Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[LactoseIntolerant]

because they are transformative. building us up into Christhood.


no works .....................................no Christ- like person.


those who 'don't like to do the will of (works of) GOD -- will not like / be able to be close to God on the other side. they will just not be that close by -- as they think / feel now -- they will think / feel then.


"For as he hath thought in his soul, so is he," YLT

As you are working, you think "I am doing this because Jesus told me too". Remember your First Love. Rev 2:4
As you are working, you think "I am doing this because I will be recognized by Jesus". Gal 2:16
As you are working, you think "I am doing this because Jesus would have done this". 2 Tim 2:1

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Do you abide by the law in your country? Don't forget Servitus escaped France because he was also wanted there for heresy. Thats the way it was then. Heretics where put to death.. Whether that is right or wrong is irrevelevant.

They were in those times in Europe 'intolerant' to heretics. Servitus was a heretic. Condemned by both protestants and Roman Catholics.. Thats history my friend. Like it or not.

I render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. If I must go to jail so be it. If I must die, let it be done.

There was an incident (paraphrasing now) where an israeli settler was asked why are they taking and occupying palestinian resident homes. He said quite plainly "If I won't do it somebody else will".

The law of nazi germany, report all jews, should all Christians obey the law because fear of punishment or ridicule by your neighbour or better yet because some else will. I can cite more hypotheticals from history, if you wish. But you should emulate the martyrs no the citizens of the beast.

"Calvin played a prominent part in the trial and pressed for execution ". Unsolicited "If I won't do it somebody else will" action if you ask me.

A Christian should distinguish Holy Law from State Law and be prepared to chose.

 

[phil36]

I render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. If I must go to jail so be it. If I must die, let it be done.

There was an incident (paraphrasing now) where an israeli settler was asked why are they taking and occupying palestinian resident homes. He said quite plainly "If I won't do it somebody else will".

The law of nazi germany, report all jews, should all Christians obey the law because fear of punishment or ridicule by your neighbour or better yet because some else will. I can cite more hypotheticals from history, if you wish. But you should emulate the martyrs no the citizens of the beast.

"Calvin played a prominent part in the trial and pressed for execution ". Unsolicited "If I won't do it somebody else will" action if you ask me.

A Christian should distinguish Holy Law from State Law and be prepared to chose.

It's still irrelevant, the law in Europe at that time was if you were a heretic the penalty was death.. Rightly or wrongluy. Servitus was a heretic condemned by both protestants and Roman Catholics.

Just like in some countries today, when certain laws are broken the penalty is death.. And Christians in those countries agree with the death penalty for breaking those laws..


Citing 'hypotheticals' is still irrelevant. Servitus was in fact a heretic. He was blasphemous against God himself. Today in the west there is no legal penalty for heresy, but there was back then..

If sercitusbhadnt escapes from France he would have been executed ther.e, before going to Geneva.

So was it wrong, that's for a matter of conscience. Obviously christians in those days thought it was ok and withing the law of the land. Comparing it to genocide in nazi Germany and occupied countries is fallacious and historical fraud.

The only people using this argument are usually those who believe Servitus' heresy or the historically ignorant. Or those with malicious intent!

It is very telling that this is the only point from my answer to your post that you replied to 🤔

 

[cv5]

When you conflate "doctrines" with reason and logic and reject it as "vain", how do you understand the bible? Or rather, how can you understand the bible?
Isaiah 1 18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

How can you even speak plainly upon rejecting logic?
2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

If discernment is just a hodge podge of opinions, what is the value added?
If your logic is unsound your interpretation of Scriptures will be unsound.

I never said that election was a doctrine. I also never said that mans choice was a doctrine. What I did say is that both are represented in the Scripture. It's not one or the other it's both. I'm not about to judge the matter I'm only going to declare it.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

It's still irrelevant, the law in Europe at that time was if you were a heretic the penalty was death.. Rightly or wrongluy. Servitus was a heretic condemned by both protestants and Roman Catholics.

Just like in some countries today, when certain laws are broken the penalty is death.. And Christians in those countries agree with the death penalty for breaking those laws..


Citing 'hypotheticals' is still irrelevant. Servitus was in fact a heretic. He was blasphemous against God himself. Today in the west there is no legal penalty for heresy, but there was back then..

If sercitusbhadnt escapes from France he would have been executed ther.e, before going to Geneva.

So was it wrong, that's for a matter of conscience. Obviously christians in those days thought it was ok and withing the law of the land. Comparing it to genocide in nazi Germany and occupied countries is fallacious and historical fraud.

The only people using this argument are usually those who believe Servitus' heresy or the historically ignorant. Or those with malicious intent!

It is very telling that this is the only point from my answer to your post that you replied to 🤔

Yes, I am a subordinationist. What is telling is the only thing preventing you from committing such things again is the the prevailing zeitgeist of these here times. Not obedience to the God. Telling indeed.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I never said that election was a doctrine. I also never said that mans choice was a doctrine. What I did say is that both are represented in the Scripture. It's not one or the other it's both. I'm not about to judge the matter I'm only going to declare it.

Then there is no need to discuss contentious things. Have a good day.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

It's still irrelevant, the law in Europe at that time was if you were a heretic the penalty was death.. Rightly or wrongluy. Servitus was a heretic condemned by both protestants and Roman Catholics.

Just like in some countries today, when certain laws are broken the penalty is death.. And Christians in those countries agree with the death penalty for breaking those laws..


Citing 'hypotheticals' is still irrelevant. Servitus was in fact a heretic. He was blasphemous against God himself. Today in the west there is no legal penalty for heresy, but there was back then..

If sercitusbhadnt escapes from France he would have been executed ther.e, before going to Geneva.

So was it wrong, that's for a matter of conscience. Obviously christians in those days thought it was ok and withing the law of the land. Comparing it to genocide in nazi Germany and occupied countries is fallacious and historical fraud.

The only people using this argument are usually those who believe Servitus' heresy or the historically ignorant. Or those with malicious intent!

It is very telling that this is the only point from my answer to your post that you replied to 🤔

I understand now. This is a trinitarian safe space. I missed the fine print.
But I leave you with this, the Book of Revelation is a prophecy for Christians. Remember to wash your hands.

 

[cv5]

I understand now. This is a trinitarian safe space. I missed the fine print.
But I leave you with this, the Book of Revelation is a prophecy for Christians. Remember to wash your hands.

It is also a book for post-rapture Israel and gentiles.

 

[Grandpa]

Then PLEASE show me any verse that actually limits who Christ died for. But I know you can't because of the many verses that say He died for everyone.


You just answered your question. It is those who have not believed that are condemned. iow, they never received the free gift of eternal life.


Nope. John very specifically noted both believers AND unbelievers.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Red words refer to believers as John used the PERSONAL PRONOUN.
Blue words refer to everyone else, or the whole world.

This would be probably the 5th-6th time of posting the same verse. You don't understand scripture, obviously.

How can I show you when you can't understand?

If there are people that are condemned then Christ did not die for them.

Otherwise, Christs death is in vain, and God is powerless. Because you have a bunch of people that Christ died for and God trying to save but He just isn't wise enough, or powerful enough, to do it.

I think we both know, hopefully, that the bible doesn't come close to saying anything like that. Although your philosophy is trying to make it say that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then PLEASE show me any verse that actually limits who Christ died for. But I know you can't because of the many verses that say He died for everyone.

This would be probably the 5th-6th time of posting the same verse. You don't understand scripture, obviously.

Rather, it is you who do not understand Scripture, since you haven't quoted any verse that limits the scope of Christ's death and I've shown plenty that say He died for everyone.

How can I show you when you can't understand?

I understand perfectly well. You DON'T have any supporting verses for your opinion, and I do.

If there are people that are condemned then Christ did not die for them.

And just what verse says that?

Rather, both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach that it is those who "have not believed" that are condemned.

There are NO verses that teach that condemnation is based on Christ not dying for them.

What you believe is unbiblical.

Otherwise, Christs death is in vain, and God is powerless.

Just more opinion from you. Christ's death actually obtains the gift of eternal life for EVERYONE. However, Jesus gives this free gift ONLY to those who trust in Him for it. But apparently you aren't understanding that.

Because you have a bunch of people that Christ died for and God trying to save but He just isn't wise enough, or powerful enough, to do it.

More faulty opinion. God never "tries" to save anyone. He actually saves those who believe.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

It appears that you don't believe this. What you seem to believe is that "God was pleased to save those Christ died for".

But where is such a verse? Nowhere in the Bible.

I think we both know, hopefully, that the bible doesn't come close to saying anything like that. Although your philosophy is trying to make it say that.

I have repeatedly proven that the Bible DOES say that. That's the ONLY REASON I believe it.

The problem is that you believe what ISN'T in the Bible.

 

[brightfame52]

Jn 6:39

Jesus again in John makes a comment indicating Election Jn 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Also from this verse we see its the Fathers Will, that He lose nothing of the All He gave to Him !

This is speaking of final Salvation or Glorification of the Elect given to Christ !

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then PLEASE show me any verse that actually limits who Christ died for. But I know you can't because of the many verses that say He died for everyone.


Rather, it is you who do not understand Scripture, since you haven't quoted any verse that limits the scope of Christ's death and I've shown plenty that say He died for everyone.


I understand perfectly well. You DON'T have any supporting verses for your opinion, and I do.


And just what verse says that?

Rather, both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach that it is those who "have not believed" that are condemned.

There are NO verses that teach that condemnation is based on Christ not dying for them.

What you believe is unbiblical.


Just more opinion from you. Christ's death actually obtains the gift of eternal life for EVERYONE. However, Jesus gives this free gift ONLY to those who trust in Him for it. But apparently you aren't understanding that.


More faulty opinion. God never "tries" to save anyone. He actually saves those who believe.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

It appears that you don't believe this. What you seem to believe is that "God was pleased to save those Christ died for".

But where is such a verse? Nowhere in the Bible.


I have repeatedly proven that the Bible DOES say that. That's the ONLY REASON I believe it.

The problem is that you believe what ISN'T in the Bible.

You have failed to make one important point:

Christ suffered punishment only for those who He has saved, the elect foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Those who choose to reject Christ suffer their own punishment.

Maybe you don't believe in limited atonement but there is definitely the concept of Christ's limited punishment presented in Scripture.

 

[Justified]

You have failed to make one important point:

Christ suffered punishment only for those who He has saved, the elect foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Those who choose to reject Christ suffer their own punishment.

Maybe you don't believe in limited atonement but there is definitely the concept of Christ's limited punishment presented in Scripture.

Calvinist limited atonement has the result of all those not selected being unconditionally condemned. When will you start looking at your false theology of calvinism with an open mind. You have to get out of the echo chamber and trust what the bible says.

 

[cv5]

Calvinist limited atonement has the result of all those not selected being unconditionally condemned. When will you start looking at your false theology of calvinism with an open mind. You have to get out of the echo chamber and trust what the bible says.

I said nothing about agreeing to limited atonement. You assume too much.

All I said was there is no doubt that limited punishment (upon Jesus) is Scripturally accurate.

 

[rogerg]

Then PLEASE show me any verse that actually limits who Christ died for. But I know you can't because of the many verses that say He died for everyone.

[Jhn 17:1, 9 KJV]
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: ...
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

[Jhn 17:24, 26 KJV]
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. ...
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[1Co 3:6 KJV] 6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

[1Co 1:2 KJV]
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
[1Co 15:3 KJV]
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 

[fredoheaven]

We are talking about Christ taking away the sin of every single person in the world vs Christ taking away the sin of His elect, believers.

If Christ took away the sin of every single person in the world, (your "sin barrier") then what is their to condemn anyone over?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


1 John 2:2 is talking about all the believers who will come to Christ. Not unbelievers who won't come to Christ.

This would be probably the 5th-6th time of posting the same verse. You don't understand scripture, obviously.

How can I show you when you can't understand?

If there are people that are condemned then Christ did not die for them.

Otherwise, Christs death is in vain, and God is powerless. Because you have a bunch of people that Christ died for and God trying to save but He just isn't wise enough, or powerful enough, to do it.

I think we both know, hopefully, that the bible doesn't come close to saying anything like that. Although your philosophy is trying to make it say that.

Contrary, Christ did die for all men and his power to save is for all but every single person is condemned because he believeth not. All those who believeth on Christ, however, are not condemned. The condition of condemning depends on belief or unbelief.

 

[fredoheaven]

You have failed to make one important point:

Christ suffered punishment only for those who He has saved, the elect foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Those who choose to reject Christ suffer their own punishment.

Maybe you don't believe in limited atonement but there is definitely the concept of Christ's limited punishment presented in Scripture.

The implication of receiving and rejecting does not limit the atonement of Christ. The reconciliatory of Christ at the cross of Calvary is for all men. Salvation is offered to ALL as Christ died for the ungodly, sinners that's everybody, that's ALL, For ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23; Romans 5:6)

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

 

[Ogom]

As you are working, you think "I am doing this because Jesus told me too". Remember your First Love. Rev 2:4
As you are working, you think "I am doing this because I will be recognized by Jesus". Gal 2:16
As you are working, you think "I am doing this because Jesus would have done this". 2 Tim 2:1

we will do & think things differently depending on

what level we are at, and / or continue to stay at -- in

whatever ways physically /mentally / and spiritually.

stay not forever on milk and/or herbs, and/or meat, but

progress on from milk to herbs to meat..... to meat +

strong meat..... to strong meat + going on to mysteries,

and whatever combinations at any time as is helpful.

 

[fredoheaven]

Jn 6:39

Jesus again in John makes a comment indicating Election Jn 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Also from this verse we see its the Fathers Will, that He lose nothing of the All He gave to Him !

This is speaking of final Salvation or Glorification of the Elect given to Christ !

A very proof text gor eternal security for those who comes to Jesus and believes on him. John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jn 6:39

Jesus again in John makes a comment indicating Election Jn 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

There is NO mention of being elected/chosen in this verse. It's a verse about eternal security.

Also from this verse we see its the Fathers Will, that He lose nothing of the All He gave to Him !

This refers to the fact that it is believers who are given to Christ.

This is speaking of final Salvation or Glorification of the Elect given to Christ !

No such thing as "final salvation". There is just salvation. And again, you have no verse to support your claim.