Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Dan_473]

I know none of these were to me but I gotta know, "attempt to physically perform" what does that mean?

Well, maybe I can show by example

Deuteronomy 22: 9. You shall not sow your vineyard with two kinds of seed, lest the whole fruit be forfeited, the seed which you have sown, and the increase of the vineyard.

One person will read that, and decide that it is talking about not being mixed together with unbelievers, not being unequally yoked I think the King James phrasing is. So they are keeping this law spiritually, or they are seeing it as some kind of metaphor or allegory or something. But the seeds that they actually put in the dirt in their small backyard garden where they grow grapes, they put in several varieties of seed.

Another person reads this, and will put only one species of seed into the dirt in their backyard vineyard. So, physical seeds, not metaphorical seeds as in the parable of the sower.

It's the second person, the one who is dealing with physical seeds, that I would say is keeping the law physically.

 

[Eli12]

Jesus died for us because we were guilty, and the letter of the law brought us under condemnation which was the curse of the law. And like the law showed. The only way atonement could be accomplished was through the shedding of blood.

If God did not take care of the condemnation issue, or the curse of the law. We would have no hope of salvation. And have no possibility of restoring our relationship with God or get to heaven, we would all be doomed to hell. When we realise this fact. We are free not only to come to God in faith. But be used by God. Because pride is removed, and we can stop trying to perform and just allow God to mld us into th epeople he wants us to be..

Then and ONLY then will change occurs, will works (true living works) which produce fruit come forth.

Until then all we have are works of self righteousness, which may cause us to be proud, but produce no fruit. Only pain and suffering (when God says depart form I never knew you)

.

Matt 7:21-23 is interpreted the wrong way by some. They say those "christians" were having "works" or getting proud of certain "works" they did. That is not the case. Jesus called them "workers of lawlessness" and that means what it means. Maybe they were doing certain "works" ... but not precisely the works they were supposed to do.

"prophesying in his name, and expeling demons in his name, and performing many powerful works his name" ... From what Jesus tells them those were not the works that were expected of them, but others, which they were obviously not doing, and that is the reason why he calls them the way he does.

 

[Grandpa]

So, in Ezekiel 36:27 do you see the action "ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." as something that takes place without any choice of ours? In other words, we couldn't act contrary to Gods will even if we tried?

I go along with the "New Creation" being godly, but do you see "the old man/the carnal man" as having no possibility of rising up and bearing fruit to unrighteousness?

If so, then since both are within the same man, cannot that "man" sin?

Isn't the mind-set a funny thing? You can tell a persons mind-set by the way they frame a question. You can't just choose to fly today by flapping your arms. You can't choose to be invisible by your own desire.

A person can act contrary to Gods will whenever they do ANYTHING carnally, by their own will and strength and understanding. Its not always contrary to Gods Will but it can be.

The ONLY time a person Keeps Gods Judgements and does them is when they abide in Christ and are CAUSED by those fruits of the Spirit to Keep them and do them.

The Lord says that in John 15:5... He says it pretty simply. Did you not understand His Word?

 

[Grandpa]

The ignore the requirements of the law. Just like the pharisee did.

Its why they rejected grace. And why these people reject grace..

When you think your ok. You do not need grace.

I don't think they know what they are doing.

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Matt 7:21-23 is interpreted the wrong way by some. They say those "christians" were having "works" or getting proud of certain "works" they did. That is not the case. Jesus called them "workers of lawlessness" and that means what it means. Maybe they were doing certain "works" ... but not precisely the works they were supposed to do.

"prophesying in his name, and expeling demons in his name, and performing many powerful works his name" ... From what Jesus tells them those were not the works that were expected of them, but others, which they were obviously not doing, and that is the reason why he calls them the way he does.

Matt is stating a fact.

Many people when they stand in front of God are expecting that all their works will be the reason God will let them in.

Jesus puts an end to that thinking right then, by saying he never knew them

A person who is not saved, who is not a true believer, may do all these wonderful works. They may even be morally upright people according to the world. Call themselves Christian. Go to church all the time, etc etc.

The reality is they practice lawlessness.

This issue people have is they fail to realize the true definition of sin, they look to the letter and think they are ok because they do not commit certain sins. When the reality of the fact. As a non believer or believer who has not yet come to true faith, all they can PRODUCE is lawlessness.

Thats the danger of trying to follow the law. You think you are ok when in reality you are not.

 

[Eli12]

Isn't the mind-set a funny thing? You can tell a persons mind-set by the way they frame a question. You can't just choose to fly today by flapping your arms. You can't choose to be invisible by your own desire.

A person can act contrary to Gods will whenever they do ANYTHING carnally, by their own will and strength and understanding. Its not always contrary to Gods Will but it can be.

The ONLY time a person Keeps Gods Judgements and does them is when they abide in Christ and are CAUSED by those fruits of the Spirit to Keep them and do them.

The Lord says that in John 15:5... He says it pretty simply. Did you not understand His Word?

You are trying to say that no person can do good works by himself. I don't think so. Their works may not save them cause everyone is "sinner" no matter how many good works he does ... but that does not mean that people can not do good works by themselves. Maybe this passage can help you to understand my point:

Rom 2:12 For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think they know what they are doing.

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

I would agree,, As paul said,

1 Timothy 1:7
desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor thethings which they affirm.

 

[Grandpa]

If you look at the "traditions of men" Jesus referred to;

Mar 7:11-13 KJV But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. (12) And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; (13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

This tradition Jesus is referring to is the Talmud.

Even Paul spoke of being faithful to these "Traditions" which Jesus condemned;

Gal 1:13-14 KJV For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: (14) And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

It was not the Torah that gave Saul and the High Priest justification for his criminal actions, it was the Talmud! In many cases Paul refers to the traditions of men as The Laws of the "Jews Religion" which they brought back from Babylon! This Law/The Talmud was criminal, and is often times the "yoke/burden" that Peter spoke of. Not the Torah. In many ways Jesus came to liberate His people from these criminal laws and restore the Laws of Love, which is the Torah! Look up the Talmud if you wish to see how vile they are! This is a Link to some of them

That's your own imagination coming up with excuses for you to work at the law in your own will and strength instead of coming to Christ and receiving rest.

How do I know that? Because I know that you know scripture.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Was this in reference to the Talmud? No. None of those references that you just referenced were to the Talmud. They were to the Law of Moses.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

No Christian would EVER be in danger of going to the Talmud to try and do what the Talmud says. But it would be pretty easy to convince a Christian who didn't know any better that they should go back to the Torah and do what it says. For Holiness or obedience or whatever excuses the legalist tries to come up with. I've lost track of them all.

It took Peter and Paul and the other disciples a lot of arguing to convince Christians that they weren't under the law of Moses.

I don't think anyone needs any convincing that they aren't under the Talmud.

 

[Eli12]

Matt is stating a fact.

Many people when they stand in front of God are expecting that all their works will be the reason God will let them in.

Jesus puts an end to that thinking right then, by saying he never knew them

A person who is not saved, who is not a true believer, may do all these wonderful works. They may even be morally upright people according to the world. Call themselves Christian. Go to church all the time, etc etc.

The reality is they practice lawlessness.

This issue people have is they fail to realize the true definition of sin, they look to the letter and think they are ok because they do not commit certain sins. When the reality of the fact. As a non believer or believer who has not yet come to true faith, all they can PRODUCE is lawlessness.

Thats the danger of trying to follow the law. You think you are ok when in reality you are not.

It is not about trying to follow "the law". The law is good because it shows what is wrong or right and that's it. Now we don't need the law just to know what is everything about, like Paul said:

Rom 7:7 What, then, shall we say? Is the Law sin? Never may that become so! Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet.” 8 But sin, receiving an inducement through the commandment, worked out in me covetousness of every sort, for apart from law sin was dead. 9 In fact, I was once alive apart from law; but when the commandment arrived, sin came to life again, but I died. 10 And the commandment which was to life, this I found to be to death. 11 For sin, receiving an inducement through the commandment, seduced me and killed me through it. 12 Wherefore, on its part, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

When we study the Bible we come to know what is wrong and what is right. That knowledge goes to our heart and we try to tune our thoughts and actions with that knowledge. Some people get it easier, some not that easy ... but we need to get more and more knowledge that can make us go in the right direction. It is not about us trying to buy our salvation, it is about us trying to do what is good from God's point of view and stop doing what is wrong in that same sense.

 

[Grandpa]

You are trying to say that no person can do good works by himself. I don't think so. Their works may not save them cause everyone is "sinner" no matter how many good works he does ... but that does not mean that people can not do good works by themselves. Maybe this passage can help you to understand my point:

Rom 2:12 For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.

The Lord Jesus says that in John 15:5... Surely you believe Him?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[DeighAnn]

I did not write this for "biblical" accuracy, which I am qualifying for those who "don't whatever the law" because if you make a mistake in presentation they jump all over you to make it right, but the ones who do follow the law would never say something it is just, so backwards. Anyways,

Some times when I get down on my knees and pray and I am repenting,

I do bring to mind the "laws", though none specifically, that went with the day of atonement. All the people involved, the rituals, how close you and everyone else was to God on that very day and what God was trying to teach us.
I think how my best and most loved and most precious animal was to be sacrificed for my sins. Break one, break them all. There wasn't no one going to say "no" on that day.

I think God was figuring out a way to just shake us and say "LOOK, it isn't that hard, acknowledge the love and the gifts you been given, acknowledge being good is and getting better is important to you. Love each other, like you had to spend eternity together and learn how to do it in peace. Choose life".

God does not demand perfection, just following and atoning for failure and its recognition.
Eve

The problem is sensitivity has gone, almost totally, and knowing the precious life of those
that are in our hands. It is why the people of God listen, wait, learn, are patient, kind, considerate
and want to know how they can help and where. It is the trait of all who I empathise with and
their hearts intention. It is this that I sincerely thank the Lord for and know His will and ways
are truly good and gracious, no matter how much the enemy hates them, nothing can touch His
elect, Amen.

The term "wrangling" = engagement in a long, complicated dispute or arguments REALLY opened my eyes. I did that tiny study on Fruits of the Spirit and works of the flesh, it fell under one of the "works of the flesh".

I have since tried to limit my self to 3, when I discern it will not be productive, but have a new attitude, "I am not responding at all to the comments clearly made by someone not spirit led", well, maybe but a few, but I am at aware it is of the flesh and as such must be guarded against.

I thank you very much for the support you have shown when I am being attacked. I do love those moods you get into that are "to rebuke" but are done in the most spiritual way, with words of the Lord, given in love. I would like to remind you, no me, because I know the people who visit this site and never read or write or give a "high 5" are probably more important than the ones who do. I know those are the pages that make a big deal to someone searching for the truth and also a great example of how to use the love of God even then the evil of this world and all its buds are coming at us.

I don't think I have seen you "flesh" talk but a couple times and that is the most beautiful thing at all. Keep that going. The good are watching.....

 

[Eli12]

Maybe it is not me who does not believe in Jesus:

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. 2 He takes away every branch in me not bearing fruit, and he cleans every one bearing fruit, so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in union with me, and I will remain in union with you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you unless you remain in union with me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever remains in union with me and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing at all. 6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is thrown out like a branch and dries up. And men gather those branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in union with me and my sayings remain in you, ask whatever you wish and it will take place for you. 8 My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.

Why is a branch cut?

 

[Grandpa]

Matt is stating a fact.

Many people when they stand in front of God are expecting that all their works will be the reason God will let them in.

Jesus puts an end to that thinking right then, by saying he never knew them

A person who is not saved, who is not a true believer, may do all these wonderful works. They may even be morally upright people according to the world. Call themselves Christian. Go to church all the time, etc etc.

The reality is they practice lawlessness.

This issue people have is they fail to realize the true definition of sin, they look to the letter and think they are ok because they do not commit certain sins. When the reality of the fact. As a non believer or believer who has not yet come to true faith, all they can PRODUCE is lawlessness.

Thats the danger of trying to follow the law. You think you are ok when in reality you are not.

I've tried to use scripture to show this.

I've tried explaining in my own words.

I've tried explaining in other theologians words.

I've tried to explain with hymns and songs.


After awhile it just gets old trying to explain the same things over and over to people who can't understand.

 

[Grandpa]

Maybe it is not me who does not believe in Jesus:

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. 2 He takes away every branch in me not bearing fruit, and he cleans every one bearing fruit, so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in union with me, and I will remain in union with you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you unless you remain in union with me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever remains in union with me and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing at all. 6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is thrown out like a branch and dries up. And men gather those branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in union with me and my sayings remain in you, ask whatever you wish and it will take place for you. 8 My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.

Why is a branch cut?

For not bearing fruit or so you can bear more fruit.

Do you think you muster the fruit up by your work at the law?

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[Eli12]

I already talked about that ... I think I'd been doing that in all my posts about this matter.
Have you read my comments in their entirety?
I don't like to be responding to questions and accusations that have no basis.

 

[Magenta]

I've tried to use scripture to show this.

I've tried explaining in my own words.

I've tried explaining in other theologians words.

I've tried to explain with hymns and songs.


After awhile it just gets old trying to explain the same things over and over to people who can't understand.

 

[SimpleGardner]

It is not about trying to follow "the law". The law is good because it shows what is wrong or right and that's it. Now we don't need the law just to know what is everything about, like Paul said:

Rom 7:7 What, then, shall we say? Is the Law sin? Never may that become so! Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet.” 8 But sin, receiving an inducement through the commandment, worked out in me covetousness of every sort, for apart from law sin was dead. 9 In fact, I was once alive apart from law; but when the commandment arrived, sin came to life again, but I died. 10 And the commandment which was to life, this I found to be to death. 11 For sin, receiving an inducement through the commandment, seduced me and killed me through it. 12 Wherefore, on its part, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

When we study the Bible we come to know what is wrong and what is right. That knowledge goes to our heart and we try to tune our thoughts and actions with that knowledge. Some people get it easier, some not that easy ... but we need to get more and more knowledge that can make us go in the right direction. It is not about us trying to buy our salvation, it is about us trying to do what is good from God's point of view and stop doing what is wrong in that same sense.

Greetings Eli12,

There is without argument on both sides of this discussion a disconnect. I understand their argument completely. Do I agree with all of it? Not based on many of their comments. Too many times they make any admiration and recognition of the virtues of the Torah as led by the Holy Spirit seem heretical. That I cannot recognize.

We do know as Peter warns;

2Pe 3:15-17 NIV Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. (16) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

I find that most new Believers left to the teaching of the Holy Spirit through the scriptures naturally demonstrate their Faith through obedience. It is a perversion of the scriptures to convince men to disregard the will of God in the OT that the Holy Spirit guides them into. Naturally, as a young Christian the "milk" of the Word is appropriate, but the Holy Spirit will lead men to seek out the truths and will of God throughout the entire Scriptures and many "extra biblical" texts once they are tuned to the delicate guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SimpleGardner]

I already talked about that ... I think I'd been doing that in all my posts about this matter.
Have you read my comments in their entirety?
I don't like to be responding to questions and accusations that have no basis.

It is another witness to what spirit is at work when you are taken out of context and in many cased deliberately misquoted.

I have said before that there is something very sinister at work when these things happen over and over.

 

[SimpleGardner]

(note to all, some of the words in the quote box attributed to me in post 3,333 are actually the words of SimpleGardner.)


I agree that we are to offer ourselves as living sacrifices. Does this mean, in your view, that we are free to break the commandment about how and where a grain offering is to be burnt? are we free to break all of The commandments that relate to the temple or the tent of meeting?

Hey Dan_473, Yes, I don't know how I did that and tried to fix it. Next time I will write a note following it up right away. My sincere apologies it was an unintentional act.

SG

 

[Eli12]

Maybe it is a question of "words" ... They want to call them "fruits" ... fruits are works. They want to think they are automatic ... automatic in the sense that the person is being learning from the law and is trying to do what is right, maybe that way is automatic; when we have been learning and hearing all the time that lying is wrong, at the moment we're going to tell a lie we remember (and what we remember? ... we remeber what is written about lying) , maybe we stop and don't lie, maybe we do it, but we know it was wrong ... there we go, to "cry" for what we did ... Maybe the next time our concience speaks louder and we don't do it. Maybe the next time become automatic ... yes, automatic, but that was not without effort.

... and maybe it happens the same thing with other debates. We all must try to not forget that we must relate to each other with love , cause we all are fighting to do what is right, to tune our thoughts on what is true ...