Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
FreeGrace2 said:
But go ahead and prove your presumption that God causes people to reject Him, because that is what "hardness of heart" is about.
Jesus told His disciples that they were given the mystery of the kingdom of God but unbelievers aren't.
See post #1019 for my explanation of Isa 6:9,10.
fail.
But go ahead and prove your presumption that God causes people to reject Him, because that is what "hardness of heart" is about.
Jesus told His disciples that they were given the mystery of the kingdom of God but unbelievers aren't.
See post #1019 for my explanation of Isa 6:9,10.
fail.
E
John 1. For as many as have recieved him
John 3. As moses lifted up the serpent. So too must the son of man be lifted up that whoever believed.
John 4, If you know who who it was you spoke to you would have asked, and he would have given you rivers of living water
John 5. Hear the word and believe
John 6. Labor for food which endures to eternal life. Eat and drink, Eat the bread from heaven, Eat the flesh and blood. In the end. Believe in him, the words he speaks are spirit and life
You keep talking about the wOrd. I just gave you the word.. Jesus own words.
John 3. As moses lifted up the serpent. So too must the son of man be lifted up that whoever believed.
John 4, If you know who who it was you spoke to you would have asked, and he would have given you rivers of living water
John 5. Hear the word and believe
John 6. Labor for food which endures to eternal life. Eat and drink, Eat the bread from heaven, Eat the flesh and blood. In the end. Believe in him, the words he speaks are spirit and life
You keep talking about the wOrd. I just gave you the word.. Jesus own words.
-
1
- Show all
Icedaisey said:
And I do not apologize for pissing off the Devil.
It's my duty.
Maybe he's cheering her on. The Bible says he deceives the whole world and he leads the whole world astray (Rev 12:9).
And I do not apologize for pissing off the Devil.
It's my duty.
Maybe he's cheering her on. The Bible says he deceives the whole world and he leads the whole world astray (Rev 12:9).
FreeGrace2 said:
One is born again when one believes in Christ as Savior. That's how they get to enter the kingdom of God.
"that call"?? What, specifically, are you referring to? I wasn't talking about a call. I was explaining how to enter the kingdom.
One is born again when one believes in Christ as Savior. That's how they get to enter the kingdom of God.
"that call"?? What, specifically, are you referring to? I wasn't talking about a call. I was explaining how to enter the kingdom.
I'm perfectly calm. The breadth of your post shows you are not. And you didn't explain the verses I quoted. You attempted to impart they don't say what Jesus said, by trying to interpolate Paul's writings, out of context, in an effort to say Paul's contradicting their import. He didn't.
I addressed my brother in the first sentence of my remarks and those were with regard to you, because I conceded he was likely better off in his thoughts about no longer engaging you.
Then, in the next sentence after that, I addressed those here whom the body of my observation applied to. I was finished addressing you in the first sentence. However, since you take it personally, and judging, yes, judging, by your behavior now and mannerisms, it appears your inference is reflecting a sense of guilt.
When you self-identify as the guilty party in my remarks about Devil's and wolves, when my first sentence in those full remarks was about you, while the rest addressed those who fit it's profile, with remarks like, total hypocrisy, you're defining yourself as what I spoke of and to generally. Those whom I was referring to know it because I don't speak to them. Because we're to have nothing to do with darkness save to expose it.
You think it a "fail" when proper Exegesis counters your intention to draft an argument that denies what Jesus expressly states about the will of God being to call whom he will to Salvation. While those not called are unable to understand, by God's will.
That's presumptuous.
Many are called but few are (the) chosen.
Old and New Testaments testify to the breadth and meaning of that.
Why would you argue it isn't true if you're one of the called God chose?
I addressed my brother in the first sentence of my remarks and those were with regard to you, because I conceded he was likely better off in his thoughts about no longer engaging you.
Then, in the next sentence after that, I addressed those here whom the body of my observation applied to. I was finished addressing you in the first sentence. However, since you take it personally, and judging, yes, judging, by your behavior now and mannerisms, it appears your inference is reflecting a sense of guilt.
When you self-identify as the guilty party in my remarks about Devil's and wolves, when my first sentence in those full remarks was about you, while the rest addressed those who fit it's profile, with remarks like, total hypocrisy, you're defining yourself as what I spoke of and to generally. Those whom I was referring to know it because I don't speak to them. Because we're to have nothing to do with darkness save to expose it.
You think it a "fail" when proper Exegesis counters your intention to draft an argument that denies what Jesus expressly states about the will of God being to call whom he will to Salvation. While those not called are unable to understand, by God's will.
That's presumptuous.
Many are called but few are (the) chosen.
Old and New Testaments testify to the breadth and meaning of that.
Why would you argue it isn't true if you're one of the called God chose?
FreeGrace2 said:
Calm down. I didn't ignore anything. I explained the verses you quoted.
Not what your post showed.
Oh really? Then prove another of your claims by showing any quote that suggests I'm not calm. You're the one calling other names and ascribing "callous hate for Christians" to them. How is that calm?
Maybe you just didn't understand my explanation.
This is just your wild presumption acting up again. Nothing I said was unbiblical or twisted Scripture, in spite of your apparently poor comprehension of what I explained.
This is a common tactic when a poster realizes that they cannot refute another poster and cannot answer pertinent questions. They just cop-out and bug out.
If you had started a new paragraph, and made it clear that what followed was about others, you would have a point. But, as it is, that single paragraph was clear enough.
Well, once again you fail to comprehend. I never "self-identified" as a guilty party. That is sheer absurdity.
You clearly don't even understand exegesis.
Your claim is presumptuous. Or prove it with Scripture that says that you presumptiously claim.
Please check the context before more presumption.
Because what YOU and rogerg claim isn't true. Simple. You still haven't provided any Scripture that says what you believe.
You see, I use the Berean study method when I read the Bible. I "search the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul (or rogerg or icedaisey) say is true.
And I find that what you two say isn't true when searching the Scriptures.
Calm down. I didn't ignore anything. I explained the verses you quoted.
Not what your post showed.
Oh really? Then prove another of your claims by showing any quote that suggests I'm not calm. You're the one calling other names and ascribing "callous hate for Christians" to them. How is that calm?
Maybe you just didn't understand my explanation.
This is just your wild presumption acting up again. Nothing I said was unbiblical or twisted Scripture, in spite of your apparently poor comprehension of what I explained.
This is a common tactic when a poster realizes that they cannot refute another poster and cannot answer pertinent questions. They just cop-out and bug out.
If you had started a new paragraph, and made it clear that what followed was about others, you would have a point. But, as it is, that single paragraph was clear enough.
Well, once again you fail to comprehend. I never "self-identified" as a guilty party. That is sheer absurdity.
You clearly don't even understand exegesis.
Your claim is presumptuous. Or prove it with Scripture that says that you presumptiously claim.
Please check the context before more presumption.
Because what YOU and rogerg claim isn't true. Simple. You still haven't provided any Scripture that says what you believe.
You see, I use the Berean study method when I read the Bible. I "search the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul (or rogerg or icedaisey) say is true.
And I find that what you two say isn't true when searching the Scriptures.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Your question isn't even legit. Entering the kingdom isn't about "the call". Maybe you should adopt the Berean study method as I have.
You would then understand what "calling" is all about.
Only if there were a verse that supports your claim can I accept what you claim. Otherwise, your claims are opinions, assumptions, or presumptions.
Just the facts ma'am. No hyperbole or hyper-anything here.
If you can't provide Scripture that says what you claim, there is no reason I can think of for accepting your claims.
You would then understand what "calling" is all about.
Only if there were a verse that supports your claim can I accept what you claim. Otherwise, your claims are opinions, assumptions, or presumptions.
Just the facts ma'am. No hyperbole or hyper-anything here.
If you can't provide Scripture that says what you claim, there is no reason I can think of for accepting your claims.
-
3
- Show all
Scripture HAS TO agree with scripture.
This is EXTREMELY simple.
If the Lord tasted death for every single person, then every single person is saved. Period. Full stop.
Its fine for you to try and believe that. But it contradicts scripture.
A MUCH better understanding of these scriptures is that the Lord Jesus is the Saviour of HIS PEOPLE. All of His People in the World from the beginning of time to the end of time.
None of those verses you posted refute ANYTHING. All those verses have done is confuse you. Even more than you already were.
This is EXTREMELY simple.
If the Lord tasted death for every single person, then every single person is saved. Period. Full stop.
Its fine for you to try and believe that. But it contradicts scripture.
A MUCH better understanding of these scriptures is that the Lord Jesus is the Saviour of HIS PEOPLE. All of His People in the World from the beginning of time to the end of time.
None of those verses you posted refute ANYTHING. All those verses have done is confuse you. Even more than you already were.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
I completely agree.
You may stop with your "full stop". What that would mean is that salvation is by the death of Christ. So, show me ANY verse that actually says that. But save your time. There are NO such verses. What you claim is only your opinion.
Instead, there are verses that tell us clearly the basis for which we are saved, and it isn't Christ's death.
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Rom 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?
Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Do you see the connection between these 2 verses that occur together? Jesus was resurrected for our justification AND we are justified THROUGH faith. Not His death.
You're probably thinking of Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
However, v.1 tells us that our faith is IN His blood. So it isn't on the basis of His death, but OUR faith in His death on our behalf.
v.10 - For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?
You're going to have to prove that with Scripture.
Go ahead and show me the verse.
Your claim is empty. You have no evidence that supports your claim. You just don't want to accept the verses that I have quoted.
Nice try. Now, why don't you address "those verses" and show me what they really mean then. If you can.
It's just so easy to make a claim. But it's quite another thing to prove a claim.
You may stop with your "full stop". What that would mean is that salvation is by the death of Christ. So, show me ANY verse that actually says that. But save your time. There are NO such verses. What you claim is only your opinion.
Instead, there are verses that tell us clearly the basis for which we are saved, and it isn't Christ's death.
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Rom 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?
Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Do you see the connection between these 2 verses that occur together? Jesus was resurrected for our justification AND we are justified THROUGH faith. Not His death.
You're probably thinking of Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
However, v.1 tells us that our faith is IN His blood. So it isn't on the basis of His death, but OUR faith in His death on our behalf.
v.10 - For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?
You're going to have to prove that with Scripture.
Go ahead and show me the verse.
Your claim is empty. You have no evidence that supports your claim. You just don't want to accept the verses that I have quoted.
Nice try. Now, why don't you address "those verses" and show me what they really mean then. If you can.
It's just so easy to make a claim. But it's quite another thing to prove a claim.
-
2
- Show all
Yeah, I always find it amazing, Grandpa, when people say that Jesus paid for everyone's sins, they do not recognize or accept by that, everyone without exception must be saved. What they miss, and what proves the major flaw in their thinking, is, if all sins were paid, then the sin of not believing was paid too. Thereby, making everyone saved. But, the Bible is abundantly clear, that everyone is not saved. However, for the Elect, it is true, and by which are we saved with the sin of not believing graciously removed. From that, true faith in Christ is given as a gift to them alone.
Hope that makes sense.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
[2Co 5:14 KJV]
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
[2Co 5:15 KJV] 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
[1Pe 2:24 KJV]
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Those work?
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
[2Co 5:15 KJV] 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
[1Pe 2:24 KJV]
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Those work?