Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

Grandpa · Sep 2, 2019

I wanted to answer this part of your remarks separate from that of the details I requested to rebut the link I shared, as you said there were multiple errors therein.
As pertains to Constantine and his council changing the day of worship to Sunday:
March 7th, 321 AD Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3
On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time

As pertains to Easter and Constantine.
On the Keeping of Easter. From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council. (Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18–20.) When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable, than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,113 we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter, which we have observed from the time of the Saviour’s Passion to the present day [according 113 We must read !"#$%, not &"'#$%, as the Mayence impression of the edition of Valerius has it. 114 NPNF (V2-14) Philip Schaff to the day of the week]. We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course (the order of the days of the week); and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast.

Constantine ruled from 306-337.

The apostles already worshipped on sundays for 300 years prior to this.

So to say that Constantine changed it is wrong.

Constantine just made it universal for Romans, apparently.

Not really sure why you posted about easter. Except to show that Constantine was a Christian. Good for him.

Whispered · Sep 2, 2019

Here is another resource saying the same thing concerning emperor Constantine's change of the Sabbath day to Sunday.
“On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time [A.D. 321].)” Source: Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol.3 (5th ed.; New York: Scribner, 1902), p.380, note 1.

What many Christians may not realize is that while Constantine was thought to be a devoted Christian, and who is to say he was not, he none the less held to his pagan roots. Even going so far as to have a coin pressed that featured Christ on one side and on the opposite side the image of the sun god.

204 The Emperor Constantine

of his ancient patron deity Apollo; but the glory of the sunbeams
was composed of the emblems of the Crucifixion, and under-
neath its feet were buried in strange juxtaposition a fragment of
the " True Cross " and the ancient Palladium of Rome. His
coins bore on the one side the letters of the name of Christ ; on
the other the figure of the Sun-god, and the inscription " Sol
invictus," as if he could not bear to relinquish the patronage of
the bright luminary which represented to him, as to Augustus
and to Julian, 1 his own guardian deity.

Whispered · Sep 2, 2019

Grandpa said:

I think if you would have read what was posted about that you would understand.

Furthermore, I posted because it was stated that it was a falsehood that Constantine changed the Sabbath to Sunday. The proof that it is not false was posted for that reason.
Apparently, that you thought it was false would indicate you did not know Christians had worshiped for centuries on Sunday prior.

Are you working on the point for point rebuttal ? Those numerous errors you claimed you found in my prior link? https://therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

I'm looking forward to your presentation.

Grandpa · Sep 2, 2019

Whispered said:

I did read it.

I didn't disagree with what he wrote.

Did you?

Whispered · Sep 2, 2019

Grandpa said:

Not when I posted it, no.

In case you missed my other request, are you still working on those rebuttals to my link? https://therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

Grandpa · Sep 2, 2019

Whispered said:

It is false.

Constantine didn't change anything.

It was already changed 300 years before he was even in power.

He just agreed with the change, he was in power and he made it a law for Romans.

Christians didn't meet on Saturdays. They met on Sundays. The day the Lord resurrected.

Constantine agreed with Christianity and made it a law for Romans. 300 years after it was already being done.

Magenta · Sep 2, 2019

DeighAnn said:

The Old Testament pointed the Jews to Jesus. The New Testament points the Gentiles to Jesus. Jesus points all towards kingdom of God.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while He is near

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return unto the LORD and he will have mercy upon him and to our God for he will abundantly pardon.
(What happens to the wicked who do not forsake their way and unrighteous man his thoughts, and do not return unto the Lord? No mercy and no pardon)

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(because man doesn't think like God)

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(study, to show yourself approved, don't judge)

Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it

Isaiah 55:10-11

Lightskin · Sep 2, 2019

Yahshua said:

This is a thread about law.

300 pages of conversation has been about law, whether to work it or not.

All the labels levied against members relate to law.

Has that not been the context since the beginning, Post: the law?

What is grace always pit against in these threads?

Hence "grace only, do nothing (......in the law)" doctrine.

I read this three times and am still confused.

Lightskin · Sep 2, 2019

wokinluv said:

And I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has taught us, that God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Whispered · Sep 2, 2019

Grandpa said:

Starting in 150 AD. That isn't the first of Christian worship however. Furthermore, just because a people altered the Sabbath day does not mean it usurps the authority of scripture in that matter.

“On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read. … Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead” (Justin Martyr, First Apology, 67; ANF 1:186).

Furthermore, Sunday is not the day of our Lord's resurrection. The Bible does not say that.
The Book of Matthew chapter 28 verses 1-6
The Resurrection of Jesus
After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And suddenly there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, descending from heaven, came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 For fear of him the guards shook and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he[a] lay.

Grandpa · Sep 2, 2019

Whispered said:

I was. But they got erased because I hit a button on accident and couldn't bring it back up.

When I finished I saw it would probably be a big argument about eschatology. I don't really get involved with eschatology because I think everyone is wrong. I haven't seen any eschatology that I thought was even very close to what I believe.

Basically what it boils down to is this.

There are NOT 2 covenants. There is 1 Covenant. The New Covenant that the Lord Jesus Christ has instituted. If ANYONE wants to be a part of this 1 Covenant with God they MUST go through the Lord Jesus Christ.

All the promises of God belong to this 1 Covenant. NOT to ANY Covenants before this New Covenant instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The previous Covenant was broken by the Hebrew people. They were given the New Covenant but they apparently didn't want it. So it was given to the rest of the world.

Galatians 3:16-18
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Grandpa · Sep 2, 2019

Whispered said:

Starting in 150 AD. That isn't the first of Christian worship however. Furthermore, just because a people altered the Sabbath day does not mean it usurps the authority of scripture in that matter.

“On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read. … Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead” (Justin Martyr, First Apology, 67; ANF 1:186).

Furthermore, Sunday is not the day of our Lord's resurrection. The Bible does not say that.
The Book of Matthew chapter 28 verses 1-6
The Resurrection of Jesus
After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And suddenly there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, descending from heaven, came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 For fear of him the guards shook and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he[a] lay.

Nobody altered the sabbath day. The sabbath day is not able to be altered. Its in the law. 7th day. Saturday.

What was altered is the day that Christians come together and worship and preach. That was Sunday. The day the Lord Resurrected.

And because Constantine was a Christian he made it a law that everyone would rest on that day.

Its not really hard to follow this.

posthuman · Sep 2, 2019

Whispered said:

this isn't changing a day of worship to Sunday. there are extant records of early church fathers as early as 74 AD talking about how they congregate and clebrate on what they call equivalently 'the eighth day' and 'the Lord's day' because it is the day of the week that Christ was raised. Christians were already meeting on Sundays.

posthuman · Sep 2, 2019

Whispered said:

it may be somehow related to that, the fiercest persecution and the prevalent false teaching of the early church came from Judaism, both those who wished to destroy believers and those who wished to convert them to false beliefs. Paul does call them 'enemies for your sake regarding the gospel', Romans ((lol?)) 11:28
one can see how carnal minds could potentially twist that.

wokinluv · Sep 2, 2019

Was Paul leading the Gentiles to obey God when he wrote;

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7

...who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2Timothy 1:9-10

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. 1 Timothy 1:8-11

Or was he lying when he wrote this;

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— Romans 15:18

How can anyone claim or confess Jesus as their Lord yet disobey His commands to obey the commandments of God?
If Jesus reigns in our hearts, is He telling us to disobey His Father's commandments?

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:17

For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:47-50

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

God is good and His mercy endures forever. Amen

Lightskin said:

SimpleGardner · Sep 2, 2019

Grandpa said:

There is a violation either way.

The Sabbath Commandment is TWO FOLD:

Exo 34:21 NIV "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

It would be an error not to recognize the two aspects to this commandment.

Know and Keep Jn 14:21

Lightskin · Sep 3, 2019

wokinluv said:

Was Paul leading the Gentiles to obey God when he wrote;

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7

...who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2Timothy 1:9-10

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. 1 Timothy 1:8-11

Or was he lying when he wrote this;

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— Romans 15:18

How can anyone claim or confess Jesus as their Lord yet disobey His commands to obey the commandments of God?
If Jesus reigns in our hearts, is He telling us to disobey His Father's commandments?

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:17

For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:47-50

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

God is good and His mercy endures forever. Amen

I don’t read such long posts.

DeighAnn · Sep 3, 2019

Not think that I have come to abolish
abolish Strongs # 2647, to destroy, overthrow, I loosen thoroughly, I unyoke, unharness, to render vain, to deprive of success, to bring to naught, to deprived of force, annul, abrogate, discard (from kata and luo)
the law or the prophets not I have come to abolish #2647 but to fulfill
fulfill Strongs #4137 to make full, to complete, I full, fulfill, complete

Think not that I have come to discard the law or the prophets, I have not come to discard, but to make full.
Truly for I say to you until shall pass away the heavens and the earth iota one or one stroke of a letter no not shall pass away from the law until everything should happen #1096
Has everything happened? Nope

Think not that I have come to destroy
Think not that I have come to unyoke
Think not that I have come to overthrow
Think not that I have come to deprive of success,
Think not that I have come to bring to naught,
Think not that I have come to deprive of force
Think not that I have come to annul
Think not that I have come to abrogate
Think not that I have come to unharness

I have not come to destroy
I have not come to unyoke
I have not come to overthrow
I have not come to deprive of success
I have not come to bring to naught
I have not come to deprive of force
I have not come to annul
I have not come to abrogate
I have not come to discard

I have come to make full
I have come to complete
I have come to fulfill

Jesus telling us He is not here to abolish, and He will himself fulfill it. I do not read Jesus telling us that by Him completing or fulfilling it, in anyway changes my path.

Whoever if then shall break one of the commandments of these the least and shall teach so the others, least, he will be called in the kingdom of the heavens, whoever now shall keep and teach them, this one, great, will be called in the kingdom of the heavens

I myself would prefer not to be called least in the kingdom of heaven

I say for to you that if not shall abound your righteousness above that of the scribes and Pharisees no not shall you enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

And how shall my righteousness abound above the scribes and Pharisees? I myself, give thanks to the Lord God for the gifts of grace and faith through and in the Word, and the gift of the spirit that leads and guides me in the New Covenant, brought through the voluntary work of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I do my best, not to break the least of the commandments and teach (as much as is allowed by those who vehemently oppose it here) the same. I claim the promises of God and through Jesus will enter the kingdom of God.

PS · Sep 3, 2019

DeighAnn said:

It is important to notice that Jesus did not say that the law would never pass away. He said it would not pass away till all was fulfilled. This distinction has ramifications for the believer today, and since the believer's relation to the law is rather complicated, we are going to take time to summarize the Bible's teaching on this subject.

EXCURSUS ON THE BELIEVER'S RELATION TO THE LAW
The law is that system of legislation given by God through Moses to the nation of Israel. The entire body of the law is found in Exodus 20-31, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, though its essence is embodied in the Ten Commandments.

The law was not given as a means of salvation (Act_13:39; Rom_3:20 a; Gal_2:16, Gal_2:21; Gal_3:11; it was designed to show people their sinfulness (Rom_3:20 b; Rom_5:20; Rom_7:7; 1Co_15:56; Gal_3:19) and then drive them to God for His gracious salvation. It was given to the nation of Israel, even though it contains moral principles which are valid for people in every age (Rom_2:14-15). God tested Israel under the law as a sample of the human race, and Israel's guilt proved the world's guilt (Rom_3:19).

The law had attached to it the penalty of death (Gal_3:10); and to break one command was to be guilty of all (Jas_2:10). Since people had broken the law, they were under the curse of death. God's righteousness and holiness demanded that the penalty be paid. It was for this reason that Jesus came into the world: to pay the penalty by His death. He died as a Substitute for guilty lawbreakers, even though He Himself was sinless. He did not wave the law aside; rather He met the full demands of the law by fulfilling its strict requirements in His life and in His death. Thus, the gospel does not overthrow the law; it upholds the law and shows how the law's demands have been fully satisfied by Christ's redemptive work.

Therefore, the person who trusts in Jesus is no longer under the law; he is under grace (Rom_6:14). He is dead to the law through the work of Christ. The penalty of the law must be paid only once; since Christ paid the penalty, the believer does not have to. It is in this sense that the law has faded away for the Christian (2Co_3:7-11). The law was a tutor until Christ came, but after salvation, this tutor is no longer needed (Gal_3:24-25).

Yet, while the Christian is not under the law, that doesn't mean he is lawless. He is bound by a stronger chain than law because he is under the law of Christ (1Co_9:21). His behavior is molded, not by fear of punishment, but by a loving desire to please his Savior. Christ has become his rule of life (Joh_13:15; Joh_15:12; Eph_5:1-2; 1Jn_2:6; 1Jn_3:16).

A common question in a discussion of the believer's relation to the law is, “Should I obey the Ten Commandments?” The answer is that certain principles contained in the law are of lasting relevance. It is always wrong to steal, to covet, or to murder. Nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the NT, with an important distinction—they are not given as law (with penalty attached), but as training in righteousness for the people of God (2Ti_3:16 b). The one commandment not repeated is the Sabbath law: Christians are never taught to keep the Sabbath (i.e., the seventh day of the week, Saturday).

The ministry of the law to unsaved people has not ended: “But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully” (1Ti_1:8). Its lawful use is to produce the knowledge of sin and thus lead to repentance. But the law is not for those who are already saved: “The law is not made for a righteous person” (1Ti_1:9).

The righteousness demanded by the law is fulfilled in those “who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” (Rom_8:4). In fact, the teachings of our Lord in the Sermon on the Mount set a higher standard than that set by the law. For instance, the law said, “Do not murder”; Jesus said, “Do not even hate.” So the Sermon on the Mount not only upholds the Law and the Prophets but it amplifies them and develops their deeper implications.

5:19 In returning to the Sermon, we notice that Jesus anticipated a natural tendency to relax God's commandments. Because they are of such a supernatural nature, people tend to explain them away, to rationalize their meaning. But whoever breaks one part of the law, and teaches other people to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. The wonder is that such people are permitted in the kingdom at all—but then, entrance into the kingdom is by faith in Christ. A person's position in the kingdom is determined by his obedience and faithfulness while on earth. The person who obeys the law of the kingdom—that person shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(Believers Bible)

posthuman · Sep 3, 2019

Whispered said:

if Constantine was making sunday a sabbath then he wouldn't have stipulated that people outside of cities could go on doing whatever daily work they needed to do.

Whispered said:

if this was a sabbath being declared, it would be unlawful for farmers to work.

Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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