.”

So if a child dies a moment after it is born it goes to hell? I don't believe that. If a baby is aborted in the womb it goes directly to hell according to this belief. But what did David say? He said he would see his child again, and I'm certain he didn't mean in hell. I don't believe in infant baptism either. It does nothing to benefit the child, it's not taught in the Bible.

I do not hold the to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

Human sinfulness commences in that period of life that is called “youth” not from birth. The Lord said, “for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Gen 8:21). Jeremiah wrote, “We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God” (Jer 3:25).

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[kaylagrl]

[QUOTE="Magenta, post: 4995073, member: 22350]
Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.[/QUOTE]


Born with the potential to sin, the tendency to sin. But I do not believe a baby can be held responsible morally, nor can a child who does not understand good from evil. Even our secular courts understand the concept of an age of understanding. We do not punish underage children for a reason. And I believe the Bible teaches the same. I new born babe is incapable of speaking at all, let alone understanding the truth from a lie.

 

[kaylagrl]

Free will is nowhere mentioned in the Bible except as freewill offerings.

The will of man is constrained by too many factors to be truly considered "free."

This does not negate the fact that choices are put before him, and choices made continually throughout life.

The natural man is a slave to sin. That is a Biblical truth. Slaves are not free.
.

Neither is trinity mentioned in the Bible, but the concept is there. The Bible gives verses that talk of choosing to serve God, to continue in the faith, to not turn back, to repent. Not trying to be contrary, just adding another POV. I do understand there are people who don't hold to all TULIP points and there are some who believe in parts of it. So it can get confusing. But as I pointed out in my post I do not believe sin is inherited. I believe we suffer the consequences from the fall, but we do not inherit sin. We choose whether we sin. I am guilty for my sin, not my fathers sin.

 

[kaylagrl]

OK. As you can't or won't give an explanation for the distinction between sin and depravity and can't or won't illustrate depravity, I won't pursue this further and will leave you to your dogmatic view which you can't defend.

I have to apologize for my last posts to you. As I am digging this is deeper than I first thought. When you asked "What is sin" ? I figured that was an easily answered question by everyone here, so why answer. Now I see that there are different ideas on sin and how we came to sin as humans. I am looking much deeper and I appreciate that because I never thought I was good at study, but if I have a question I do want to find an answer. And it will bug me until I find the answer. So even if our answer isn't the same, it has made me look deeper into what I believe and why I believe it. Thanks for pushing me into a deeper search.

 

[Magenta]

Neither is trinity mentioned in the Bible, but the concept is there. The Bible gives verses that talk of choosing to serve God, to continue in the faith, to not turn back, to repent. Not trying to be contrary, just adding another POV. I do understand there are people who don't hold to all TULIP points and there are some who believe in parts of it. So it can get confusing. But as I pointed out in my post I do not believe sin is inherited. I believe we suffer the consequences from the fall, but we do not inherit sin. We choose whether we sin. I am guilty for my sin, not my fathers sin.

The concept of total depravity is the same in terms of not being named as such, but the concept is certainly in the Bible.

All sin. None are righteous. So that is central to the issue. Men are born enemies to God and hostile towards Him.

"Total depravity" summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I can believe that TOTAL DEPRAVITY relates to someone who committed the Sin of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit because [(Fallen Man)] concept is still someone who has hope because they're still eligible for God to knock on their hearts.

But then again, I deal with factual conceptions, not 15th Century idealism created by fools.

 

[Magenta]

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the
hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[WillB]

I just gave it to you using Scripture. You can respond, you do have free will. Everyone here knows what we are talking about. Why say repent, come, drink it TD is true?! Stop blowing at the fur and get to the hide. We all know what we're talking about, it's been done to death here a million times. smh

In your opinion.


If you accept the definition below as describing total depravity accurately please show where it is unscriptural.
https://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter1.html
Extract:
“The result of the fall is total depravity or corruption. By this is meant that every part of man is rendered corrupt. The Canons say that man "became involved in blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity, perverseness of judgment; became wicked, rebellious, obdurate in heart and will and impure in his affection." There was no part of his nature that was not affected by sin. The word "total" must not be taken in the absolute sense as though man is completely depraved. Man is not as bad as he can be. Article 4, which we hope to consider more fully later in this series, speaks of "glimmerings of natural light which remain in man since the fall." God does restrain the working of sin in the life of man on earth. And sinful man still has a sense of right and wrong. His corruption is total in the sense that there is no part of his being that is pure and holy; and the good he does is done for God and for His glory.”

 

[WillB]

And there you go again. Like I said, you have a pat answer no matter who answers you. So you have nothing to add to the conversation. Why bother?

In your opinion.


If you accept the definition below as describing total depravity accurately please show where it is unscriptural.
https://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter1.html
Extract:
“The result of the fall is total depravity or corruption. By this is meant that every part of man is rendered corrupt. The Canons say that man "became involved in blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity, perverseness of judgment; became wicked, rebellious, obdurate in heart and will and impure in his affection." There was no part of his nature that was not affected by sin. The word "total" must not be taken in the absolute sense as though man is completely depraved. Man is not as bad as he can be. Article 4, which we hope to consider more fully later in this series, speaks of "glimmerings of natural light which remain in man since the fall." God does restrain the working of sin in the life of man on earth. And sinful man still has a sense of right and wrong. His corruption is total in the sense that there is no part of his being that is pure and holy; and the good he does is done for God and for His glory.”

 

[WillB]

Romans 2:10-16 isn't a dogmatic opinion. It debunks total depravity.

Why not just go with what the Bible says?

It's the Bible that informs my views - not opinions of men.


If you accept the definition below as describing total depravity accurately please show where it is unscriptural.
https://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter1.html
Extract:
“The result of the fall is total depravity or corruption. By this is meant that every part of man is rendered corrupt. The Canons say that man "became involved in blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity, perverseness of judgment; became wicked, rebellious, obdurate in heart and will and impure in his affection." There was no part of his nature that was not affected by sin. The word "total" must not be taken in the absolute sense as though man is completely depraved. Man is not as bad as he can be. Article 4, which we hope to consider more fully later in this series, speaks of "glimmerings of natural light which remain in man since the fall." God does restrain the working of sin in the life of man on earth. And sinful man still has a sense of right and wrong. His corruption is total in the sense that there is no part of his being that is pure and holy; and the good he does is done for God and for His glory.”

 

[WillB]

Looks like you do not like the Bible's dogmatic assertions, since my posts are substantiated by Scripture.

I haven't seen anything from you - apart from bold assertions - in the way of Scripture to support your opinion.


If you accept the definition below as describing total depravity accurately please show where it is unscriptural.
https://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter1.html
Extract:
“The result of the fall is total depravity or corruption. By this is meant that every part of man is rendered corrupt. The Canons say that man "became involved in blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity, perverseness of judgment; became wicked, rebellious, obdurate in heart and will and impure in his affection." There was no part of his nature that was not affected by sin. The word "total" must not be taken in the absolute sense as though man is completely depraved. Man is not as bad as he can be. Article 4, which we hope to consider more fully later in this series, speaks of "glimmerings of natural light which remain in man since the fall." God does restrain the working of sin in the life of man on earth. And sinful man still has a sense of right and wrong. His corruption is total in the sense that there is no part of his being that is pure and holy; and the good he does is done for God and for His glory.”

 

[WillB]

I have to apologize for my last posts to you. As I am digging this is deeper than I first thought. When you asked "What is sin" ? I figured that was an easily answered question by everyone here, so why answer. Now I see that there are different ideas on sin and how we came to sin as humans. I am looking much deeper and I appreciate that because I never thought I was good at study, but if I have a question I do want to find an answer. And it will bug me until I find the answer. So even if our answer isn't the same, it has made me look deeper into what I believe and why I believe it. Thanks for pushing me into a deeper search.

Okay. Your humility is very refreshing and such a mindset can lead to a correct and deeper understanding of who God is....and you may find this article - it's quite lengthy but well worth reading - by highly regarded theologian, R C Sproul, sadly no longer with us, most enlightening.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/creation-freed-decay

 

[Nehemiah6]

If you accept the definition below as describing total depravity accurately please show where it is unscriptural.

I already quoted the passage from Romans 2 to show that this definition is false. "There is none righteous, no not one" tells us that all human beings are sinners, since they inherited the sin nature from Adam. But that does not nullify the fact that unsaved people can still do good and still do righteous deeds. The example of the Gentile Roman centurion who did good deeds in Israel is a good example.

 

[Magenta]

I already quoted the passage from Romans 2 to show that this definition is false. "There is none righteous, no not one" tells us that all human beings are sinners, since they inherited the sin nature from Adam. But that does not nullify the fact that unsaved people can still do good and still do righteous deeds. The example of the Gentile Roman centurion who did good deeds in Israel is a good example.

Theologians have never considered humans to be totally unable to do good outwardly as a result of the fall.

Still, man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us
that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible
teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive
by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves
the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore,
men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin.
Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they
reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God;
for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).