Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[page-1]

Jesus Christ explicitly says the priests in the temple profane/desecrate/break the sabbath without guilt. moreover, that this is found in the law itself.

To argue that Jesus was renouncing the validity of the Sabbath in Matthew 12:3-7 is to, at the same time, side with the Jews who were accusing Him of doing exactly that and thus vindicate their accusations against Him. What His disciples were breaking were the additional laws placed on the Sabbath, not the Sabbath itself. This was made explicit when Jesus said "It is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days."

Nevertheless, the position of objective moral values remains.

 

[page-1]

I have the impression from the gospels that Jesus was not intending for people to be chained to a tyrant. So that would be an example where the wise thing to do is to follow the spirit of jesus's instruction, but not the letter.

Thank you for your response! I believe that Jesus was dismissing the concept of keeping the law out of obligation, but rather, because one wants to out of love.

 

[RickStudies]

I disagree.

I think if GOD says that He will do something then He doesn't do half of it. And leave the other half for you.

He definitely doesn't say He will do something and declare it is finished if it is not.


Just my opinion of the Lord Jesus Christ. I won't push this too much because it seems excessively mean.

Like when Elijah made fun of the prophets of baal.

Difference is Elijah knew what he was doing. The failure was on the part of Israel as I have said in other posts.

Jesus didn`t fail, Israel did.

You weren`t mean at all just ignorant. Jesus won`t come back until Israel is ready for Him.

 

[Dan_473]

So does He interpret it for us somewhere else? How do you "fulfill a prophet" ?

Yes, I believe he does!

Matthew 7: 12. All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because this is the law and the prophets.

Did Jesus do this? Yes, to the highest degree possible! Because he was in the form of God, and he emptied himself and became a servant for us.

 

[Dan_473]

My question is, "is the marry brother widow valid" under the law of the kingdom of God, or has it been rendered "void" as the law of Moses has expired"

I don't think that the law has expired, I think that it has been fulfilled
Galatians 5: 14. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

So no, we don't marry our dead brother's wife. But we do want to be aware of the vulnerable in our society, as a widow was vulnerable in ancient Israel.

 

[posthuman]

I just want to say if I did that, Sorry.

o i'm not saying it's something wrong. it's just curious. i'm sure there are many reasons it could come about - just that most often, people join, go through the introductions section, etc

i've been thinking for a while how it is here, that the majority of people actively posting in the BDF are all 'teaching' with most of what they write -- like, everyone has an air of 'having everything figured out' and their purpose is to set everyone else straight.

of course, the demographic of people who join a Christian discussion board and haunt a Bible/theology discussion section of it, is biased towards people who do have a relatively uncommon interest in scripture, are relatively well versed in it, have spent a lot of time thinking about doctrine, and are relatively better grounded in these things than your average pew-sitter. your average pew-sitter doesn't read their Bible much outside of church, doesn't occupy their minds with thoughts about the gospel or the nature of God or how to understand what's written in the book. so, it's expected that the people who are members of CC and more than just being members, are active in the BDF, are by and large more apt to teach and more apt to have much more well-thought-out positions about various things in the Bible and about the nature and work of God.

however -- even with a subgroup of people like we have here, generally very 'Biblically literate' shall we say, there's still an overwhelming sense that most people here act like they have a lot more to instruct others about than they do to learn about themselves. so we get lots of threads where there's a handful of 'experts' each fussing at the other 'experts' that they are the only real expert in the bunch and the rest of them aren't as expert as they think. and every one of the handful has that same attitude, and none of them budge, and no one is swayed, and this root of bitterness evolves from it where the whole handful look at each other like heretics from thenceforth and hardly even consider what each other might say afterwards; they've all written each other off.

so, i like to ask questions. i think there should be a lot more questions being asked.
sometimes i have an idea of what the answers really are, sometimes i don't. i just think, this is how we learn: we ask all the questions about something that we can, and look for the answers to them -- the answers bring up even more questions, some obvious, some not. sometimes question's can't even be answered, sometimes the questions themselves shake up what we thought were answers to other questions, so questions that we thought were answered need to be revisited. all in all, i think it's often much more useful to ask questions and see how trying to answer them develops, than it is to just sort of 'stand at a pulpit' and talk 'at' people. people who already think they have something all figured out hardly ever listen when you tell them you've already got it all figured out too and your explanation ain't theirs - but questions are different. if they don't just ignore or skirt your questions, then they have to actually examine what they think they have figured out, to try to answer them.

plus:
God is infinite. His word is infinite. His ways are not ours, but far, far above us - and there are many mysteries which mankind can hardly comprehend in this book. there simply ought to be way more questions than answers, in balance, in the BDF -- if we take an honest look at things, who we are, and who He is. He is far and above us, and His work is beyond searching out. that means, lots -- tons -- of things we don't actually know or understand. things we ought to be asking questions about, proving, testing. like 'good Bereans' studying, not vain people puffing.

not accusing anyone. just commenting in a general sense.

 

[posthuman]

I had an argument on my mind regarding the law of Moses, so I was merely "googling" the term "law of Moses discussion" and went through a couple of websites and landed here. Registered, and then started commenting.

May I ask why you perceive an argument from premises a lecture of sorts?

awesome. i found this place first by doing something similar, tho a totally different subject. it turned out to have a wealth of knowledge within its forum-walls.

an argument from premise isn't a 'question' -- tho, tbh, Socratic method et al: asking questions can be 'teaching' too

perhaps my post just before this one gives you some insight to what i was thinking

 

[Dan_473]

Thank you for your response! I believe that Jesus was dismissing the concept of keeping the law out of obligation, but rather, because one wants to out of love.

If you mean keeping the spirit of the law out of love for God, then yes I say Amen.

If you mean keep the letter of the law, for example don't eat pork, then we would differ on that part.

 

[DeighAnn]

I don't think that the law has expired, I think that it has been fulfilled
Galatians 5: 14. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

So no, we don't marry our dead brother's wife. But we do want to be aware of the vulnerable in our society, as a widow was vulnerable in ancient Israel.

Speaking on the law of Moses

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

 

[posthuman]

Thank you for your response! I believe that Jesus was dismissing the concept of keeping the law out of obligation, but rather, because one wants to out of love.

on the sabbath topic, i do think that, similar to the circumcision argument Galatians, if one is keeping sabbaths under the premise that they are covenantally bound to as a legal term/requirement of receiving the 'free gift' of salvation through the gospel of Christ, then it can be just as evil and just as much 'making the cross of none effect' as accepting circumcision was in Galatia.
and i also think that, if anyone, out of love for God, devote themselves to Him by physical observation of a day, then that is good. this seems to me to be the crux of what is written in Romans 14, that one man regards a day, and another doesn't, but both do so to the Lord, are the Lord's servants, should not be judged by and should not judge one another, for the Lord is who makes them stand ((vis-a-vis Exodus, Ezekiel, God gave Israel sabbaths explicitly as a sign that it is He who sanctifies them. it is God who justifies, who sanctifies, and who makes His servant stand)).

if i take any other view, i find i have to really pervert Colossians 2 to keep that view.

 

[DeighAnn]

Yes, I believe he does!

Matthew 7: 12. All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because this is the law and the prophets.

Did Jesus do this? Yes, to the highest degree possible! Because he was in the form of God, and he emptied himself and became a servant for us.

I am not understanding how that fulfills a prophet.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus Christ explicitly says the priests in the temple profane/desecrate/break the sabbath without guilt. moreover, that this is found in the law itself.

To argue that Jesus was renouncing the validity of the Sabbath in Matthew 12:3-7 is to, at the same time, side with the Jews who were accusing Him of doing exactly that and thus vindicate their accusations against Him. What His disciples were breaking were the additional laws placed on the Sabbath, not the Sabbath itself. This was made explicit when Jesus said "It is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days."

Nevertheless, the position of objective moral values remains.

this isn't about what His disciples were doing, but about what the priests do according to the law -- not outside of the law, but according to the commandments themselves -- and also about what David & his men did, how that it was clearly contrary to the law and the law would condemn them, without question, but they were innocent. again, the proscription against eating shewbread is not a 'tradition' added by men. it's a clear, explicit commandment in the law itself.

if you use the 'quote' function i'll be alerted that you've responded to me. either hit 'reply' or highlight a part of a post and a 'reply' button appears, that puts what you're responding to in the box for you to make a new post with.

 

[Dan_473]

hit 'reply' or highlight a part of a post and a 'reply' button appears

I didn't know about this feature, I think this will be very handy sometimes!

 

[Dan_473]

I am not understanding how that fulfills a prophet.

Not a particular prophet, the prophets as a group.

The prophets taught things. There was a central goal to their teaching. What is that Central goal?
Matthew 7: 12. Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

 

[Gentle-Warrior]

Hi Marcelo, where does the Apostle Paul tell us that we aren't supposed to obey the Law?

Thanks!

~Deut

I don't obey the law, I obey a Person.

 

[DeighAnn]

not accusing anyone. just commenting in a general sense.

I can tell you I am learning a bunch of new stuff. Thanks be to God and to all here. AND I am really having my wisdom and knowledge refined to a smooth well argued out understanding.

I think God wrote the bible as He did for the very reason we see here. Flesh men, even walking after the spirit, need to have controversy to stay involved. Could you imagine how quickly the Bible would be set down if we all agreed?? Just the discussion keeps us close to the Lord. And He gives us all different gifts. If that doesn't ensure different directions I don't know what does. And look at how much of the Word we learn that we never would have. Something so important that I see or you see that we never saw. I have had a lot of that to.

One thing I wish is that "revelations" were" acknowledged more often". Those have been THE biggest blessings of my life. As long as I am learning new truths I know God is still with me. I always go back to the "talents" and How He is looking for us to make more with what He gives us and not just hold on tight to the little bit we received in the beginning of our walk.

Yes, we are Definitely blessed and maybe a TINY bit cursed to have so many with a love for the Word all brought together to sort out the wisdom and knowledge. But think, no matter how wrong we may be right now, it will all be set right. Do you remember the first time God ever came and took you away? Of course you do. If someone were to ask me what was the best day of my entire life, that one wins hands down. I had been studying for a really long time, I had tons of knowledge, but it wasn't until that day that God took it all, set it all straight and gave me a sliver of His wisdom. It was like a deck of cards when you shuffle them and then you bridge them together to make a perfect little stack of cards. To this day I don't know how long it took. Could have been a milli second or an hour I have no clue. I just know it opened my eyes to why the "study and seeking is ever so important. We take that with us.

Now I have forgotten the point. But I say thank you for the post and the sharing. I say as long as we are growing in knowledge we are doing well. It is when we are not, (my biggest fear) we are to worry. So the debate is good. The only thing that would be better would be if we all "wrote" with our fingers on the back button a bit more. I do worry about those who come seeking and they see us, professing to be "Christian" treating each other like heathens would, no better, no sign of the spirit within us leading us to a "higher" peculiar type attitude. I am at fault myself, a little better, not much, but I really do try and I feel I am improving. Just want to make God happy when He sees me. ( You would not believe how much I want to write in capital letters, and many times do only to hit the back button and write it all again because I have been told it doesn't come off well).

So once again thank you.

 

[RickStudies]

I don't obey the law, I obey a Person.

View attachment 204093

That`s one the smoothest ducks on a question I ever seen.

 

[Dan_473]

OH! And, I would, and do a whole lot more then even that!

I would make for a terrible jew in the flesh! Wouldn't I?

Yet, you keep trying to "pigeon hole" me as one! Doncha?

I can't help that ya don't "get it!"

What I do get, is in your trying to understand?

You are not understanding very much!

Not very much at all!

Here's some more reasons why I think details could really help on this thread.

I know a nice man who was raised Jewish and is now a Methodist pastor. He sometimes wears a yamaka, and he has talked about eating Hebrew national hot dogs.

That he was ordained as a Methodist pastor tells me that he has given at least verbal assent to the basic theologies of the Methodist Church.

The yamaka and the hot dogs lead me to believe that he likes to keep Jewish traditions.

But there's yet another detail, he also told me that when he orders bacon at a restaurant, he tells them to put it in the deep fryer so it will be extra crispy.

That he likes crispy bacon tells me that he doesn't keep the law, at least not the letter of it.

So just a few details provides lots of information. (And I'm happy to talk about my details, it just doesn't seem polite to go on about oneself if one hasn't been asked.)

Think of all the hundreds of posts on this thread that could have been saved if people who talk about keeping the law would also talk about details like ordering bacon at a restaurant!

 

[gb9]

That`s one the smoothest ducks on a question I ever seen.

like your dodge on the Sabbath question?

 

[RickStudies]

Here's some more reasons why I think details could really help on this thread.

I know a nice man who was raised Jewish and is now a Methodist pastor. He sometimes wears a yamaka, and he has talked about eating Hebrew national hot dogs.

That he was ordained as a Methodist pastor tells me that he has given at least verbal assent to the basic theologies of the Methodist Church.

The yamaka and the hot dogs lead me to believe that he likes to keep Jewish traditions.

But there's yet another detail, he also told me that when he orders bacon at a restaurant, he tells them to put it in the deep fryer so it will be extra crispy.

That he likes crispy bacon tells me that he doesn't keep the law, at least not the letter of it.

So just a few details provides lots of information. (And I'm happy to talk about my details, it just doesn't seem polite to go on about oneself if one hasn't been asked.)

Think of all the hundreds of posts on this thread that could have been saved if people who talk about keeping the law would also talk about details like ordering bacon at a restaurant!

Ok, so add details. I got attacked so early and so consistently since that I`ve never been able to discuss what I think about law keeping. I`ve been too busy trying to convince people that God`s law deserves some respect and consideration