Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[gaviriachristian]

Wow. Is there anything else you'd like to add to Scripture while you're on a roll? I'll go with what the text actually says, which is "works of the law". Paul didn't limit it to circumcision and sabbath observance.

Your view on the wrath against unbelieving gentiles is completely without biblical foundation.

I haven't added anything to scripture. Obedience to the Torah is what the Messiah and apostles taught, read for yourself,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah…
Matthew 5:17

It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Torah.
Luke 16:17

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Torah until everything is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18

Do we, then, nullify the Torah by this belief? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the Torah.
Romans 3:31

For it is not the hearers of the Torah who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Torah who will be justified.
Romans 2:13

if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the Torah; if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the ignorant, a teacher of little children, because you have in the Torah the embodiment of knowledge and truth
Romans 2:18-20


The Torah of Yehovah is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of Yehovah are trustworthy, making wise the simple.
Psalm 19:7

Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the Torah of Yehovah, and who meditates on his Torah day and night.
Psalm 1:1-2

You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them judgments that are righteous and Torot that are true and statutes and commandments that are good.
Nehemiah 9:13

Now we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those who are under the Torah, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Romans 3:19

You have been deceived into a believing a lie that the Torah has been done away with, and therefore if you continue on this path will fall under one of these,

On that day many will say to me, ‘Master, Master, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of torahlessness.’
Matthew 7:22-23

 

[gaviriachristian]

if circumcision is not required how do you choose what is required from torah and what isnt?

some parts of torah are done away with but not all? seems confusing. i think its easy. what commands new testament repeats are for the church. simple.

By what the apostles declared is no longer necessary to observe. They indicated specific things in the Torah that are no longer necessary for us to observe under the new covenant. Anything related to food, drink, feasts, appointed times, new moons, shabbaths, circumcision of the flesh. Also, under the new covenant the definition of adultery has been expanded, which includes remarriage after divorce, for only death can break a marriage, which by implication also forbids polygamy, which was permitted through Moses, for now only one man may marry one woman, hence the reason Paul mentions, "married to one woman".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Messiah did not amend the Torah by saying that only those who have never sinned can carry out the death penalty of the Torah. He merely put everyone at the same level as the adulteress, that we must ALL repent from the sins we have ALL committed. But certainly the adulteress deserved to die for what she did, and at the second coming of the Messiah, adulterers will be put to death again, but this time not with stones, but with aeonial fire. And the ones to carry out these judgments are not the Messiah himself, but the people of God, who were previously sinners in the previous bodies, for the people of God will be granted authority to judge the world. So no, the Messiah did not amend the Torah in this instance regarding who can carry out the death penalty.

And yes, I wear tzitzit every day I go out. Do you not see them in my picture?

you just condemned king david

A confessed adulterer

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good. May it be an example for you to also do the same. For these commands of the Torah are indeed necessary to obey under the new covenant still.

what happens if I do not?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I suggest you change that picture to avoid an appearance of evil. Catholic nuns holding guns? It is not worthy of any person that professes to be a believer.

really?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What you are saying is simply not true, because what you are implying is this, "since I cannot tithe, since there are no priests, then I am not obligated to obey the entire Torah, for it is all or nothing", which is "lawlessness", which is discarding the entire Torah, "torahlessness". The entire Torah is indeed still binding, but under the new covenant certain matters of Torah are fulfilled differently than under the old covenant, such as the requirement to kill the Passover lamb every year. Under the new covenant we already have a Passover lamb that was killed, and it is the Messiah, therefore we are not required to kill lambs every year, because we fulfill that requirement of the Torah through the Messiah. This is why Paul said, "let no one judge you by food, drink, feast, new moon, or shabbath, for these are all foreshadows of realities in the Messiah" and also why it is written, "for when there is a change in priesthood there must also be a change in the Torah". And it is through this understanding that we obey the entire Torah, but differently under the new covenant. You see me wearing tzitzit, but I eat pork, which may seem contradictory or as torahlessness, but under the new covenant certain matters of Torah have changed, such as the matter of food, which goes back to what Noah was told, "everything that moves shall be food for you", meaning clean and unclean. Abstaining from eating pork under the old covenant of Moses foreshadowed a greater reality, abstaining from friendships with unbelievers, who according to the scriptures, are considering pigs, hence "do not throw your pearls to pigs". But many people, such as yourself, take these examples in the new testament of matters of the Torah that are no longer required to be observed under the new covenant to mean that the entire Torah has been done away, which is a great error, and go into the extreme of torahlessness, which is worse than disbelief. This is why the Messiah said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah" and will say to many believers, "depart from me, you workers of torahlessness".

Hey someone gets it!!

now, since you can not obey ALL.. What are you to do?

 

[gaviriachristian]

if circumcision is not required how do you choose what is required from torah and what isnt?

some parts of torah are done away with but not all? seems confusing. i think its easy. what commands new testament repeats are for the church. simple.

Also, you cannot base your definition of "sin" on only what the new testament says, for the new testament does not reveal everything that sin is, the Torah does, hence "in the Torah is the knowledge of sin". The Torah is the broad definition of everything that is sin, and the new testament mentions matters of the Torah here and there as the apostles repeated what was already commanded in the Torah throughout their epistles. For example, the apostles repeated that adulterers and homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, which came from the Torah, which says, "you shall not commit adultery" and "a man shall not lay with a man". But the Torah also forbids a man from laying with a woman while she is menstruating. This is mentioned no where in the new testament. And that is why you must know the Torah to know what sin is, not just read the new testament and know nothing about the commands of the Torah.

 

[Dino246]

I haven't added anything to scripture. Obedience to the Torah is what the Messiah and apostles taught, read for yourself,

You have been deceived into a believing a lie that the Torah has been done away with, and therefore if you continue on this path will fall under one of these,

On that day many will say to me, ‘Master, Master, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of torahlessness.’
Matthew 7:22-23

I don't know what version you use, but "torahlessness" is not an English word. We can discuss English, or we can discuss the Hebrew or Greek behind it, but I'm not going to waste my time with gobbledegook.

I have not used the phrase "done away with" in reference to the torah; don't put words in my mouth. I came to the conclusions I have by reading Scripture. I suggest you drop the habit of making accusations based on assumptions.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It depends, if what is considered to be evil by man is also considered to be evil by God. A believer promulgating photos of nuns holding guns is certainly something that God would take offense by. But it is your choice what you choose to do with your own profile. You mentioned your own photo, so I gave you my opinion regarding it.

whats the difference between a nun holding a gun and a cowboy holding a gun?

You forget peter carried a sword?

 

[gaviriachristian]

I don't know what version you use, but "torahlessness" is not an English word. We can discuss English, or we can discuss the Hebrew or Greek behind it, but I'm not going to waste my time with gobbledegook.

I have not used the phrase "done away with" in reference to the torah; don't put words in my mouth. I came to the conclusions I have by reading Scripture. I suggest you drop the habit of making accusations based on assumptions.

The Greek word "anomia" means "torahlessness", meaning rejecting the Torah and living without the Torah.

 

[Dino246]

Also, you cannot base your definition of "sin" on only what the new testament says, for the new testament does not reveal everything that sin is, the Torah does

Actually, it does, with crystal clarity:

Romans 14:23b everything that does not come from faith is sin.

 

[Dino246]

The Greek word "anomia" means "torahlessness", meaning rejecting the Torah and living without the Torah.

Yawn. It means lawlessness, not "torahlessness". Don't be ridiculous.

 

[gaviriachristian]

Yawn. It means lawlessness, not "torahlessness". Don't be ridiculous.

Lawlessness is torahlessness. The "law" being spoken of is the "torah".

 

[gaviriachristian]

Actually, it does, with crystal clarity:

Romans 14:23b everything that does not come from faith is sin.

You can make yourself believe whatever lie you want to believe, but it is not the truth. The Torah is still binding. Blessed are those who know and understand this and obey the Torah through belief in Yeshuah.

 

[Marcelo]

The "works of the Torah" means circumcision of the flesh and weekly shabbath rest, which are no longer required to be observed under the new covenant, not setting aside the entire Torah. .......

I don't think it's up to us to decide which Mitzvot still remain in force and which Mitzvot can be discarded. Jesus preached obedience to the whole law of Moses (613 ordinances)!

 

[Dan_473]

Those who believe in Yeshuah and obey the commands of the Torah.

Acts 15: 1. Some men came down from Judea and taught the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can't be saved."

In your view, then, have the brothers spoken of above received the holy Spirit?

 

[gaviriachristian]

I don't think it's up to us to decide which Mitzvot still remain in force and which Mitzvot can be discarded. Jesus preached obedience to the whole law of Moses (613 ordinances)!

Indeed it isn't up to us, it is up to the men of God who had the airflow of God to instruct us in the way, in which case, the Messiah instructed that the Torah is still binding, and Paul instructed that circumcision of the flesh, shabbaths, new moons, feasts, appointed times, food, drink are not necessary to observe in the Torah, because they are fulfilled differently under the new covenant, but all other matters of the Torah are still required. This is not difficult to understand, but of course, for someone who doesn't want to obey the Torah at all they would rather make themselves believe that the entire Torah including circumcision of the flesh is still necessary to obey to then justify discarding it completely, which is torahlessness, which is what you people are essentially doing, which is an error that will cost you your own soul.

 

[gaviriachristian]

Acts 15: 1. Some men came down from Judea and taught the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can't be saved."

In your view, then, have the brothers spoken of above received the holy Spirit?

Obedience to the Torah is one thing, circumcision of the flesh is another thing. Circumcision of the flesh is no longer required, one matter of the Torah, which does not imply that the entire Torah is now abolished, for that would be torahlessness. Understand.

 

[Melach]

Also, you cannot base your definition of "sin" on only what the new testament says, for the new testament does not reveal everything that sin is, the Torah does, hence "in the Torah is the knowledge of sin". The Torah is the broad definition of everything that is sin, and the new testament mentions matters of the Torah here and there as the apostles repeated what was already commanded in the Torah throughout their epistles. For example, the apostles repeated that adulterers and homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God, which came from the Torah, which says, "you shall not commit adultery" and "a man shall not lay with a man". But the Torah also forbids a man from laying with a woman while she is menstruating. This is mentioned no where in the new testament. And that is why you must know the Torah to know what sin is, not just read the new testament and know nothing about the commands of the Torah.

and thats why i dont believe its a sin to lay with a woman while shes menstruating because its not repeated in the new testament. these are ritual purity commands. not moral commands

 

[Marcelo]

Indeed it isn't up to us, it is up to the men of God who had the airflow of God to instruct us in the way, in which case, the Messiah instructed that the Torah is still binding, and Paul instructed that circumcision of the flesh, shabbaths, new moons, feasts, appointed times, food, drink are not necessary to observe in the Torah, because they are fulfilled differently under the new covenant, but all other matters of the Torah are still required. This is not difficult to understand, but of course, for someone who doesn't want to obey the Torah at all they would rather make themselves believe that the entire Torah including circumcision of the flesh is still necessary to obey to then justify discarding it completely, which is torahlessness, which is what you people are essentially doing, which is an error that will cost you your own soul.

Do you have a list of effective ordinances?