Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

Wrong is wrong regardless of the explanation. Just like you believing a person can be saved apart from the gospel and apart from Christ. Or making disparaging remarks about people you have never met or had any contact with.
For all your bluster about others employing systematic theology, you have your own systematic theology by which you determine meaning.

Sure, that's what everyone who believes in human choice believes.

You're loosing it Cameron. Just a heads up for you.

The Grace and Peace sign off is surely just ahead...

 

[Cameron143]

I know plenty of Christians that think differently and are still involved in and looking forward to their lives in Christ here. I know some who want to do everything they can in Christ in Spirit and be rewarded as He promises. I'm not sure how you think you qualify to say what every Christian should think or do.

Actually Paul clearly said he was hard-pressed - distressed / absorbed - to make the decision and his clear preference was to depart and be with Christ which he says is far better than staying here in flesh. You don't seem to care much about what the Text actually says.

In the end of these verses he made the decision that the Lord wanted him here to help others grow. But, again, this doesn't mean Paul wasn't opening his heart to his readers.

As was pointed out in the article I offered to you, this was not the only time Paul spoke of such things with some comparative language:

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.​

Your repeating "suicide" for some shock value doesn't negate the fact that these thoughts Paul expresses were obviously real and not a one time thing.

Nor does it negate anything Paul is explaining to us re: human choice, which is the real focus.

It is better to be with the Lord. That should be every Christian's desire. It is a far superior estate. But Paul left his life in God's hands.
Every prophet in the OT when depressed told God to take their lives. I'm sure Paul was aware of this. He never does this. In fact, when he prayed for a malady to be removed 3 times and God refused, he glorified in God's decision...when I am weak, He is strong. Tribulation was a cause for the Apostle to celebrate. After being beaten and thrown in prison, he is found having a prayer and praise session at midnight. You have Paul pegged all wrong.

 

[PaulThomson]

The truth is that God creates over ninety percent of people to reject Jesus.

More so, many of those people God predetermines to commit atrocious sin.

He then judges them for eternity for the sin of the rejection of Jesus and moral depravity.

A sovereign God is sovereign over all.

I think we rejoice.

Yikes! I hope you forgot the sarcasm emoji?

 

[Cameron143]

Maybe "written in your book" is a poetic metaphor for God recording in His memory what He is keenly observing happening in the womb.

But that's simply conjecture. Maybe it's alot of things.

 

[PaulThomson]

But that's simply conjecture. Maybe it's alot of things.

How much detail do you imagine is recorded in this "book"? If a record of all the things Jesus said and did in 33years would fill the whole world, who is writing all these books for every soul conceived, where would they be kept , and what would be the point of keeping all of these details recorded in books?

 

[Cameron143]

Tu quoque is another logical fallacy. Try dealing with THE TEXT AS WRITTEN.

Tu quoque is a type of ad hominem argument in which an accused person turns an allegation back on his or her accuser, thus creating a logical fallacy. In the English language, the phrase generally functions as a noun, however, it's also used attributively to modify other nouns, as in "a tu quoque argument."

All I was doing was showing where you were wrong in the past and have no credibility with me.

 

[PaulThomson]

What was the primary purpose of the law?

The purpose of the law is to shut the mouths of the self-righteous, who compare themselves with others and grant themselves a pass in goodness.

If you disagree, please enlighten us all.

 

[PaulThomson]

All I was doing was showing where you were wrong in the past and have no credibility with me.

I am interested in discussing what scriptures SAY, not in the credibility of the person expressing their opinions on what the scriptures SAY. I look at their present argumentation in their present post, not their good or appalling record.

 

[studier]

Do you know what it means to live, yet not I; Christ lives in me? That's not an individual trying to imitate Christ. It is literally Christ living in and through an individual. In Him we live and move and have our being.

It's interesting when we can see more and more how some ignore what Scripture says, insert their own thinking in it's place and walk away from explaining themselves. It's also quite the thing when some don't actually post Scripture but make partial statements from Scripture and leave off the rest in an effort to chide others who actually read and work in Scripture.

NKJ Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

• I don't like this translation but the parts I've highlighted are sufficient to make the point that this is in fact a Christian who is learning to live in Christ in Spirit and to do his part in the relationship we have with our Lord. There is an interplay of Him living in us and us living by His faith. Why people want to negate what the Text clearly says and use it wrongly and in part to chide others is really a problem.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. And NKJ Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.

• This actually is ultimately imitating Jesus Christ and our Father as His beloved children. And, actually, these are both commands made to the volition = choice of Christians.

Faith, choice, obedience sure sounds like our involvement in Christ in Spirit under grace to me.

What are you trying to sell us?

 

[Cameron143]

Can you negate what Paul clearly says? Wouldn't it be better to explain Scripture rather than pretend it's not there?

Didn't Paul ultimately do what I highlighted above and said before re: Jesus Christ? What I've highlighted speaks of a choice.

It looks to me like you're trying to deny human choice in submitting to God's will by showing us human choice submitting to God's will.

I've shown you that Paul would not choose to take his own life. So what he is saying that his preference is to depart and be with the Lord. But having a great love for those to whom God has placed in his care, and knowing it is better for them if he remains, he reassures them that he is confident he isn't going anywhere. It's not a difficult passage.
I have the same dilemma with my own children. For some time I have desired to be with the Lord. But it's better for my family to be here and continue to grow them in the faith and prepare and establish them in the occupation God has made them for. Easy peasy.

 

[Cameron143]

Sure, that's what everyone who believes in human choice believes.

You're loosing it Cameron. Just a heads up for you.

The Grace and Peace sign off is surely just ahead...

Hardly. You still have much to learn. I'll bear long with you.

 

[Cameron143]

It's interesting when we can see more and more how some ignore what Scripture says, insert their own thinking in it's place and walk away from explaining themselves. It's also quite the thing when some don't actually post Scripture but make partial statements from Scripture and leave off the rest in an effort to chide others who actually read and work in Scripture.

NKJ Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

• I don't like this translation but the parts I've highlighted are sufficient to make the point that this is in fact a Christian who is learning to live in Christ in Spirit and to do his part in the relationship we have with our Lord. There is an interplay of Him living in us and us living by His faith. Why people want to negate what the Text clearly says and use it wrongly and in part to chide others is really a problem.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. And NKJ Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.

• This actually is ultimately imitating Jesus Christ and our Father as His beloved children. And, actually, these are both commands made to the volition = choice of Christians.

Faith, choice, obedience sure sounds like our involvement in Christ in Spirit under grace to me.

What are you trying to sell us?

You cannot imitate Christ in your flesh. You may try to do the things He did outwardly, but you cannot do so inwardly apart from the operation of the Spirit. What would Jesus do is a flawed strategy. It just has a person performing outward acts void of the motivation from which Jesus did what He did. Following that principle might make you a whited sepulchre. But you will still be full of dead men's bones. It is impossible to live as Christ apart from Christ.

 

[studier]

It is better to be with the Lord. That should be every Christian's desire. It is a far superior estate. But Paul left his life in God's hands.
Every prophet in the OT when depressed told God to take their lives. I'm sure Paul was aware of this. He never does this. In fact, when he prayed for a malady to be removed 3 times and God refused, he glorified in God's decision...when I am weak, He is strong. Tribulation was a cause for the Apostle to celebrate. After being beaten and thrown in prison, he is found having a prayer and praise session at midnight. You have Paul pegged all wrong.

I simply started with some of Paul's writing re: a choice he clearly says he was struggling with. I'm not attempting to present an entire treatise on Paul.

Your assertion that I have him all wrong is empty. I put forth actual Scripture and offered a few thoughts on what he is saying including one about writing to a culture he grew up in and knew about and knew expertly how to get his points across to.

We may find what he says to make us uncomfortable, but what he says is clear and we have to deal with it honestly and realize that we are not his original audience whose language was very different than ours, whose culture was very different than ours and who would see and hear things very differently than we do.

Some of this was researched and presented in the article I offered you. Now you're sitting back being critical of things you likely have no understanding of at all. You're frankly not to be taken seriously.

Do you have anything to offer re: man's ability, process and responsibility to make choices?

 

[Cameron143]

I simply started with some of Paul's writing re: a choice he clearly says he was struggling with. I'm not attempting to present an entire treatise on Paul.

Your assertion that I have him all wrong is empty. I put forth actual Scripture and offered a few thoughts on what he is saying including one about writing to a culture he grew up in and knew about and knew expertly how to get his points across to.

We may find what he says to make us uncomfortable, but what he says is clear and we have to deal with it honestly and realize that we are not his original audience whose language was very different than ours, whose culture was very different than ours and who would see and hear things very differently than we do.

Some of this was researched and presented in the article I offered you. Now you're sitting back being critical of things you likely have no understanding of at all. You're frankly not to be taken seriously.

Do you have anything to offer re: man's ability, process and responsibility to make choices?

I go to the store with my daughter. I'm going to buy some candy. I prefer to get chocolate. She likes gummy bears. I would rather have chocolate. That's my preference. But it's better for her if I get gummy bears.
This is all the passage is teaching. It's not a proof text concerning choice. But it is consistent with what it means to love your neighbor as yourself and to prefer others before yourself. That is what Paul would have people imitate...not the particular action, but the motivation for the action.

 

[studier]

I've shown you that Paul would not choose to take his own life. So what he is saying that his preference is to depart and be with the Lord. But having a great love for those to whom God has placed in his care, and knowing it is better for them if he remains, he reassures them that he is confident he isn't going anywhere. It's not a difficult passage.
I have the same dilemma with my own children. For some time I have desired to be with the Lord. But it's better for my family to be here and continue to grow them in the faith and prepare and establish them in the occupation God has made them for. Easy peasy.

Funny assertion. The only thing you've shown me is quite a bit of opinion and error in and misuse of unreferenced and partial Scripture.

Once again, you argue against human choice to do God's will, by explaining how you make a choice to do God's will. This seems to me to clearly be your dilemma.

What is it that guides your choice? Nature, culture, conscience, general and/or special revelation, love? Whether you admit it or not you are making a choice to do what you're doing and there are multitudes of people choosing differently to show you they have the faculties and abilities and freedom to do just that.

 

[Cameron143]

Funny assertion. The only thing you've shown me is quite a bit of opinion and error in and misuse of unreferenced and partial Scripture.

Once again, you argue against human choice to do God's will, by explaining how you make a choice to do God's will. This seems to me to clearly be your dilemma.

What is it that guides your choice? Nature, culture, conscience, general and/or special revelation, love? Whether you admit it or not you are making a choice to do what you're doing and there are multitudes of people choosing differently to show you they have the faculties and abilities and freedom to do just that.

A person's nature guides their choices. For the lost, they are guided by their fallen nature. For the Christian who has a dual nature, the nature that is operating will guide choice. If you walk in the Spirit your choices will be guided by God. If you walk in the flesh, your fallen nature will guide your choices.

 

[studier]

You cannot imitate Christ in your flesh. You may try to do the things He did outwardly, but you cannot do so inwardly apart from the operation of the Spirit. What would Jesus do is a flawed strategy. It just has a person performing outward acts void of the motivation from which Jesus did what He did. Following that principle might make you a whited sepulchre. But you will still be full of dead men's bones. It is impossible to live as Christ apart from Christ.

Who said we could? Why do you make up these empty arguments? Whether you care or not, they make you seem strategically abusive or incapable of understanding what's put forth to you.

What was it you're misunderstanding here, the fact that those in Christ in Spirit are commanded to do things which is instruction and command directed at the will of God's children, and/or the associated fact that we participate with the Godhead in living the Christian Spiritual Life under God's Grace?

Like it or not but every command God issues to His children is directed at their volition aka will. I know from personal studies and work in Christ in Spirit that there are approximately 1,000 commands in the NC Scriptures. If I strip out then ones in narrative, as I recall there are still about 800. That's a lot of directive command pointed at the will of God's Children for you to be working so hard and unsuccessfully to negate.

 

[Cameron143]

Who said we could? Why do you make up these empty arguments? Whether you care or not, they make you seem strategically abusive or incapable of understanding what's put forth to you.

What was it you're misunderstanding here, the fact that those in Christ in Spirit are commanded to do things which is instruction and command directed at the will of God's children, and/or the associated fact that we participate with the Godhead in living the Christian Spiritual Life under God's Grace?

Like it or not but every command God issues to His children is directed at their volition aka will. I know from personal studies and work in Christ in Spirit that there are approximately 1,000 commands in the NC Scriptures. If I strip out then ones in narrative, as I recall there are still about 800. That's a lot of directive command pointed at the will of God's Children for you to be working so hard and unsuccessfully to negate.

The volition of a Christian should be...not my will, but Thine. And because that can only occur as one walks in the Spirit, that should be the Christian's choice.
We can make a choice to be concerned about what we eat and what we wear, or we can seek His kingdom and righteousness. The choice we make is determined by whether we are walking in the Spirit or the flesh. One's spiritual estate will always be reflected in the choice.

 

[TMS]

Free choice = free choice.

If we can not choose we can not love.

Selfishness vs love is a choice

We can follow Jesus or not follow Him.

Did eve have a choice. Is sinning a choice.??

Jesus asked the rich young ruler.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Jesus gave him a choice.
He was wrestling with himself. But chose to not follow Jesus.
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

It was possible to say and no.

 

[studier]

The volition of a Christian should be...not my will, but Thine. And because that can only occur as one walks in the Spirit, that should be the Christian's choice.
We can make a choice to be concerned about what we eat and what we wear, or we can seek His kingdom and righteousness. The choice we make is determined by whether we are walking in the Spirit or the flesh. One's spiritual estate will always be reflected in the choice.

So, if we're walking in Spirit we will or will not choose to obey God's command to imitate Him as His beloved Children?