Discussion on the End Times

[Absolutely]

The church is the whole of the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The covenant people, the body of Christ is gathered / is to be gathered from all tribes, tongues and nations - including Arabs, Jews, Germans, Spaniards, Africans, Indians, Khoi-San, Chinese, Japanese, mixed-race peoples - which we all are, etc.).

The covenant people, the body of Christ are the physical descendants and adopted children (like Ruth) of Jacob, who accepts Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah, as atonement offering for their sins, and as their King, and walk in his Torah ways, as God commanded:

Matthew 15 (ESV)

24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

To show how adoption into the covenant people, the body of Christ, has occurred, we consider the story of the Moabite Ruth: She became the great-grandmother of King David, from whom Yeshua ha'Mashiach our Saviour and King, descended. During Assyrian captivity, the 10 tribes of Israel were scattered among the nations, largely never to return, with a collective amnesia of their Torah origins. During the Babylonian captivity and subsequent Roman deportations from Judea, some Torah walking Jews from Judea as the collective ancestors of the tribes of Judah / Benjamin / Levi, has partially returned to the whole of the ancient southern/northern kingdom land of Israel.


1 John 2 (ESV)

4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Therefor any person in the body of Christ, has been found, as belonging to the former lost sheep of the house of Israel. Beware however that calling yourself born-again Christian (Christ = Messiah, Christian = follower of Messiah), and do not "walk in the same way in which he walked" is "a liar, and the truth is not in him," as Yeshua ha'Mashiach walked in the way of Torah.

Roman's describes the Jews as grafted back in.
The 144 k are vividly described as covenant Jews and jewish lineage.

You are not factoring in the entire picture.

 

[Absolutely]

I already know how hard it is for people who have decided what they want the Lord to do for them, to read or even consider an alternative scenario for the events of the end times.
So; nothing further can be gained on the issue of who is the true Israel of God. Whether it is the Jews or the faithful Christians, will be revealed as events unfold. Those who had it wrong may bitterly regret their error.

Classic POT <> KETTLE.

 

[Truth7t7]

How you get that from what is Written, is known only by yourself.
Obviously Zech 14:1-2 does not refer to the Return of Jesus, as that comes in verse 3.

Your idea that the earth will be 'dissolved by fire', is plainly wrong, as the rest of chapter 14 describes earthly scenes and events.

The Day Of The Lord Is Self Explanatory, The Earth Is (Dissolved By Fire)

Zechariah 14:1 is the day of the Lord, the very same day of the Lord seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13, when the earth is (Dissolved) by the Lord's fire

Zechariah 14:8 shows the river of life present, the eternal kingdom.

Zechariah 14:1KJV
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Men Are Consumed By The Lord's Fire In Judgement.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

The Eternal River Of Life, In The Eternal Kingdom

Zechariah 14:8KJV
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

 

[Happy2020]

I thought we were taught not to focus on the end times and esoteric things...but on bettering ourselves and learning how to love our neighbour?

 

[Truth7t7]

Roman's describes the Jews as grafted back in.
The 144 k are vividly described as covenant Jews and jewish lineage.

You are not factoring in the entire picture.

The chosen remnant elect Jew will be saved and (Added) to the Church, the vast majority of ethnic Jews will not be saved, but blinded.

Romans 11:5-8KJV
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Zechariah 14:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

 

[Truth7t7]

I thought we were taught not to focus on the end times and esoteric things...but on bettering ourselves and learning how to love our neighbour?

2 Timothy 2:15KJV
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Before the Messiah was born as a man the sages searched scripture to find our exactly how this would happen and decided they knew exactly, step by step how the lord would do that. They were wrong about what scripture said. They were to have faith is that it would be done, but they were adding to scripture when they decided the steps God would take to do it.

That is what is happening today as we read about the end times and Christ's return. We are told to expect it and to have faith in God for how He will, step by step, do it.

Amen. That is the purpose of prophecy to point to God as those who witness the events take place see the one true god who can prophecy things years in advance and they literally come true

Remove literal interpretation and you kill the power of prophecy

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Zechariah 14 is a sequence of Prophecy, of the yet to happen; end times.

Zechariah 14:1-2 describe the conquest of God's people by the Anti-Christ. 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. Daniel 7:25, Daniel 11:30-45, Revelation 13:5-8

Zechariah 14:4-5 is the glorious Return and Armageddon. Revelation 19:11-21

Zechariah 14:6-21 is the Millennium period. Isaiah 12:1-6, Revelation 20:1-10

Zech 14 does not mention the Eternal state. Daniel 12:1-3, Revelation 21-22

I am still waiting for you to explain when the church was ever two nations?

Ezekiel 37:22 (NKJV): and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought we were taught not to focus on the end times and esoteric things...but on bettering ourselves and learning how to love our neighbour?

I think it’s ok to study as to
Me it gives us hope. But yes the division is not right.

 

[BenjaminN]

I am still waiting for you to explain when the church was ever two nations?

Ezekiel 37:22 (NKJV): and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

John 11 (ESV)

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation (Jews, tribes of Judah / Benjamin / Levi living in Judea, southern kingdom) should perish." 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad (identity-lost, scattered ten tribes of Israel, ancient northern kingdom). 53 So from that day on they made plans to put him to death. 54 Jesus therefore no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there to the region near the wilderness, to a town called Ephraim, and there he stayed with the disciples.


Israel = All twelve scattered tribes of Jacob's descendants, of which some have completely lost their identity


Matthew 10 (ESV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'


Matthew 15 (ESV)

24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Acts 1 (ESV)

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel (united Judah & Ephraim, ancient southern & northern kingdoms)?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea (Judah / Benjamin / Levi, ancient southern kingdom) and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. (scattered Ephraim / ten lost tribes, ancient northern kingdom)"


James 1 (ESV)

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the TWELVE tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings.


Jeremiah 50 (ESV)

5 They shall ask the way to Zion, with faces turned toward it, saying, 'Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in an everlasting covenant that will never be forgotten.' 6 "My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray, turning them away on the mountains. From mountain to hill they have gone. They have forgotten their fold.

1 John 2 (ESV)

4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Matthew 6 (ESV)


10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.


Jeremiah 31 (ESV)

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant ( Yeshua ha'Mashiach's / Jesus Christ's atonement for sins offering) with the house of Israel (Ephraim / ten identity-lost scattered tribes, ancient northern kingdom) and the house of Judah (Jews, Judah / Benjamin / Levi, ancient southern kingdom), 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke (see Deuteronomy 28:64's punishment for breaking the old covenant made with Abraham), though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law (Torah / God's commandments) within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Deuteronomy 28 (ESV)

64 "And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

The new covenant in Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah broke the curse of Deuteronomy 28, which was our punishment for breaking God's old covenant, made with our forefather Abraham.


Psalms 107 (ESV)

1 Oh give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever! 2 Let the redeemed of the Lord say so, whom he has redeemed from trouble 3 and gathered in from the lands, from the east and from the west, from the north and from the south.


Have you been a lost sheep, have you forgotten your fold? Jesus the Messiah will gather all the lost sheep of Israel from the ends of the earth, for those who walk where he walked in God's commandments. He will guide his covenant people to their covenant land.

 

[Keras]

I am still waiting for you to explain when the church was ever two nations?

Ezekiel 37:22 (NKJV): and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

Firstly; Thanks BenjaminN, for your excellent reply.

God chose Abraham, then later the 12 sons of Jacob. They went to live in the Promised Land, but they apostatized and God separated them into 2 Houses; Israel and Judah. Both were exiled, for a decreed time, Ezekiel 4:4-6.
Judah has come back, but the House of Israel remains scattered among the nations.
Judah, the Jewish State of Israel, remains in apostasy, but the Northern 10 tribes of Israel, the people Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24, are now the Christian peoples from every race, nation and language. John sees them in Revelation 7:9

There is coming soon a punishment upon Judah, the third swing of the Sword; Ezekiel 21:1-16 and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27 We Christians have a destiny; to be God's people in His holy Land.
Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where we are there when the AC has his short season of power. Some will be taken to a place of safety. Revelation 12:14, and the rest must remain, Revelation 12:17, and as described in Daniel 11:30-35.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Firstly; Thanks BenjaminN, for your excellent reply.

God chose Abraham, then later the 12 sons of Jacob. They went to live in the Promised Land, but they apostatized and God separated them into 2 Houses; Israel and Judah. Both were exiled, for a decreed time, Ezekiel 4:4-6.
Judah has come back, but the House of Israel remains scattered among the nations.
Judah, the Jewish State of Israel, remains in apostasy, but the Northern 10 tribes of Israel, the people Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24, are now the Christian peoples from every race, nation and language. John sees them in Revelation 7:9

There is coming soon a punishment upon Judah, the third swing of the Sword; Ezekiel 21:1-16 and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27 We Christians have a destiny; to be God's people in His holy Land.
Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where we are there when the AC has his short season of power. Some will be taken to a place of safety. Revelation 12:14, and the rest must remain, Revelation 12:17, and as described in Daniel 11:30-35.

1. God did not separate them. In sin they separated themselves

2. The northern kingdom was given the lev 26 punismenet via assyria

3 the southern kingdom was given the lev 26 by Babylon, media-Persia, Greece and Rome. And will eventually be rome 2 and the antichrist

4 these two Nations who We’re divided and eventually scattered because if sin will be one nation again in the Lang God gave her father an and they will
Never be separated again

 

[Absolutely]

The chosen remnant elect Jew will be saved and (Added) to the Church, the vast majority of ethnic Jews will not be saved, but blinded.

Romans 11:5-8KJV
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Zechariah 14:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

""The chosen remnant elect Jew will be saved and (Added) to the Church, the vast majority of ethnic Jews will not be saved, but blinded.""

In Romans it says they will be grafted back in..

In rev 14 we see that.
Jesus gathers ripe fruit from the earth.
Covenant jews coming to Jesus the messiah.

Jesus first miracle was at a wedding. It was declared "you saved the best for last"
That is rev 14. The jews come in last.

 

[Keras]

1. God did not separate them. In sin they separated themselves

2. The northern kingdom was given the lev 26 punismenet via assyria

3 the southern kingdom was given the lev 26 by Babylon, media-Persia, Greece and Rome. And will eventually be rome 2 and the antichrist

4 these two Nations who We’re divided and eventually scattered because if sin will be one nation again in the Lang God gave her father an and they will
Never be separated again

1/ This [separation] is My doing, said the Lord. 1 Kings 12:24

2 & 3/ Ezekiel 4:4-6 decrees 390 years for the ten tribes of Israel and 40 years for the two tribes of Judah.
But Leviticus 26:18 multiplied the 390 X 7 and Leviticus 28:24 & 28 multiplies the 40 X 7 X 7, making a total of 2730 years exile for Israel and 1960 years of exile for Judah.
Judah has returned, since the Roman exile, but the House of Israel remains scattered among the nations, although from their exile by Assyria; circa 722 - 715 BC, their time is up about now.

4/ Yes; Ezekiel 37 awaits fulfillment. Dramatic events will happen to bring this about.
We see in Ezekiel 20:34-38, Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:24-26, that only the faithful Christian people will go to live in all of the holy Land.
Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, the holy people of God are there when the Anti-Christ starts his short time of world domination.

 

[Keras]

In Romans it says they will be grafted back in..

In Romans 11:17-24...it says the Jews could be grafted back in. Not that they all will be! And there are many Messianic Jews today.
But from many other prophesies, we know that only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27
The majority belong to the synagogue of Satan, Revelation 2:9, and their fate is destruction. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Amos 2:4-5

 

[StreetPreacher]

ROMANS 11:11

So I ask, did they (Israel) stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more WILL their full inclusion mean!

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Discussion for the end times? 'tis history, God's people now look for His coming.
After that there is nothing else, the earth is destroyed by intense heat (whatever form that may take) 2 Peter 3:10

REJOICE

 

[Truth7t7]

""The chosen remnant elect Jew will be saved and (Added) to the Church, the vast majority of ethnic Jews will not be saved, but blinded.""

In Romans it says they will be grafted back in..

In rev 14 we see that.
Jesus gathers ripe fruit from the earth.
Covenant jews coming to Jesus the messiah.

Jesus first miracle was at a wedding. It was declared "you saved the best for last"
That is rev 14. The jews come in last.

"The Rest Are Blind" "2/3 Will Be Cut Off And Die"

In Big Bold Red

Romans 11:5-8KJV
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.


Zechariah 14:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

 

[Keras]

ROMANS 11:11

So I ask, did they (Israel) stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more WILL their full inclusion mean!

You do not seem to be very careful when you type out verses:
Romans 11:12 .....how much more their fullness? KJV ,,,,,How much more will their attaining full strength be? REBible.

As we see in Israel today there are perhaps 30.000 Christians there. Out of about 8 Million; approx .05%
So, 'full inclusion', as you like to put it is wrong and no other prophecy supports that idea. Zechariah 13, for example says that 2/3rds will die. Many others tell of the virtual demise of Judah in the end times. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 21:1-16

The theory of a Jewish redemption, is a tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church doctrine. Neither is biblical and neither will happen.

 

[BenjaminN]

I already know how hard it is for people who have decided what they want the Lord to do for them, to read or even consider an alternative scenario for the events of the end times.
So; nothing further can be gained on the issue of who is the true Israel of God. Whether it is the Jews or the faithful Christians, will be revealed as events unfold. Those who had it wrong may bitterly regret their error.

Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah was a Jew who practised Judaism (in the sense of obeying God's commandments), and his followers, the TRUE CHURCH / BODY OF CHRIST (or Assembly of God's Covenant People). Our King is a Jew, the King of the TRUE CHURCH which is the regathered Lost Sheep of scattered Israel, assembled from among the nations, as God's covenant people.

All Jews in the TRUE CHURCH of which Yeshua ha'Maschiach / Jesus the Messiah is King is the true Israel / Church of God. The covenant people of the Church is the physical and adopted descendants of Israel / Jacob through the eternal covenant made to Abraham through Isaac as Jacob's father. The Church and Israel which are the same, have some Jews, as well as Arabs, Greeks, Germans, Spaniards, French, Khoi-San, Africans, Indians, Chinese, Australians, etc. amongst them. Those who follow the King of Israel / the Church, Yeshua ha'Maschiach, is God's covenant people.


John 11 (ESV)

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish." 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.


Acts 21 (ESV)

19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, 21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.


1 John 2 (ESV)

4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

If Yeshua ha'Maschiach / Jesus the Messiah is your King, you should follow him and do God's commandments - as the regathered/adopted, formerly scattered Israel, his covenant people as the descendants / adopted children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The covenant people will inherit the covenant land.


Jeremiah 31 (ESV)

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."