Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[BroTan]

You bring all the relevant points together here, but one thing is left amiss. Some people do not understand that IMMEDIATLY after the Tribulation of those days means after God's 1260 days of Judgment which only BEGINS with the Day of the Lord (Sun and Moon event), but WHICH ENDS, with the 7th Vial. This Jesus shows up at the 7th Vial and ENDS God's Wrath by speaking victory.

I wouldn't even look at the Seals at all, they are not actionable in any way, the Seals are Jesus opening up a Sealed Scroll of COMING Judgments, which can only be brought to pass after all 7 have been opened, that is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8, and thus after it is opened there is ten silence in Heaven, and the Angels can be seen readying the Trumpet Judgments, we also see the Angels readying the Vial Judgments, but not the "SEAL JUDGMENTS" because they do not actually exist !! Jesus, as he opens each seal is Prophesying what is about to befall mankind after the 7th Seal is finally opened.

Think of it as a Closet with 7 Locks on it, you have been given gifts, your friends come over, as you open ach lock you describe the contents behind the door to your friends, as you open lock #1 you tell them about the Guitar, as you open lock #2 you tell them about the Gold Leaf Bible, as you open the 6th lock you tell your friends about this nice box of chocolates..............QUESTION? Has anyone seen anything in the closet yet? No, of course not, there is still ONE MORE LOCK on the closet door, that is how the 7 Seal Scroll works with Jesus !! The Seals are PROPHETIC UTERRINGS of soon to come events !! THINK NOW, if you opened the 7th lock would you say anything, or simply just open the door and show your friends the gifts behind the door? Talking time is OVER !!

Seal's 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 ALL describe the Anti-Christs 42 month rule of terror, WATCH:

1. The Anti-Christ (White Horse) Conquers and rules for 42 months.
2. He takes away his original fake peace agreements by bringing Wars for 42 months (Red Horse).
3. His Wars bring Famine as all wars do, he makes people worship him in order to buy and sell (Black Horse)
4. The Anti-Christ/Beasts/Tyrants 42 month rule will bring sickness/death and the Grave. (Pale Green Horse)

5.) Jesus foretells of his evil tyrant coming 42 month rule which will kill the Gentile Saints who come unto Christ during the 70th week, Jesus thus tells them they MUST WAIT until this man has killed all of their brothers in like manner, God Himself protects Israel in order to fulfill His promise unto Abraham. In Rev. 20:4 they are the raised and judged, and lie with Jesus on this earth for 1000 years. THEY ALONE do this, their judgment is after the 2nd Coming.

The Six Seal however describes the soon to come Day of the Lord.

6.) Now, Jesus foretells of God's SOON TO COME Wrath, he foretells about the coming Day of the Lord Events. They do not happen here, Jesus is prophesying what will come to pass in mere days, AFTER he finally opens the 7th Seal or the 7th Lock on the ole Closet Door !! Jesus will say nothing, Judgment is now at hand !!

7.) Jesus opens the 7th Door and there is SILENCE in heaven, the Trumpet Judgments are readied by the 7 Angels. The first four Trumps begins the Day of the Lord, ALL FOUR are the exact same event, an Asteroid crashing into the Sea somewhere, my guess is in the Pacific Realm.

NOTICE: The Fire comes in first (Trump #1), just before the impact. Then in Trump #2 we get THE IMPACT into the Sea. In Trumpet #3, we are shown the exact same impact, but Gid retells it as coming in hot/on fire, as a "Star" or burning asteroid, because Gd is EMPHASIZING the fact tat when this thing blows up its going to poison (WORMWOOD) 1/3 of the earths fresh waters. I personally think the 1/3 in each judgment is a dead give away as per to the LOCATION, you see the Pacific Ocea has 1/3 of all the water on this earth, nd oceans can not cross each other because they have a different weight of some kind, its weird but true. Then when we add up North and South America, it has 1/3 of the Landmass of the the earth. I thig the 1/3 is God telling us where this Asteroid is going to hit !!

Then the BIG coup de gras !! The Fourth Trump does what in Rev. 8 ? It turns the earth dark by 1/3 via the Sun, Moon and Stars not giving their full light. That simply means the smoke from the Asteroid Impact and the 1/3 of the earths burning trees get up into the jet stream and starts blocking the suns light somewhat, THUS the first four Trumps are ONE Asteroid Impact, and it FULFILLS the 6th Seal Prophecy by Jesus which is also the Joel 2:31 Prophecy being fulfilled !!

You bring all the relevant points together here, but one thing is left amiss. Some people do not understand that IMMEDIATLY after the Tribulation of those days means after God's 1260 days of Judgment which only BEGINS with the Day of the Lord (Sun and Moon event), but WHICH ENDS, with the 7th Vial. This Jesus shows up at the 7th Vial and ENDS God's Wrath by speaking victory.

I'm glad you added the number of the days of the Great Tribulation. Let's go to Daniel 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

We pretty much here now, brothers and sisters. This is the time Daniel was writing about and knowledge is increasing over the world concerning these end times. But not all going to take heed. 5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

There's thats 3 1/2 yrs again. Notice the holy people scatter. Because some will reach the place of safety and some will be killed, tried, or tormented. No rapture brothers and sisters, this is happening on earth.

Let's confirm these times and more in Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The Lord will save His people the same way as He did before in Egypt, just on a larger scale. This time He will save them from all over the world. They came out from Egypt with Pharaoh's army on their heels. Note the similarity below.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood (Revelation 12:13-15)

The man-child is of course Jesus. The woman represents the nation of Israel physically and spiritually. When the Lord brought Israel out before He stated, “Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself "(Exodus 19:4).

In Revelation, we have the same statement. “And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle.” This is symbolism; we know Israel walked into the wilderness. This time when the sign comes to pass stated in Matthew the 24th chapter verse 15 through 16 you must find your own means of transportation. Whatever it may be, plane or boat it will be at no cost to you. The same place the Lord took Israel before is where you must be at the time appointed: not before or after. And when those of us that keep the Law get there you don't have to worry about food or water it will be provided for us. This is why the verse states, “that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. This is the great tribulation, which will last 3 ½ years (time one year, times plural two years and a half of time ½ year). The flood represents an army; this is none other than EU’s army. But it will be to no avail. This is when the statement used by the so-called Christians today will come into affect, “no weapon formed against me shall prosper.” The angels will have charge over us that make it. If you don't make it into the wilderness, what ever you do, do not accept the mark of the beast

 

[Rondonmon]

I'm glad you added the number of the days of the Great Tribulation. Let's go to Daniel 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

We pretty much here now, brothers and sisters. This is the time Daniel was writing about and knowledge is increasing over the world concerning these end times. But not all going to take heed. 5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

There's thats 3 1/2 yrs again. Notice the holy people scatter. Because some will reach the place of safety and some will be killed, tried, or tormented. No rapture brothers and sisters, this is happening on earth.

There will be no Rapture indeed in the middle of the week for Israel, they will have to flee unto the mountains, those who become Christians during the 70th week will also face troubles but will mostly be killed for their faith (Martyrs). The Rapture of the Church is Pre Trib, so why would I expect a Rapture mid Trib?

 

[TMS]

Come to LIFE. CHRIST IS THE LIFE, WE ARE MADE ALIVE. It is an eternal ALIVE. There are NO PAUSES IN ETERNAL LIFE.

When does the gift of eternal life start? When does probation close? When are we judged? How are we judged?
It is obvious that the body is made new at the second coming.

 

[TMS]

Protestantism.....?

Did Martin Luther believe in soul sleep or in an immortal soul that survives death? There are generally two views concerning the state of the dead among Christians.

The first view asserts that when a person dies, his soul survives death and continues to exist in some place. For those who are saved, they go straight into paradise. For those who are not so righteous, they go into some halfway house called purgatory (Catholic view) where they are purified and made ready for paradise. For those who are rebellious sinners they go straight to hell to suffer in the eternal flames, but never able to die. For most Protestants, there is no intermediate place; one goes to hell 2 or heaven after death. The basic agreement here is that the righteous and sinful soul are both immortal. Catholic teaching explicitly affirms the immortality of the soul.

The 2nd position, sometimes called soul sleep, believes that the soul is not a separate entity from the body. The body is a soul. We are all living souls. At death there is no surviving entity called the soul. The soul is dead; it is not immortal. In other words, the soul is simply the person, not a part of the person. It does not and cannot survive death. The person in this state is totally unaware of anything; the Bible calls it a sleep. The soul is not in hell, heaven or purgatory because it doesn’t exist. At the resurrection the person is raised again from the dead and becomes a living soul.

Which of these two positions did Luther agree with?
English reformer William Tyndale in the time of Luther argued against Thomas Moore in favour of soulsleep.
Luther stated many times that the Christian dead are unaware of anything for they see not, feel not, understand not. They are asleep oblivious to all passing events. More than one hundred times scattered over the years, Luther declared death to be a sleep and repeatedly asserted that in death there is total unconsciousness, and consequent unawareness of the passage of time.

quote..... "But we Christians. . . should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong, sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus’ bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truly is just this; for he testifies, John 11:21; Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus, too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv. 42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in a natural body and will rise a spiritual body.
“Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals,” (1542), in Works of Martin Luther, 6 vols.

"....we should learn to view our death in the right light, so that we need not become alarmed on account of it, as unbelief does; because in Christ it is indeed not death, but a fine, sweet and brief sleep, which brings us release from this vale of tears, from sin and from the fear and extremity of real death and from all the misfortunes of this life, and we shall be secure and without care, ....until the time when he shall call and awaken us together with all his dear children to his eternal glory and joy. For since we call it a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be asleep. Hence, we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in the clouds.
The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, ed. and trans. John Nicholas Lenker, 8 vols (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2000), 5: 359...

 

[kleronomos]

Our gathering to meet the Lord will be in the clouds, the dead will rise first then we which be alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. This is the Rapture as taught by Paul.

What YOU are opposed to is a pre-tribulation rapture, so am I, Jesus cannot come at any moment as they suppose, first there comes the rebellion and Antichrist is revealed.

What 2nd Thess corrects is the doctrine that the resurrection of the just had already taken place and so all who had died in the Lord had missed it.

I am sorry but calling the Second Coming 'rapture' is like calling Passover 'easter'. Seriously that is how much it offends me. Rapture is a man made and named false doctrine and we should never IMO insert our words into Gods or call the High Holy Day of Christianity by a pagan gods name.

 

[ewq1938]

Rapture is a man made and named false doctrine

No, it's not man made. It originates from the Greek manuscripts:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation has ended known as "post-trib".

 

[Jackson123]

I'm glad you added the number of the days of the Great Tribulation. Let's go to Daniel 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

We pretty much here now, brothers and sisters. This is the time Daniel was writing about and knowledge is increasing over the world concerning these end times. But not all going to take heed. 5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

There's thats 3 1/2 yrs again. Notice the holy people scatter. Because some will reach the place of safety and some will be killed, tried, or tormented. No rapture brothers and sisters, this is happening on earth.

Let's confirm these times and more in Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The Lord will save His people the same way as He did before in Egypt, just on a larger scale. This time He will save them from all over the world. They came out from Egypt with Pharaoh's army on their heels. Note the similarity below.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood (Revelation 12:13-15)

The man-child is of course Jesus. The woman represents the nation of Israel physically and spiritually. When the Lord brought Israel out before He stated, “Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself "(Exodus 19:4).

In Revelation, we have the same statement. “And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle.” This is symbolism; we know Israel walked into the wilderness. This time when the sign comes to pass stated in Matthew the 24th chapter verse 15 through 16 you must find your own means of transportation. Whatever it may be, plane or boat it will be at no cost to you. The same place the Lord took Israel before is where you must be at the time appointed: not before or after. And when those of us that keep the Law get there you don't have to worry about food or water it will be provided for us. This is why the verse states, “that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. This is the great tribulation, which will last 3 ½ years (time one year, times plural two years and a half of time ½ year). The flood represents an army; this is none other than EU’s army. But it will be to no avail. This is when the statement used by the so-called Christians today will come into affect, “no weapon formed against me shall prosper.” The angels will have charge over us that make it. If you don't make it into the wilderness, what ever you do, do not accept the mark of the beast

Yep, I believe post trib rapture

I don't know if will like the way Israel out of agypt or not event it is, israel not out till the last plague. Persecution going on, the King of agypt not let people go till last plague.
About great tribulation, a lot of verse say the antichrist will make war against the saint/Christian, some will be kill or in jail, that mean not rapture yet, rapture happen immediately after tribulation

 

[Evmur]

If this is all that is meant, then good. But, most people, who hear the word "rapture" picture resurrected and raptured believers GOING TO HEAVEN. That is not true.

"In My Fathers house are many mansions ... I go to prepare a place for you that where I am you might be also"

... He wasn't going to Jerusalem

 

[Evmur]

I am sorry but calling the Second Coming 'rapture' is like calling Passover 'easter'. Seriously that is how much it offends me. Rapture is a man made and named false doctrine and we should never IMO insert our words into Gods or call the High Holy Day of Christianity by a pagan gods name.

If I get caught up together with those who sleep in the Lord to meet Him in the clouds I think my heart will be raptured

 

[John146]

No, it's not man made. It originates from the Greek manuscripts:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation has ended known as "post-trib".

If you believe the body of Christ will go through the great tribulation, then which part of His body? All of it? Just part of His body? Only a small portion will suffer great tribulation?

 

[Evmur]

If you believe the body of Christ will go through the great tribulation, then which part of His body? All of it? Just part of His body? Only a small portion will suffer great tribulation?

Yes the great persecution is coming, we shall be hated of all men for His name's sake. I think more will be martyred than will be raptured.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
If this is all that is meant, then good. But, most people, who hear the word "rapture" picture resurrected and raptured believers GOING TO HEAVEN. That is not true.

"In My Fathers house are many mansions ... I go to prepare a place for you that where I am you might be also"

... He wasn't going to Jerusalem

Then you don't realize that what Jesus said has ALREADY been accomplished. Jesus said this BEFORE He died on the cross. And He DID "go to prepare a place" for His disciples.

By telling His 11 remaining disciples that, He was assuring them that they would go to heaven when they died.

John 14 has NOTHING to do with resurrection or raptue.

Since the Bible plainly speaks of the resurrection of the saved in the singular, explain how that can occur before the Trip when Rev 20:5 tells us the resurrection of trib martyrs are in the FIRST of 2 resurrections, the other one being a resurrection of the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 says very clearly that there will be ONE for the saved and ONE for the unsaved.

Check it out.

 

[Rondonmon]

I am sorry but calling the Second Coming 'rapture' is like calling Passover 'easter'. Seriously that is how much it offends me. Rapture is a man made and named false doctrine and we should never IMO insert our words into Gods or call the High Holy Day of Christianity by a pagan gods name.

You clearly don't need to be teaching anything about prophecy because you are not only clueless on it, you actually think everyone else but you is wrong.

Its nit even that hard to understand the difference between the Second Coming and the Rapture of the Church, but you are blinded by Satan on these things.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Its nit even that hard to understand the difference between the Second Coming and the Rapture of the Church, but you are blinded by Satan on these things.

I think everyone understands the difference between them.

The issue is when each one occurs. 2 These 2:1 clearly shows that they occur together. Or prove me wrong.

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
If this is all that is meant, then good. But, most people, who hear the word "rapture" picture resurrected and raptured believers GOING TO HEAVEN. That is not true.


Then you don't realize that what Jesus said has ALREADY been accomplished. Jesus said this BEFORE He died on the cross. And He DID "go to prepare a place" for His disciples.

By telling His 11 remaining disciples that, He was assuring them that they would go to heaven when they died.

John 14 has NOTHING to do with resurrection or raptue.

Since the Bible plainly speaks of the resurrection of the saved in the singular, explain how that can occur before the Trip when Rev 20:5 tells us the resurrection of trib martyrs are in the FIRST of 2 resurrections, the other one being a resurrection of the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 says very clearly that there will be ONE for the saved and ONE for the unsaved.

Check it out.

And how does that change anything? SURE we ALL know on the last day of this age CHRIST is returning and 'the DEAD WILL RISE AND THE ALIVE and remaining will be changed.' I don't think anyone has a problem with that being true.


BUT HOW do you make the LEAP from that, to what happens on EVERY OTHER DAY?

One way Christ receives and BRINGS to the Father to be WHERE HE IS. (where He will be until...)

The other happens when CHRIST leaves WHERE HE IS and comes to the earth.

They are completely different.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And how does that change anything? SURE we ALL know on the last day of this age CHRIST is returning and 'the DEAD WILL RISE AND THE ALIVE and remaining will be changed.' I don't think anyone has a problem with that being true.

I'm sure no one does. But pretribbers are quite expecting a journey to heaven. That's why all the emphasis by them on "the rapture". In fact, the real emphasis should be on the resurrection, when all believers receive their glorified bodies.

BUT HOW do you make the LEAP from that, to what happens on EVERY OTHER DAY?

Sorry, I'm not understanding your question.

One way Christ receives and BRINGS to the Father to be WHERE HE IS. (where He will be until...)

?

The other happens when CHRIST leaves WHERE HE IS and comes to the earth.

This is both the resurrection and the "rapture".

They are completely different.

You mean the resurrection and the rapture, or the Second Advent and the rapture? Sorry for my confusion.

 

[ewq1938]

"In My Fathers house are many mansions ... I go to prepare a place for you that where I am you might be also"

... He wasn't going to Jerusalem

Why did you cut the verse in half and not post the entire thing? He said he would return and receive people to himself. That takes place in the clouds of the Earth and eventually on the ground of the Earth.

 

[kleronomos]

You clearly don't need to be teaching anything about prophecy because you are not only clueless on it, you actually think everyone else but you is wrong.

Its nit even that hard to understand the difference between the Second Coming and the Rapture of the Church, but you are blinded by Satan on these things.

How bold, and such a harsh judgment especially considering the 'the whole world will follow after him' aka the falling away, and only a remnant carry forth truth... I am going to say I would much rather be me, and have things like this thrown my way rather than to be deceived with 'EVERYONE ELSE'.


What I do notice, as I do with all of this belief, is not one will 'line on line put forth their beliefs'. Always explaining what is meant rather than what is written.


HERE IS WHAT IT DOES SAY ON HOW WE ARE 'SAVED' FROM GODS WRATH. No trip to heaven,


Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us 9 Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD we shall be saved from wrath through Him 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

SAVED FROM WRATH RIGHT HERE ON EARTH


2 Corinthians 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation 8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life 9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us 11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks m


DELIVERED TIME AND AGAIN RIGHT HERE ON EARTH



John 17:13 And now come I to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves 14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world 15 I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL.

How can that be? The made up pre tribulation rapture doctrine that says Christ will be coming for them. DID THEY NOT READ THIS VERSE? CHRIST is the ONE who MAKES A PRAYER OPPOSITE TO THAT. AND TO ADD INJURY TO INSULT, ASKS THEY BE KEPT FROM EVIL WHILE PRAYING FOR THEM TO BE STAYING ON THE EARTH.

I don't know that much about delusions but I know it takes ALOT OF TWISTS AND TURNS TO GO 180 DEGREES IN THE OTHER DIRECTION from that verse.


Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me.39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

He that DIDN'T WANT TO 'taketh HIS CROSS and followeth after Me' would be all about a pre trib rapture



Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For Thy sake we are killed all the day long we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


That ends WHETHER OR NOT GOD WOULD HAVE THE CHURCH GO THROUGH TRIBULATION.


Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Hebrews 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.


Psalm 116:1 I love the LORD, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications.2 Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live.3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.4 Then called I upon the name of the LORD; O LORD, I beseech thee, deliver my soul.5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful.6 The LORD preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me.7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee.8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling.9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.10 I believed, therefore have I spoken: I was greatly afflicted:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.12 What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me?13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints.16 O LORD, truly I am thy servant; I am thy servant, and the son of thine handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds.17 I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD.18 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.19 In the courts of the LORD's house, in the midst of thee, O Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...Rapture is a man made and named false doctrine...

How can the Rapture be a "man-made" and "false" doctrine when it is embedded in Scripture? The Latin translation for "caught up together" is rapiemur, and rapture is derived from that. It means "caught up together". That does not make it "man-made" at all. The Rapture is a miraculous, supernatural event which is called "the Blessed Hope".

1. Will there be a Resurrection/Rapture? Absolutely.

2. Are there several Scriptures describing this event? Absolutely

3. Is there anything tying this event to any other? Nothing whatsoever

4. Is the Second Coming of Christ distinct from the Rapture? Absolutely

5. So who is the real enemy of the Resurrection/Rapture? Satan

 

[kleronomos]

I'm sure no one does. But pretribbers are quite expecting a journey to heaven. That's why all the emphasis by them on "the rapture". In fact, the real emphasis should be on the resurrection, when all believers receive their glorified bodies.


Sorry, I'm not understanding your question.


?


This is both the resurrection and the "rapture".


You mean the resurrection and the rapture, or the Second Advent and the rapture? Sorry for my confusion.

I mean resurrection at death (last day for us in earth body anyhow) and 2nd Advent.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards.

WE know where Christ is going. He is going to be crucified and then to ascend to heaven until THE 2ND ADVENT.

37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jesus is NOT coming to earth but is going to be ASCENDING. That is where He will be.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



THE direction headed is not towards earth for a LAST DAY IN THIS AGE but the time He ascended until He descends with the armies of heaven.