Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

It all happens the same time the moment you hear the Gospel.

Tell me something. do you believe the Reformed doctrine over what Jesus, John, Peter, and Paul said?

Why do you ask such a silly question? Have I quoted extra-biblical Reformed sources to make my case?

And you need to make your biblical case that "it all happens the same time the moment you hear the gospel". If you can't make your case from the bible, then that is your personal assumption.

 

[jamessb]

You haven't proved anything. I don't see in the above passage where it says God sent his Son into the world to die for each and every person. You, sir, are reading that into the text. You're assuming that the term "world" is used in the universal sense, correct? Well, then let's run with that assumption for a moment. How would you reconcile Jn 3:16 which you think is saying that God loves each and every person in the world with numerous other passages that teach just the opposite, i.e. God hates sinners!? If your interpretation is correct, then we have more than a few contradictions in scripture.

Also, the offer and the extent of atonement are two separate issues; for many are externally called (made the offer) but few are chosen (Mat 22:14). It is eminently more logical that Christ died for the few who where known by the Father and chosen by Him in eternity, and not for all who were merely externally called who he knew in eternity would never accept his offer. Why would Christ die for those he NEVER KNEW in eternity (Mat 7:23)? This is patently absurd.

And I have not missed the supernatural, salvific, effectual power of God -- because without this kind of power no one could be saved. It is the Arminian camp that diminishes that power and makes God's will contingent on his creatures' wills, and makes the creature more powerful than the Creator since he's able to overcome God's resurrection power. In the Arminian scheme the creature is sovereign and more powerful than God.

Further in Arminianism the Christian believer most certainly has something to boast in, doesn't he? After all, what makes the Arminian believer different than his unbelieving counterpart? The believer's superior will power? The believer's superior intellect? The believer's superior wisdom? Of what do you boast in, sir? It can't be in God or the Cross or Christ because the Arminian believes that our eternal fate, our eternal destiny rests utlimtately in our own choices, correct? God sends no one to hell; unbelievers send themselves! AND God forces no one to believe the Gospel, so all Arminian believers had to FREELY make that decision for themselves, right? The Arminians certainly have much boast in, don't they?

It's simply your opinion that I haven't proved anything. If you don't understand that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Himself God) doesn't apply to everyone, there is nothing I can say to convince you.

BTW, why do you think that Scripture contradicts itself? Is God confused, according to you?

Do you really believe that the sacrifice of God's Son, who is God Himself, is only partially effective??? That is
is patently absurd.

 

[jamessb]

As stated yesterday, I would repost my New Birth Analogy here that I posted on another thread. However, I did revise it some by including more scripture references than previously, and I edited out my specif reply to a poster on that thread.


As stated yesterday, there is a strong analogy between physical and spiritual birth. Please note these parallels:

1. Just as physical birth requires two people of the opposite sex to procreate, likewise scripture teaches that God's elect are born of the Spirit and the Word (Jn 1:13; 3:5-6; 6:63; Tit 3:5; 1Jn 3:9; 4:7; Eph 5:26-27; 1Pet 1:22-25).

2. The source of all Wisdom is God. The three persons of the Godhead are always spoken of in the masculine gender. And God's Wisdom is revealed to the world in his Word, and Wisdom itself is spoken of in the feminine gender (Prov 1:20-21); also the noun "truth" itself is in the same gender.

3. Just as a man and a woman are different from each other physically, likewise so the Spirit and the Word differ. The Holy Spirit is a living personality graciously bestowed upon God's elect and subjectively experienced by all believers in time and space (Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; Jn 16:8-11), whereas [Gospel] Truth is objectively revealed to all in the holy scriptures but only received by those who have been made alive by the Spirit.

4. In John 3, The Holy Spirit is likened to the wind by Jesus, as He mysteriously and secretly goes hither and tither as he sovereignly wills. Conversely, God's objective Truth is either sought out by the sons of men as the Spirit leads them, or by us "pillars of the truth" as we seek out unbelievers, as He leads us, so that we can reveal Gospel Truth to them.

5. Physical life begins at conception, concealed in the woman's womb -- that life not being revealed to the world until many months later when actual birth takes place. Likewise, everyone us, whether we realize it or not, have had our own personal "on the road to Damascus" conversion experience, whether that experience was so subtle and nuanced that it went undetected (or virtually so) by us, or whether we had a more dramatic experience along the lines of the apostle Paul whereby we were more acutely aware of our conversion. Who can say that a believer cannot be conceived of the Spirit some time before he came to faith, and that the Spirit wasn't "concealed" in us until such time that we manifested our spiritual birth to the world by our confession of sin to God and confession of faith to the Gospel truth to the world? Many of us could have been spiritually alive as concealed "embryos" up until the time of our profession of faith in the Truth, at which time our spiritual birth was initially revealed to the outside world, as well as to ourselves. We very likely moved spiritually from the stage of "embryo" to "fetus" to a "babe in Christ" to maturity -- keeping mind that even at the initial stage we were made alive! Spiritual Life begins at conception, just as it does physically! The New Birth, on the other hand, is the ultimate manifestation of that Life to the world as our testimony to God's grace.

Finally, in regard to this analogy, I think Cornelius in Acts 10 makes for a highly interesting and intriguing case study that raises more than a few questions.

This has the feeling of plagiarism. What is the source?

 

[jamessb]

But it does not follow logically that Christ died for every man on the planet, including the vast majority who never come to Christ.

If I offer you an invitation and you don't show up, that doesn't invalidate the invitation.

 

[jamessb]

But universal terms are quite often USED in speech in a limited sense. We must determine their usage by the three-fold context of scripture: Immediate, Intermediate (the book in which any given passage is found) and the Macro (any other book outside the passage under consideration).

I take it that you believe that Jn 3:16 is teaching that God loves each and every person in the world?

John 3:16, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

How can this be interpreted any differently than what it clearly states? Who is excluded from "the world"?

 

[jamessb]

I agree God loves the "world" -- just not every single person in it; for numerous scriptures teach that this same God also hates sinners. And sinners, too, are part of the world, are they not? How are you going to reconcile your interpretation with this fact?

Also, you have to understand how the original audience of John's would have understood "world". John was writing primarily to Jews, so how would have the Jews of the first century understood the term "world"? Do you know? I do.

Are you serious? Which people, in your opinion, are not included in "the world"? Do you think that there are aliens among us?

 

[Rufus]

It's simply your opinion that I haven't proved anything. If you don't understand that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Himself God) doesn't apply to everyone, there is nothing I can say to convince you.

BTW, why do you think that Scripture contradicts itself? Is God confused, according to you?

Do you really believe that the sacrifice of God's Son, who is God Himself, is only partially effective??? That is
is patently absurd.

Well then, your own bolded words above condemn you for doublespeak! You truly want the Atonement both ways, don't you!? Christ died for all; yet at the same time his atonement doesn't apply to all. So just what was Jesus' point for dying for all since his death on the cross was not effectual for all?

And, no, God is not confused. But you are. You are, evidently, oblivious to the fact that numerous words in scripture are USED in multiple ways. Do you doubt this?

And to answer your last question, scripture teaches his atonement is totally, 100% effective for all the elect for whom he specifically died -- for all God chose in eternity to be his people. Eminently logical. And no doublespeak involved!

 

[Rufus]

Are you serious? Which people, in your opinion, are not included in "the world"? Do you think that there are aliens among us?

No, but plenty of sinners who God hates. How's that for starters? And do you doubt this truth, as well?

 

[jamessb]

Well then, your own bolded words above condemn you for doublespeak! You truly want the Atonement both ways, don't you!? Christ died for all; yet at the same time his atonement doesn't apply to all.

And, no, God is not confused. But you are. You are, evidently, oblivious to the fact that numerous words in scripture are USED in multiple ways. Do you doubt this?

And to answer your last question, scripture teaches his atonement is totally, 100% effective for all the elect for whom he specifically died -- for all God chose in eternity to be his people. Eminently logical. And no doublespeak involved!

If you don't understand salvation, that is NOT my problem.

 

[jamessb]

No, but plenty of sinners who God hates. How's that for starters? And do you doubt this truth, as well?

So when John wrote that God loves the world, he was mistaken and you are not? Seriously? You have a real problem!

 

[Rufus]

If you don't understand salvation, that is NOT my problem.

I agree. I'm not the problem. You are, but you cannot see it. Why didn't you answer my question about word usage? Do you doubt that many words have multiple uses in scripture?

 

[Rufus]

So when John wrote that God loves the world, he was mistaken and you are not? Seriously? You have a real problem!

No, you are mistaken. How many times do you need to be told this? God cannot possibly love each and every person in the the world, while at the same time he hates the sinners of the world. Do you doubt that God hates sinners?

 

[selahsays]

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

- John 6:44-45,47

There is life eternal for every man that comes to Christ.

[/QUOTE]
Glad you agree with me.

 

[jamessb]

I agree. I'm not the problem. You are, but you cannot see it. Why didn't you answer my question about word usage? Do you doubt that many words have multiple uses in scripture?

Do you actually think that I will engage with you when you insult me?

I do not have to answer your questions! If they are of value and deserve a response, fine. But that isn't the case with your posts.

 

[jamessb]

No, you are mistaken. How many times do you need to be told this? God cannot possibly love each and every person in the the world, while at the same time he hates the sinners of the world. Do you doubt that God hates sinners?

Is there something that you don't understand about John 3:16? Are you that blind?

"For God SO LOVED THE WORLD... That's what it says. I believe God's written word, not your opinion. If you can't figure it out, that is not my problem; it's yours.

 

[jamessb]

No, you are mistaken. How many times do you need to be told this? God cannot possibly love each and every person in the the world, while at the same time he hates the sinners of the world. Do you doubt that God hates sinners?

I am putting you on "ignore", as I have no desire to discuss anything with you. You are deceived!!!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated. Faith is fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Show me in the verse about NOT BEING TO HEAR?

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I want any Reformed doctrine follower to show me where it says the Natural Man cannot HEAR

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
^
is people already converted who chose to ENTER

But show me where natural man cannot hear
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Rufus]

Is there something that you don't understand about John 3:16? Are you that blind?

"For God SO LOVED THE WORLD... That's what it says. I believe God's written word, not your opinion. If you can't figure it out, that is not my problem; it's yours.

Now who is insulting whom? God's written word isn't the problem. The problem is your interpretation of it. And you know this, otherwise you would have answered my question about God hating sinners. Since you didn't answer, then you obviously don't doubt God's written word on this truth, but you are very willing to live with the contradiction your interpretation of Jn 3:16 presents with respect to God hating sinners. How can God love and hate sinners at the same time? And how can any Christian just tacitly accept a contradiction (a lie) if God's love is within -- a love which can only rejoice with the truth (1Cor 13:6)? Quite an incongruity here to say the least.

And the above is just the beginning of your problems. I'm going to copy and paste a question that I asked another poster in my 1542 to which he offered no answer. Perhaps you'll fare better?

Now, I have a question for you: Don't you find it a wee bit odd that Christ in his high priestly prayer to his Father in John 17 explicitly omitted all the non-elect in his prayer (v.9)? Here he was -- just hours away from the Cross -- and supposedly he would have known that he's going to lay down his life for each and every person in this world, right? Yet in spite of this knowledge, he purposely omits the world that he allegedly died for from his prayer. Why? Why would he do that? Do you have an intelligent, coherent answer for this perplexing inconsistency with non-Calvinistic views?

And just for your info, there is a second problem with the Jn 17:9 text that actually supports my contention that universal terms (so-called) are indeed frequently employed in a restrictive sense. But I won't pile on. I strongly suspect you won't address either of the two questions at hand. So, why present a third sticky problem? I'm gracious that way.