Divided Believers Cannot Mature in Christ

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Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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#41
same straddling of the lanes, the thinking is >>> it does not save, but it saves
It is easy to spot. The thief on the cross and The Lord Jesus Christ exchanged 2 short statements and the thief went to paradise.

The word salads, straddling of the lanes and the 200 page dissertations on " how to be saved" are a DEAD GIVEAWAY of false doctrine.
~~~~
John 3:16

Acts 16:31........Saved.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,755
842
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#42
Because 1 co 12 describes the current body as local. So does Matthew 16 and 18 so does Ephesians..etc.

All redeemed isn't a body currently. One member does not suffer with all. It is not unified, it's unassembled, it's disjointed. This is not the description of the body in scripture.

But .. Ill leave it at that and talk on other things. A small percentage of Christians agree with this and most will disagree here.

Last thing on the body is that it is not a building. It's the saved, baptised, covenanted together group that meets there.

You raise an interesting question, because parts of 1CR do seem to be meant mainly if not only for that church, so let us explore that:

Ch.1: v.1--9 - the greeting, mention of their material as well as spiritual wealth, and encouragement to stand firm to the end

v.10-17 - denominationalism is addressed, because the church was dividing, with sects following Paul, Apollos, Cephas or Christ

v.18-25 - a generally applicable truth regarding Greek philosophy and Jewish demand for signs versus the Gospel of God

v.26 - mentions the social status of the Corinthians when they converted

v.27-31 - general teachings about God's election of the foolish, weak and poor in Christ

And so the letter continues with a mixture of specific allusions and general teachings, so now let us skip to chapter 12.

v.1-2 - a specific allusion to the idolatry of the Corinthians before being converted

v.3-31 - general teachings applicable to all Christians

Where is v. 12 located? In the general section.


Please specify the verses you have in mind in MT & EPH.

Thanks.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,883
656
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#43
I like what Jimbone said.. funny. We might want to remember Psa "A happy heart is good medicine and a joyful mind causes healing, But a broken spirit dries up the bones.

When we read the NT we know who it is that's talking as they did back then. So today who's telling us "Divided Believers Cannot Mature in Christ"? With in this division where do you sit? So many of us believe on John 3:16-17 Rom 10:9-10. So the doctrines we disagree on do not touch salvation. Gonna be bold here.... there have been times for each of us that we just knew that person next to us ..speaking or just passing by we knew they were a believer. This is something that should be 24/7. Its that light within us. I've had it happen where I was just standing alone watching this old movie being played out side (collage) this person comes up "you a Christian aren't you?"
Yes I answered how did you know? "there's just something about you", Shall I tell you what I personally believe?

Is what I personally believe the reason the person saw Christ not me? Ooh its "faith" .. I mean faith! Walk by faith live by faith believing the gifts are real and for today. Yet truth is its not being Baptist or Word of Faith or AOC, Pent, Charismatic, Lutheran on and on. Its Him all the division gets toss out all the silly doctrines gone. You see Him.. you know Him you know that light because its in you.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,339
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#44
Water baptism for salvation isn't growing or dying where I am from. There are folks who believe it and won't change, but it seems to be staying in those groups, not getting more popular.

Lordship salvation, reformed/calvinism theology is gaining popularity at an alarming rate where I am from.

The depravity of the creature is the sermon. The solution to that depravity by the Lord Jesus Christ is not mentioned.

1. You are the scum of the earth, and you can't even believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

2. You better persevere or you were not really saved.

This is what is gaining popularity where I am from.

Sad.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. Churches think they are going back to the bible..like reformed Anglican or reformed Baptist but are pushing works into salvation.

I like what onorato daimante puts on youtube in this
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,339
1,209
113
New Zealand
#45
You raise an interesting question, because parts of 1CR do seem to be meant mainly if not only for that church, so let us explore that:

Ch.1: v.1--9 - the greeting, mention of their material as well as spiritual wealth, and encouragement to stand firm to the end

v.10-17 - denominationalism is addressed, because the church was dividing, with sects following Paul, Apollos, Cephas or Christ

v.18-25 - a generally applicable truth regarding Greek philosophy and Jewish demand for signs versus the Gospel of God

v.26 - mentions the social status of the Corinthians when they converted

v.27-31 - general teachings about God's election of the foolish, weak and poor in Christ

And so the letter continues with a mixture of specific allusions and general teachings, so now let us skip to chapter 12.

v.1-2 - a specific allusion to the idolatry of the Corinthians before being converted

v.3-31 - general teachings applicable to all Christians

Where is v. 12 located? In the general section.


Please specify the verses you have in mind in MT & EPH.

Thanks.
In Ephesians 4.. you have 'there is one body, one faith, one baptism'..

The unity described and togetherness strived for in this with the surrounding chapters. .. is, like Corinth, primarily for the Ephesians.

Of course for distribution to other church bodies .. but the key thing being the unity is within that Ephesians body with application to other church bodies.

Ephesians also has the general assembly in heaven..

That is the future church of all redeemed in heaven.

Not all redeemed in mind..but specific churches.

Matthew 16:18 has Jesus saying He will build His church. A universal, never meeting, no doctrine church?

Or what He talks about later in Mathew 18... that can be spoken to and has church discipline?

Jesus wouldn't have introduced the church one way and then contradicted Himself later.

There is alot more to this also.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,274
1,907
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#46
When I know a believer who wants to follow me and they have not attended a traditional church meeting for some time, maybe ever, my first thought is "Good, I won't have to dig them out of their doctrinal hole".

When I know a believer who wants to follow me and they HAVE attended or took part in a "church membership ceremony" I first must lead them to break any binding vows they made with that denomination. This is done as a witness to all (including angels) as a refusal to be divided from the Body of Christ in any way, save for location.

Just to be sure: being unique, certain colloquial traditions, creative ways of singing hymns or preaching, etc. are NOT distinctions that cause division.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,161
6,111
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#47
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.

Aaron56
Love the post as usual brother

Also when you say “ Christ and also him crucified “

ypu arent sayong i only preach that Jesus was crucified but your preaching the living lord Jesus that the gospel presents to us and also that he was put do death for our sins

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

paul

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1-

some misinterpret paup as saying “ I only preach Jesus crucified when really he’s saying “ I preach the gospel of Jesus Christ our lord and his death and resurrection “

pauls letters are evidence of his doctrines ehoch touch on every point of doctrine

The basics are things like baptism , repentance and faith towards God , the resurrection , eternal judgement ect the things Jesus laid out in the gospel m sermons

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:1-2‬ ‭

maturity is when we begin allowing the teachings to change our minds and hearts through putting them into practice in our lives

“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

bickering and arguing over basics that were established by Jesus in the gospel things like baptism ,

The resurrection of the dead and eternal judgement

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:33‬ ‭

faith towards God

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21

Application of his word

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?…..
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In a place like this we’ve argued about baptism for the three years I’ve been here , eternal judgement , repentance and faith towards God all the basic stuff that we. Need re taught over and over again. So we never move in to maturity applying the doctrine part that changes our hearts and minds it’s leaves us stunted eventually

when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

When we’re a kid there’s a point where we begin taking responsability as we’ve learned our chores and duties in life and then we begin to walk it out . We make mistakes still learn from them and move forward but there’s no option to remain suckling on mamas teet at thirty three yes old is the point

eventually a fruit tree needs to bear fruit or it’s wasting soil , and if it begins to poison the relative trees around it it will be removed for certain by the Gardner

Children eventually have to grow up it’s just the nature of life itself even in Christ and an adults behavior is of self control in most instances we learn. Ot to run with our emotions and restrain initial carnal responses so as to not act in the flesh but in the spirit we’ve received from the lord by his gospel

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬


divisions and immaturity are fruits of ck fusion of even the basic elements of the lords doctrine

“the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”


Weve largely turned our ears away from the things Jesus taught in the gospel in his doctrine so those things are foreign To us and we have to argue about them

We’ve gotten away from the lords doctrine so few know what he said regarding the basics and it creates argument and confusion which isn’t authored by the lord

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

eventually chrirtianity returns to Christ and his word
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,755
842
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#48
In Ephesians 4.. you have 'there is one body, one faith, one baptism'..

The unity described and togetherness strived for in this with the surrounding chapters. .. is, like Corinth, primarily for the Ephesians.

Of course for distribution to other church bodies .. but the key thing being the unity is within that Ephesians body with application to other church bodies.

Ephesians also has the general assembly in heaven..

That is the future church of all redeemed in heaven.

Not all redeemed in mind..but specific churches.

Matthew 16:18 has Jesus saying He will build His church. A universal, never meeting, no doctrine church?

Or what He talks about later in Mathew 18... that can be spoken to and has church discipline?

Jesus wouldn't have introduced the church one way and then contradicted Himself later.

There is alot more to this also.
Yes, Paul's epistles were addressed to specific churches but meant to be shared as widely as possible--which was not very wide until after Gutenberg invented the printing press about 1500 A.D.

Thanks for prompting the systematic study of 1 Corinthians to explore the mixture of specific and general references.

I have no idea what Scripture prompted you to say everything after "Ephesians also has the general assembly in heaven".
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,339
1,209
113
New Zealand
#49
Yes, Paul's epistles were addressed to specific churches but meant to be shared as widely as possible--which was not very wide until after Gutenberg invented the printing press about 1500 A.D.

Thanks for prompting the systematic study of 1 Corinthians to explore the mixture of specific and general references.

I have no idea what Scripture prompted you to say everything after "Ephesians also has the general assembly in heaven".
Matthew 16:18 is describing the formation of the church.

Matthew 18 is showing 'the church ' working.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,755
842
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#50
Matthew 16:18 is describing the formation of the church.

Matthew 18 is showing 'the church ' working.
Yes, I understand and agree with that.

And it is interesting for this thread that in MT 16:23 records Peter's divide with Jesus regarding His suffering and dying for humanity.

Then we see how to heal division in MT 18:15-17.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,339
1,209
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New Zealand
#51
Yes, I understand and agree with that.

And it is interesting for this thread that in MT 16:23 records Peter's divide with Jesus regarding His suffering and dying for humanity.

Then we see how to heal division in MT 18:15-17.
The thing here being..that 'the church ' spoken to..local and visible, isn't different to 'the church' in Matthew 16:18.

That's the point here. Jesus introduces the church He will build .. it's the same thing in Matthew 18. Not two different kinds..universal vs local..but both local.

Like 'the horse' ... that's singular standing for plural. .. same with Matt 16:18
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
1,437
676
113
#52
When I know a believer who wants to follow me and they have not attended a traditional church meeting for some time, maybe ever, my first thought is "Good, I won't have to dig them out of their doctrinal hole".

When I know a believer who wants to follow me and they HAVE attended or took part in a "church membership ceremony" I first must lead them to break any binding vows they made with that denomination. This is done as a witness to all (including angels) as a refusal to be divided from the Body of Christ in any way, save for location.

Just to be sure: being unique, certain colloquial traditions, creative ways of singing hymns or preaching, etc. are NOT distinctions that cause division.
True Doctrine NEVER causes division, it might bring division to the surface. But Indoctrination and false doctrine cause the division.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,755
842
113
#53
The thing here being..that 'the church ' spoken to..local and visible, isn't different to 'the church' in Matthew 16:18.

That's the point here. Jesus introduces the church He will build .. it's the same thing in Matthew 18. Not two different kinds..universal vs local..but both local.

Like 'the horse' ... that's singular standing for plural. .. same with Matt 16:18
Are you a reincarnation of a medieval philosopher?

Boethius translated the works of Plato, Aristotle, Euclid and Ptolemy. He discussed whether universal concepts only exist as ideas, and he expounded on topics of the quadrivium—arithmetic, geometry, astronomy and music. He was arrested for treason and wrote The Consolation of Philosophy before being executed in 524.

The head of the French palace school was the Irishman, Johannes Erigena, who wrote The Divisions of Nature. He was a Neo-Platonist, who translated the writings of Dionysius, revived the nominalist (universals) debate and advocated universal salvation and process theology.

IMO the universal set is comprised of the individuals in the set.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,339
1,209
113
New Zealand
#54
Are you a reincarnation of a medieval philosopher?

Boethius translated the works of Plato, Aristotle, Euclid and Ptolemy. He discussed whether universal concepts only exist as ideas, and he expounded on topics of the quadrivium—arithmetic, geometry, astronomy and music. He was arrested for treason and wrote The Consolation of Philosophy before being executed in 524.

The head of the French palace school was the Irishman, Johannes Erigena, who wrote The Divisions of Nature. He was a Neo-Platonist, who translated the writings of Dionysius, revived the nominalist (universals) debate and advocated universal salvation and process theology.

IMO the universal set is comprised of the individuals in the set.

https://awpink.org/2020/06/17/the-churches-of-god-1-thess-214/

Some more in-depth explanation.

Also if you can find it.. Real Churches or A Fog by S.E. Anderson.. not the Steven Anderson now :) the one of the 1950s
 
Sep 2, 2020
15,161
6,111
113
#55
Yes, Paul's epistles were addressed to specific churches but meant to be shared as widely as possible--which was not very wide until after Gutenberg invented the printing press about 1500 A.D.

Thanks for prompting the systematic study of 1 Corinthians to explore the mixture of specific and general references.

I have no idea what Scripture prompted you to say everything after "Ephesians also has the general assembly in heaven".
Amen it’s common doctrine for all no matter who originally received the letter they shared the epistles with the other groups

“And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭4:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul and Peter were writing to the same people

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the idea that each letter is only for the people that originally received it is just a way to discount it