Discernment in visions and dreams

[garee]

I don't call tongues "a (sic) unknown wonderment"; you do.

None of what you wrote supports your position or refutes mine. The case of Cornelius absolutely undermines your position that tongues are always a sign to unbelievers. No amount of irrelevant convolution is going to change that.

Sure it does you are still saying there is a difference between tongues and prophecy. that easy to see. Then you started something about unbeliever not being there to hear prophecy .

The sign is not tongues, Tongues is prophecy .

Then what is tongues seeing you say it is not prophecy ?What does it reveal?

1 Corinthians 14 :21-22

 

[Dino246]

Sure it does you are still saying there is a difference between tongues and prophecy. that easy to see. Then you started something about unbeliever not being there to hear prophecy .

The sign is not tongues, Tongues is prophecy .

Did Cornelius speak in tongues... yes or no?

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Yes, Cornelius spoke in tongues. Were there any non-believers present? No. Was the tongues-speech a sign? Yes. Was it a sign to unbelievers? No.

It's really simple, Garee; the gift of speaking in tongues is not always a sign to unbelievers.

 

[garee]

Did Cornelius speak in tongues... yes or no?

Yes he prophesied.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Yes, Cornelius spoke in tongues. Were there any non-believers present? No. Was the tongues-speech a sign? Yes. Was it a sign to unbelievers? No.

The sign is for those who belive not. Tongue prophecy for those who do have faith . The sign is in effect at all times. Just like the stop sign at the end of the block .Violators don't have to be present to put the law into effect . Like a lighthouse it sends out it warning.

It's really simple, Garee; the gift of speaking in tongues is not always a sign to unbelievers.

It would be much more simple if you would turn it right side up . The sign is not prophecy. Tongues are.

The gift of speaking tongues as one of the many manners of prophecy is not the sign .Its at the end of the block separate from prophecy .

Sign for those rebels who beleive not prophecy. Tongues for those given the faith to believe God through prophecy .

What does the sign confirm. . . faith (belief) or no faith (un-belief ) curse or a blessing ?

 

[Dino246]

Yes he prophesied.

Scripture doesn't say that he prophesied; it says he (they) spoke in tongues. Therefore your statement is incorrect.

The sign is for those who belive not. Tongue prophecy for those who do have faith.

Do you believe that "tongues" and "speaking in tongues" are the same thing? If not, why not?

 

[garee]

Scripture doesn't say that he prophesied; it says he (they) spoke in tongues. Therefore your statement is incorrect.


Do you believe that "tongues" and "speaking in tongues" are the same thing? If not, why not?

Of course they are . . . prophecy prophesying declaring the will of God . What else could prophecy prophesy? a noise without meaning?

One of the manners of prophecy is speaking in tongue .They heard the gospel according to tongues /prophecy . Therefore the law in respect to the tongues doctrine remains a law. And the sign associated with it (God mocking those who mock him in unbelief) remains a sign . Yet for all that they still refuse to believe in tongues, prophecy .

What does the sign confirm ? Faith coming from prophecy as a tongue . . . or the sign of no faith exclusively coming from sola scriptura. or revealed below in

Isaiah 28: 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

To them it was the kind of tongue called a sign gift that men use today to confirm they are filled with the Spirit over and over. falling backward as a unknow force where men would have to seek after the private interpretation of other men . . "find someone that will give you what you want to hear". as oral traditions that does make the word of God without effect.

It sounds like someone tried really hard not to say a word that could be understood and believed. They said in isaiah 28 he speaks to us like we are babies . . Gaga googoo“Saw lasaw saw lasawQaw laqaw qaw laqawZe’er sham ze’er sham. Therefore mocking the word of God.

 

[Absolutely]

I don't call tongues "a (sic) unknown wonderment"; you do.

None of what you wrote supports your position or refutes mine. The case of Cornelius absolutely undermines your position that tongues are always a sign to unbelievers. No amount of irrelevant convolution is going to change that.

Paul's testimony also has him praying/speaking in tongues privately.

Its like saying my walk or lifes witness can only be of value to the sinner.
"Sign to this group or that"
The tongues vs prophecy "sign" is not limited to one group. It is only clarifying that tongues is not in the unbelievers carnal dimension. It can not conduct electricity. They are "shorted out" lol

 

[Dino246]

Of course they are . . . prophecy prophesying declaring the will of God . What else could prophecy prophesy? a noise without meaning?

One of the manners of prophecy is speaking in tongue .They heard the gospel according to tongues /prophecy . Therefore the law in respect to the tongues doctrine remains a law. And the sign associated with it (God mocking those who mock him in unbelief) remains a sign . Yet for all that they still refuse to believe in tongues, prophecy .

What does the sign confirm ? Faith coming from prophecy as a tongue . . . or the sign of no faith exclusively coming from sola scriptura. or revealed below in

Isaiah 28: 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

To them it was the kind of tongue called a sign gift that men use today to confirm they are filled with the Spirit over and over. falling backward as a unknow force where men would have to seek after the private interpretation of other men . . "find someone that will give you what you want to hear". as oral traditions that does make the word of God without effect.

It sounds like someone tried really hard not to say a word that could be understood and believed. They said in isaiah 28 he speaks to us like we are babies . . Gaga googoo“Saw lasaw saw lasawQaw laqaw qaw laqawZe’er sham ze’er sham. Therefore mocking the word of God.

Once again...

Do you believe that "tongues" and "speaking in tongues" are the same thing? If not, why not?

 

[garee]

Paul's testimony also has him praying/speaking in tongues privately.

Its like saying my walk or lifes witness can only be of value to the sinner.
"Sign to this group or that"
The tongues vs prophecy "sign" is not limited to one group. It is only clarifying that tongues is not in the unbelievers carnal dimension. It can not conduct electricity. They are "shorted out" lol

What is meant by praying/speaking in tongues privately? Meditating on the word of God as it works in a person ?

Tongues is prophecy. It cannot be against itself. Its prophecy or no prophecy. The sign point to unbelief, no prophecy. God mocking those who refuse to hear His word. . (sola scriptura)

No such thing as a "sign gift" to confirm a person is being filled with something .

 

[garee]

Once again...

Do you believe that "tongues" and "speaking in tongues" are the same thing? If not, why not?

I have answered that. Still waiting for the 213th time for you to confirm what the sign points to and confirms? belief or unbelief?

Yes, prophecy and declaring or speaking the tongue as prophecy, is prophesying.

The sign confirms those who do not believe prophecy the tongue of God.

The tongue is used throughout the bible to indicate we are seeking the approval of words .Not sounds without meaning.

Tongues likened as of fire show we have his approval ,

Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 1 Kings 18:38 .

Again tongues are used to show one has the approval .Can't seek the approval of God without words that show it.

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.Acts 2:3-4

Not as they made noises without meaning..to get filled with something rather than as the Spirit gave them utterance

 

[Dino246]

I have answered that. Still waiting for the 213th time for you to confirm what the sign points to and confirms? belief or unbelief?

Yes, prophecy and declaring or speaking the tongue as prophecy, is prophesying.

The sign confirms those who do not believe prophecy the tongue of God.

The tongue is used throughout the bible to indicate we are seeking the approval of words .Not sounds without meaning.

Tongues likened as of fire show we have his approval ,

Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 1 Kings 18:38 .

Again tongues are used to show one has the approval .Can't seek the approval of God without words that show it.

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.Acts 2:3-4

Not as they made noises without meaning..to get filled with something rather than as the Spirit gave them utterance

Apologies; I misread your earlier post. Given that, I will refer to them as "tongues" to be concise.

You say "tongues" are "prophecy". You also say that tongues are a sign to unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign to believers. This is impossible; one thing cannot be for two distinct, opposing purposes. Either they are the same thing for the same purpose, or they are different things for different purposes.

 

[Dino246]

No such thing as a "sign gift" to confirm a person is being filled with something .

You're disagreeing with Scripture. Acts 10 and 11 make it clear that tongues were a sign to Peter that Cornelius and his companions were filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dino246]

The sign confirms those who do not believe prophecy the tongue of God.

The sign of tongues demonstrated that Cornelius DID believe, not that he didn't.

The tongue is used throughout the bible to indicate we are seeking the approval of words .Not sounds without meaning.

I don't see that in Scripture at all. Please provide three references clearly showing it.

 

[Absolutely]

What is meant by praying/speaking in tongues privately? Meditating on the word of God as it works in a person ?

Tongues is prophecy. It cannot be against itself. Its prophecy or no prophecy. The sign point to unbelief, no prophecy. God mocking those who refuse to hear His word. . (sola scriptura)

No such thing as a "sign gift" to confirm a person is being filled with something .

I dont know what concept or verses causes you to take that position.
Firstly i would have to assume a prophecy in tongues would be impossible.
That means you are hamstrung from point a.

 

[garee]

I dont know what concept or verses causes you to take that position.
Firstly i would have to assume a prophecy in tongues would be impossible.
That means you are hamstrung from point a.

Tongues, other languages is one of the many manners God did bring prophecy

It would be impossible to believe tongues was anything other that the word of God, prophecy..

What else could it be? What is your rendition of the foundation of the tongues doctrine?

Sometime there can be two different foundations and neither person hears the other..

I believe Isaiah 28 is the foundation of the tongues doctrine .It as a law is revisited in 1 Corinthians 14:22:23

 

[garee]

The sign of tongues demonstrated that Cornelius DID believe, not that he didn't.

DID believe, not that he didn't.

Big difference between tongues as prophecy (no outward sign) And the sign of those who do not believe prophecy. Shown by their continual unbelief (yet for all that they still refuse to believe tongues the word of God ( 1 Corinthians14: and Isaiah 28) .

That which is seen today of those of kind of the oral tradition of "sign gifts" they are walking by sight and not by faith. They do practice and seek after to confirm something filling something as to what they call "unknown tongues" by making noises without meaning called it being filled ..

If a person believes Tongues Prophecy as the word of God the metaphorical signs follow after .They are not seen confirming outwardly , again used as metaphors . it is different as to its use then the sign spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14:22-23. it is not a metaphor but a sign that informs us sign are for those who beleive not prophecy the word of God as Tongues for those who do have faith.

You are turning things upside down again . The sign that someone has believed comes after. We do seek after those kind to confirm someone is being filled with something.?

That's not the sign in refence of 1 Corinthians 14

I don't see that in Scripture at all. Please provide three references clearly showing it

You do not see it because you deny Tongues is prophecy. Not seeing what is there rather than seeing what is. Tongue is prophecy.

If not prophecy then what? noise? unknown wonderment?

Again tongues. . . God's word is used throughout the bible to indicate we are seeking the approval of words .Not sounds without meaning.

Offering three words . Geneeisis1: "In the beginning" .It would prove what I am offering to be true. They are not sound without meaning or a unknown tongue.

A unseen filling of some unseen wonderment work ?????

 

[Dino246]

Big difference between tongues as prophecy (no outward sign) And the sign of those who do not believe prophecy.

Please clearly explain the distinction as you see it, and please give biblical evidence clearly supporting your position. No bafflegab, no dodging, just a plain and clear response.

Shown by their continual unbelief (yet for all that they still refuse to believe tongues the word of God ( 1 Corinthians14: and Isaiah 28) .

That's not what the Scripture says. You're adding to the word of God... again.

That which is seen today of those of kind of the oral tradition of "sign gifts" they are walking by sight and not by faith. They do practice and seek after to confirm something filling something as to what they call "unknown tongues" by making noises without meaning called it being filled ..

Once we agree on what Acts 10 tells us, then we can discuss modern-day speaking in tongues.

If a person believes Tongues Prophecy as the word of God the metaphorical signs follow after .They are not seen confirming outwardly , again used as metaphors . it is different as to its use then the sign spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14:22-23. it is not a metaphor but a sign that informs us sign are for those who beleive not prophecy the word of God as Tongues for those who do have faith.

The Bible says nothing of "metaphorical signs" regarding tongues.

You are turning things upside down again .

Yawn. That's what you are doing because you reject plain Scripture.

The sign that someone has believed comes after.

Which is EXACTLY what happened to Cornelius.

You do not see it because you deny Tongues is prophecy. Not seeing what is there rather than seeing what is. Tongue is prophecy.

I deny that tongues is prophecy because the Scripture distinguishes tongues from prophecy.

If not prophecy then what? noise? unknown wonderment?

See my closing comment below...

Again tongues. . . God's word is used throughout the bible to indicate we are seeking the approval of words .Not sounds without meaning.

Offering three words . Geneeisis1: "In the beginning" .It would prove what I am offering to be true. They are not sound without meaning or a unknown tongue.

This is no evidence to support your assertion.

A unseen filling of some unseen wonderment work ?????

Despite us discussing this topic for several months, you don't seem to have a freaking clue what I believe on this subject. I despise your ignorant mockery. You have no excuse.

 

[Mii]

I just stumbled in here looking for the topic but something struck me and I'd like some clarification if you would @Dino246

What do you mean one thing cannot mean two distinct opposing things?


You mean tongues being prophecy to a believer and a sign to a non-believer? because I see opposing messages to them that believe not and them that do all over the NT. Like the pharisees interaction with Jesus or End times events and what the people in the world make of them etc.

Or is this argument predicated on whether or not tongues is prophetic? Sorry for jumping in randomly...it just seems somewhat out of place but I am also not very well versed in the topic.

I've heard "tongues" all my life growing up in Pentecostal churches but it has always confused me. It feels like the Lord but I'm not sure.

I've heard some people say it's other languages as per the initial outpouring and Peter's message but also private prayer language as well as prophetic words of encouragement and edification. So I get somewhat confused and have moved away from charismatic understandings, because it's hard to tell. I used to do it myself around 16-18 and then just stopped when I went to college. I didn't hear a whiff of it at the "christian" university I went to. Plenty of other things that I do appreciate but not tongues...so my personal experience and what the word says...I'm open to it, just that there seems to be a false version. I'm just not sure how he feels about it.

I'm on the fence about what prophecy is in general in the modern world. I've had things spoken over me...but thinking back I still don't get stuff like that, regardless of whether or not it seems to come true. Same thing with dreams. There are different sources of these things and so I treat some people with skepticism and some with due consideration.

Not sure, I just feel like mostly tongues is other languages, word of edification, and private prayer. Whereas prophecy is something different. Is it possible they could intersect at times in some people's minds? I suppose.

 

[Dino246]

I just stumbled in here looking for the topic but something struck me and I'd like some clarification if you would @Dino246

What do you mean one thing cannot mean two distinct opposing things?


You mean tongues being prophecy to a believer and a sign to a non-believer? because I see opposing messages to them that believe not and them that do all over the NT. Like the pharisees interaction with Jesus or End times events and what the people in the world make of them etc.

Or is this argument predicated on whether or not tongues is prophetic? Sorry for jumping in randomly...it just seems somewhat out of place but I am also not very well versed in the topic.

I've heard "tongues" all my life growing up in Pentecostal churches but it has always confused me. It feels like the Lord but I'm not sure.

I've heard some people say it's other languages as per the initial outpouring and Peter's message but also private prayer language as well as prophetic words of encouragement and edification. So I get somewhat confused and have moved away from charismatic understandings, because it's hard to tell. I used to do it myself around 16-18 and then just stopped when I went to college. I didn't hear a whiff of it at the "christian" university I went to. Plenty of other things that I do appreciate but not tongues...so my personal experience and what the word says...I'm open to it, just that there seems to be a false version. I'm just not sure how he feels about it.

I'm on the fence about what prophecy is in general in the modern world. I've had things spoken over me...but thinking back I still don't get stuff like that, regardless of whether or not it seems to come true. Same thing with dreams. There are different sources of these things and so I treat some people with skepticism and some with due consideration.

Not sure, I just feel like mostly tongues is other languages, word of edification, and private prayer. Whereas prophecy is something different. Is it possible they could intersect at times in some people's minds? I suppose.

Hi Mii...

My discussion with Garee goes back many months, and maybe over a year. He asserts that 'tongues" is prophecy. I disagree strongly, because Scripture clearly distinguishes them in 1 Corinthians 14. That's not to say that the message given in tongues could not be prophetic in nature. However, Paul says that prophecy has one purpose and effect, while tongues has another. That means they aren't the same thing. Paul wouldn't waste half a chapter talking about the distinction if they were the same thing.

Garee asserts that 'tongues' are a sign to unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign to believers, which is completely contrary to his assertion that they are the same thing, but for some reason he is unable to grasp the contradiction, despite my repeated efforts to explain it to him.

I have no doubt that some 'speaking in tongues' is genuinely a gift of the Holy Spirit, while some is fakery, whether well-intentioned by the speaker or actual false imitation from the enemy. Garee and others assert that it is all fake.

As for prophecy, I have seen it at work in real life, so I have no doubt that God still speaks. Again though, there are errors and fakes. I would encourage you to do some further study on the subject.

 

[Absolutely]

I just stumbled in here looking for the topic but something struck me and I'd like some clarification if you would @Dino246

What do you mean one thing cannot mean two distinct opposing things?


You mean tongues being prophecy to a believer and a sign to a non-believer? because I see opposing messages to them that believe not and them that do all over the NT. Like the pharisees interaction with Jesus or End times events and what the people in the world make of them etc.

Or is this argument predicated on whether or not tongues is prophetic? Sorry for jumping in randomly...it just seems somewhat out of place but I am also not very well versed in the topic.

I've heard "tongues" all my life growing up in Pentecostal churches but it has always confused me. It feels like the Lord but I'm not sure.

I've heard some people say it's other languages as per the initial outpouring and Peter's message but also private prayer language as well as prophetic words of encouragement and edification. So I get somewhat confused and have moved away from charismatic understandings, because it's hard to tell. I used to do it myself around 16-18 and then just stopped when I went to college. I didn't hear a whiff of it at the "christian" university I went to. Plenty of other things that I do appreciate but not tongues...so my personal experience and what the word says...I'm open to it, just that there seems to be a false version. I'm just not sure how he feels about it.

I'm on the fence about what prophecy is in general in the modern world. I've had things spoken over me...but thinking back I still don't get stuff like that, regardless of whether or not it seems to come true. Same thing with dreams. There are different sources of these things and so I treat some people with skepticism and some with due consideration.

Not sure, I just feel like mostly tongues is other languages, word of edification, and private prayer. Whereas prophecy is something different. Is it possible they could intersect at times in some people's minds? I suppose.

Yes.
They can and do intersect

 

[Ruby123]

Hi Danja,

Have you had any clarity re your original question for discernment in dreams?