Does getting the "Trib" correct help?

studentoftheword · Sep 12, 2023

ewq1938 said:

The saints aren't ever subject to God's vengeance so no protection is needed. Why would you even think that? God says the saints are subject to the wrath of satan and that the saints will be killed by the beast. No protection from God against satan's wrath.[/QUOTE]

You said --------The saints aren't ever subject to God's vengeance so no protection is needed. Why would you even think that?

That is so correct -----they aren't ----so why do you think that God would send them into His 7 year tribulation to endure His vengeance ----Jesus is unleashing the 7 seals and the 7 bowls not Satan -------and Jesus is the one sending and allowing Satan and the anti --Christ to reign for a certain time on this earth during the Tribulation ----this is God's war against sin and evil ------

You Said ------
God says the saints are subject to the wrath of satan and that the saints will be killed by the beast.

So I challenge you ------
To quote the Scripture in Revelations that says that the Pre--Trib Saints are subject to the wrath of Satan during the 7 year Tribulation

I await your Scripture posting ------on the Pre--Tri Saints -------not the unbelievers in the Tribulation who become Saints-----

You said -----
No protection from God against satan's wrath -----

Well I say -------He is protecting the 12 tribes of Israel against the wrath -----so you theory is wrong -------

God can protect who God wants to protect -----and Satan has no say in the matter -----

I say -----
Well that is not what God says here -----as He promises this Pre--trib Saints protection against the evil one --

So what is it that you don't understand in this piece of Scripture -----pretty plain and straight forward to me -----so if the Pre--Trib Saints are in the Tribulation then God has to honor His Promise as this says HE WILL ----this is a Promise -----it doesn't say He might ---or He may --it says He WILL ------that is for now and in the future ----

Satan and the Anti--Christ are the evil ones in the end times -------

This is commentary on scripture above from People's Commentary -----

2 Thessalonians 3:3

II Thessalonians 3:3 The Lord is faithful. Men may be unbelievers, and hostile, but the Lord is faithful to every promise, and in spite of evil men will keep [you] from evil. From the power of the evil one.

So this throws your theory out the window

God has to protect His Pre-Trib Saints if they are in the tribulation ------that is His promise ----

I think You hearing Satan;s voice about who God's Tribulation is for ------He has you believing wrongly ----

This is God's Wrath that He personally bringing to this earth on Sinners Not Saints and is fulfilling a prophecy ----Satan and the Anti--Christ are just God's Puppets in God's bid to Save as many people as He can so there are few who go to Hell -----Anyone who is Born Again today had their iniquity dealt with -----Jesus Took our iniquity -----
Isaiah 53:5
he was crushed for our iniquities----

GaryA · Sep 12, 2023

@studentoftheword - when you understand the difference between 'condemnation' and 'tribulation' - you should be able to answer your own question...

The Dark Ages martyrs (the souls under the altar) experienced 'tribulation' but no 'condemnation'.

GaryA · Sep 12, 2023

'tribulation' happens in this life; 'condemnation' happens afterward

When God says that there is no condemnation - He is not saying that there will be no tribulation.

ewq1938 · Sep 12, 2023

studentoftheword said:

It is not His tribulation. God says it is a war that satan wages against Christians in the last verse of Rev 12.

God says the saints are subject to the wrath of satan and that the saints will be killed by the beast.

Click to expand...

The word "Pre-trib" does not appear in the bible so why are you asking for a verse that has it?

Jesus is going to say something different than you do:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.

DJT_47 · Sep 12, 2023

ewq1938 said:

You haven't properly segregated the events described in Matt 24, Luke21, and Mark 13 nor read the history of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The below provides a good blow-by-blow description of 70 AD. Follow the links.

https://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm

studentoftheword · Sep 12, 2023

GaryA said:

These Martyrs who's souls are under the alter are perceived to be Jews who were marked by God and have come to the faith during the tribulation and it is their souls that are crying out ------this has nothing to do with us the pre-Trib Saints or Church age Saints who I believe will be Raptured before the tribulation starts -----the 144,000 are Jews and are marked by God so they will all be saved in the end as God is keeping His Covenant Promise with His first nation ---the Jews refused to acknowledge Christ as their saviour and therefore are unbelievers -----but God out of His faithfulness ---love and mercy chose to mark the 144,000 and save them ----these 144;000 if you do your research are Jews who never married and are virgins ---Revelation 7----

The the many who believe that we the church age Saints will be going through the tribulation ---who are us now ----God Promise is to Protect His people -----from any vengeance -----we are already saved and therefore any of us who are alive that go through this horror God will have to honor His promise of Protection -----and no where in Revelations does God say anything about the church age Saints going through the Tribulation or give any hint as to what He would use the church age saints for ------there is no mention of God using us to preach the Gospel ---or to do anything during that time -----so to me that makes no sense that God would have all these Church age Saints running scared and bewildered and being slaughtered and have no use for them in some form of capacity---what is the point of the Church age Saints going through the tribulation --- ?????????????????????????????????????????????

You can read all here I am just posting this

https://www.bibleref.com/Revelation/6/Revelation-6-10.html

chapter 7's description of believers "sealed" by God, suggests these martyrs are Jewish believers converted during the time of the tribulation, not present-era Christians. Believers of the present, the "church age," are told to respond to maltreatment with kindness.
When Stephen, a church-age believer, was being martyred, he exemplified the manner in which Christians ought to respond to maltreatment. He cried out loudly, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." (Acts 7:60).

The souls under the altar recognize God's absolute right to have allowed their martyrdom. They address him as "Sovereign." They also attest to His holy character. Being holy, God cannot commit any wrongdoing. Therefore, God did nothing wrong in allowing their martyrdom. Further, they address God as "true," literally, "perfect." He did not, nor could He, make any mistake in allowing these tribulation believers to be martyred

studentoftheword · Sep 12, 2023

Nehemiah6 · Sep 12, 2023

ewq1938 said:

Now this is pure baloney. "Made up Jesus"? "imaginary rapture"??? More ignorance on your part. And you are FALSELY ACCUSING sound Christian brethren of "loving apostasia". Which means that you are working for the Enemy on this forum.

ewq1938 · Sep 12, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Nope. Pretrib believes apostasia is not apostasy but rather a departure in the Rapture. It's horrifically poetic.

ewq1938 · Sep 12, 2023

DJT_47 said:

I have which is how I know that not any part of the OD has happened yet.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 12, 2023

ewq1938 said:

Apostasia is DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH. Not the Rapture.

SomeDisciple · Sep 12, 2023

Being dead-set on a wrong eschatology can dreadfully impact a person's worldview; so, the advantage of being right, is that you're not wrong.

This stuff is in the scripture for a reason... I would feel really awkward trying to explain to God that I didn't want to "expend energy" to understand his word.

Now, I get that I'm a single guy, and that people with marriages, kids, and other arduous duties may not be able to expend the same energy as me on bible study, and that's reasonable. Everybody has their own level of due diligence- but everyone has SOME due diligence.

ewq1938 · Sep 12, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Sure but Pretrib believes apostasia is the rapture.

DJT_47 · Sep 12, 2023

ewq1938 said:

Great! You think you know. Goodbye. Think and believe what you like.

Fillan · Sep 12, 2023

Lamar said:

hello! In one sense all believers are looking forward to the return of the Lord, making the most of every opportunity and the time we have and looking forward to being with the Lord and together with loved ones who have passed on. However I also think that understanding what the bible says about the End Times is IMO important and can affect your worldview and your beliefs on other biblical topics. Obviously someone who believes they will be going through the destruction and strife of the Great Tribulation will have a somewhat different outlook than someone who believes they will be caught up before the Great Tribulation begins. Also the questions what is the purpose of the Great Tribulation and why would a believer go through it? That could influence what you believe about salvation, eternal security and the like. On a practical level are we preparing for years of Tribulation such as the world has never seen, plague, death and scorching, blood, fire and pillars of smoke? Or to meet the Lord in the air. God Bless

GaryA · Sep 12, 2023

studentoftheword said:

Church age Saints went through the horror of the Dark Ages. What was/is the point of that?

Both the souls under the altar and the ones they are waiting for to "be killed as they were" --- are all 'tribulation saints'.

If the souls under the altar are the future 'tribulation saints' as you think - who exactly are the group they are having to wait for?

If the 'tribulation saints' are the first group - who are the second group?

The Dark Ages martyrs are 'tribulation saints'.

The 'worship the beast or die' martyrs are 'tribulation saints'.

These are the two groups.

Think about it...

jb · Sep 13, 2023

Lamar said:

It is critical to get the truth of the 2nd Coming of Christ, and hence the Resurrection and Rapture correct, failure to do so will result in back-sliding and apostasy during the Great Tribulation, as Matt 24v45-25v13 demonstrates clearly!

awelight · Sep 13, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

After reading your post, I don't really know how to reply to it. You have so many things going on in it. Some I agree with and others, not so much. So I will attempt to slow it down a bit.

You are correct in saying that the Pre-Trib. Rapture is the one that carries some sense of purpose. You said: "..I can understand if Jesus takes us up if the rapture was before the Great Tribulation to wait things out..." It is not so much that we are being taken out so we can wait things out but to be kept safe from the judgements of God being poured out upon the world and the hardships these create. In this same way, Noah and the seven with him, rode safely above the wrath of the flood. God placed them in the Ark of safety. God closed the door behind them. They looked not upon the judgement of God which befell the whole world.

The 144,000, who are sealed Jews, for God's purpose during the Great Tribulation, are indeed witnesses. For who has ever heard of someone being "sealed" and not witnessing. Christians are sealed by the Holy Spirit, (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13), and one of our principle works here on earth is to witness. Why, would you think these 144,000 would not witness for Christ?

As to Revelation 3:10, and it's promise - we need to take note of two things and this will require getting into the original Koine Greek to see the full understanding of this verse. You posted this: "I understand "keep thee from the hour of trial" to simply mean that God will keep our salvation in Him safely, not so much as take us out of the situation."

"..keep thee from the hour of trial...", is "τηρήσω ἐκ τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ". The first thing I wish to point out, is the Greek word ἐκ, which in most Bible translations is translated with the English word: "from", and this is OK; however, we need to understand the full implications of this Greek preposition. It carries the meaning of: "out of", as in taken out of or in our case "keep thee out of".

The second thing is the Greek word translated "hour" - ὥρας. Which carries the meaning of "a determined period of time". It has been translated with the English words: "hour", "day", "season". Here are a few examples, of it's use in Scripture, where it does not mean "hour":
Mat 14:15 And when even was come, the disciples came to him, saying, The place is desert, and the time is already past; send the multitudes away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves food.
1Th 2:17 But we, brethren, being bereaved of you for a short season, in presence not in heart, endeavored the more exceedingly to see your face with great desire:
John 5:35 He was the lamp that burneth and shineth; and ye were willing to rejoice for a season in his light.

If we put this all together... then we see that the promise is to keep believers "out of" this coming period of trial. Remember also, this is not just any "trial", this is the one that ".. shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Only a Pre-Trib. Rapture can accomplish this purpose and mirror the OT safety of the Ark. The "Universal" church of believers shall be riding high above this which is to come upon the whole world.

awelight · Sep 13, 2023

ewq1938 said:

In Pretrib Jesus descends out of heaven meets the raptured then yo-yo's back up to heaven. What happens in Post-trib isn't a yo-yo action.

You don't understand the purpose of the rapture. Christ wants the living saints on Earth to join his army behind him. In order for that to happen the saints will be raised up into the air to a place in the clouds. These people were spread out all through the Earth so this rapture is a literal gathering from all over to one specific place, join the army and follow Christ.

And not a word of that originates from any book of the bible. It's pure imagination.

Yet Pretrib NEVER quotes this verse:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.

2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. The truth is that neither is talking about the rapture or the great tribulation.

So which is it? No tribulation or some? Pre-trib is inconsistent and misleading when they cite Rev 3:10 and not also Rev 2:10.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

3. "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ was kept from falling for any of the devil's temptations. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual escape.

I really don't know why I am replying to this post. I mean, this post and the others on this subject are crazedly mixed up. I will just say this in reply.

You stated:
The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.

2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. The truth is that neither is talking about the rapture or the great tribulation.

I have NO idea what your point is in #1.
1/7 of the churches? What are you talking about?

You obviously do not understand the difference between the "Local" aspect of the church and the "Universal" aspect of the church.

studentoftheword · Sep 13, 2023

GaryA said:

Church age Saints went through the horror of the Dark Ages. What was/is the point of that?[/QUOTE

Gary ----it is alright ----the Church age saints will be Raptured before the horror starts --That is my belief -----
we are in the church age -GaryA------

Read all here -----
https://www.gotquestions.org/church-age.html

The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost (Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth. It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace. In prophetic history, it falls between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11). Jesus predicted the Church Age in Matthew 16:18 when He said, “I will build my church.” Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.

GaryA----see this ---we the Saints are here in the church age ---some are dead and some alive ----all will be Raptured -----the dead first then the living -----then we are judged at the seat of Christ -----

Don Stewart :: How Many Resurrections Will There Be?

Read all yourselves --just posting this part ----this is how this guy sees it -------

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_138.cfm

Interesting summary ----

Summary

Although some Christians believe there will be only one general resurrection at the end of time, Scripture seems to speak of more than one resurrection. The first resurrection will be that of believers while the second resurrection will be that of unbelievers. The resurrections in Scripture do not all happen at once. The first resurrection refers to the resurrection of all believers, though separated in time. There has been over nineteen hundred and fifty years between the resurrection of Christ, and the rapture of the church - which is still future. After the church is raptured and resurrected, there will be the resurrection of the tribulation saints- those who have died for their testimony of Christ during the Great Tribulation.
At that time the Old Testament saints will also be raised. After the thousand year reign of Christ on the earth, the Millennium, there will be one final resurrection. This will be the unrighteous dead from all time as well as the millennial saints - those who have believed in Christ during the Millennium. After the Great White Throne judgment, there will be no more

Does getting the "Trib" correct help?

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