Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

No. I choose to be led of the Spirit. Jesus did always what He saw the Father doing. Do you see the Father causing division? Do you see the Father implying false motives? Do you see the Father causing confusion?

Sometimes what someone says is exactly what they mean. I get that we have some different understanding of doctrine. I don't get why you think it's your responsibility to change another's point of view. Sure, plant and water, but leave the growing to God. When I see that what I'm sharing is making no impact, I know that it's time to move on. You are free to do as you choose.

The assumptions that only those who disagree with someone's viewpoint are the ones causing division is actually quite astounding.

 

[PaulThomson]

Cameron143 said:
But He sure did say some were given and some weren't. It's a principle. And I didn't say anything about eternity past.
And the passage doesn't say He explained the parable to the multitude. It was only explained to the disciples. To the multitude he said...who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I'm interested in knowing why did Jesus use such a phrase? Was He just saying pay attention? Or was He suggesting something like Luke 8:18...take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken...

I think He was saying, "He who has ears that have hearing, let him pay attention to what I am saying." AkuO" means both to ear and to listen attentively.

What do you think "8:18...take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken..." taken in context, means exactly?

You haven't yet explained Luke 8:18 means such that it dsiputes my explanation of Having ears to hear. Let me do it for you.

Parable of the sower, expounding on different quality hearers of the word, is followed by -

No man lights a candle and puts it under a bushel or hides it under his bed; but he puts it on a lampstand so that it might give light to the whole house.

Be careful how you hear. For to him who has, He will be given more; but from him who has not, even what he seems to have will taken away from him.

The man who puts his light under a bushel is the man hiding from others the light God has lighted him with. He is ashamed of the word, or fears the consequences of others knowing what he heard and believed. He is in danger of extinguishing the light he was imparted with.

The man who hides his light under a bed is the man who is hiding the light from himself so he can sleep comfortably and not feel convicted. He is in danger of rude awakening when he wakes to find his bed on fire, and he is burning with it.

The one who is not ashamed of the light he has received, the truth he has heard, but shares that light/truth with others, will be given more light. The one who hides the light from others or himself, his light will die out, or the house he has will be burned down.

That is its meaning of Luke 8:18 in context, I believe.

 

[PaulThomson]

I have posted below the opening paragraphs taken from an article that consists of excerpts from A.W. Pink's classical work "The Sovereignty of God", of which I have in my own library. The article is long as it is theologically deep, which is why I want to post these opening comments; for I would like for all to see where Pink is going. The see the rest of the article, just click on the link at the bottom of this post. Also, at the bottom are the four sets of queries that Pink addressed in his book and in this article. These four sets of questions are the core objections by detractors to the Five Doctrines of Grace (a/k/a Calvinism).

I ask that if any of you have questions, comments or objections to any specific portion that you address to me, please be specific. Please quote from a specific section and identify the section for me. I have downloaded the entire article and split it up into six sections: The first is the section below, then each set of questions gets its own section and at the end of the 4th question and with the new paragraph that begins with, " In conclusion..." is the 6th section.

INTRODUCTION

Sovereignty of God and Human Responsibility

"Each of us will give an account of himself to God." Romans 14:12

In our last chapter we considered at some length, the much debated and difficult question of the human will. We have shown that the will of the natural man is neither sovereign nor free—but, instead, a servant and slave. We have argued that a right conception of the sinner's will—its servitude—is essential to a just estimate of his depravity and ruin. The utter corruption and degradation of human nature is something which man hates to acknowledge, and which he will hotly and insistently deny—until he is "taught of God." Much, very much, of the unsound doctrine which we now hear on every hand—is the direct and logical outcome of man's repudiation of God's expressed estimate of human depravity! Men are claiming that they are "increased with goods, and have need of nothing," and know not that they are "wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked!" (Revelation 3:17). They prate about the 'Ascent of Man,' and deny his Fall. They put darkness for light; and light for darkness. They boast of the 'free moral agency' of man when, in fact, he is in bondage to sin and enslaved by Satan, "taken captive by him at his will" (2 Timothy 2:26).

But if the natural man is not a 'free moral agent,' does it also follow that he is not accountable?

'Free moral agency' is an expression of human invention and, as we have said before, to talk of the freedom of the natural man—is to flatly repudiate his total spiritual ruin. Nowhere does Scripture speak of the freedom or moral ability of the sinner; on the contrary, it insists on his moral and spiritual inability.

This is, admittedly, the most difficult branch of our subject. Those who have ever devoted much study to this theme, have uniformly recognized that the harmonizing of God's Sovereignty with Man's Responsibility is the gordian knot of theology. (Gordian knot: 1. An intricate knot tied by King Gordius of Phrygia and cut by Alexander the Great with his sword after hearing an oracle promise that whoever could undo it would be the next ruler of Asia. 2. An exceedingly complicated and unsolvable problem (The American Heritage Dictionary)

The main difficulty encountered, is to define the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Many have summarily disposed of the difficulty by denying the existence of any difficulty. A certain class of theologians, in their anxiety to maintain man's responsibility, have magnified it beyond all due proportions, until God's sovereignty has been lost sight of, and in not a few instances flatly denied. Others have acknowledged that the Scriptures present both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man—but affirm that in our present finite condition, and with our limited knowledge it is impossible to reconcile the two truths, though it is the bounden duty of the believer to receive both.

The present writer believes that it has been too readily assumed that the Scriptures themselves do not reveal the several points which show the conciliation of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. While perhaps the Word of God does not clear up all the mystery (and this is said with reserve), it does throw much light upon the problem, and it seems to us more honoring to God and His Word to prayerfully search the Scriptures for the complete solution of the difficulty, and even though others have thus far searched in vain—that ought only to drive us more and more to our knees. God has been pleased to reveal many things out of His Word during the last century, which were hidden from earlier students. Who then dare affirm that there is not much to be learned yet respecting our present inquiry!

As we have said above, our chief difficulty is to determine the meeting-point of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. To many, it has seemed that for God to assert His sovereignty, for Him to put forth His power and exert a direct influence upon man, for Him to do anything more than warn or invite—would be to interfere with man's freedom, destroy his responsibility, and reduce him to a mere machine. It is sad indeed to find one like the late Dr. Pierson—whose writings are generally so scriptural and helpful—saying, "It is a tremendous thought that even God Himself cannot control my moral frame, or constrain my moral choice. He cannot prevent me defying and denying Him, and would not exercise His power in such directions if He could, and could not if He would" (A Spiritual Clinique). It is sadder still to discover that many other respected and loved brethren are giving expression to the same sentiments. Sad, because directly at variance with the Holy Scriptures!

It is our desire to face honestly the difficulties involved, and to examine them carefully in what light God has been pleased to grant us. The chief difficulties might be expressed thus:

First, How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men—that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do—and yet to preserve their responsibility?

Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do? And how can he be justly condemned for not doing what he could not do?

Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and judge them guilty because they committed them?

Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him—when God had foreordained him to condemnation?

We shall now deal with these several problems in the above order. May the Holy Spirit Himself be our Teacher, so that in His light we may see light. (emphases mine)

https://www.monergism.com/gods-sovereignty-and-human-responsibility

You said: "In our last chapter we considered at some length, the much debated and difficult question of the human will. We have shown that the will of the natural man is neither sovereign nor free—but, instead, a servant and slave. We have argued that a right conception of the sinner's will—its servitude—is essential to a just estimate of his depravity and ruin."

My response is:

The following treatise beyond this intro seems to rely upon assuming the above claims about the will and slavery. The foundation of the following treatise is not agreed upon. No one who disagrees with the foundation Pink has laid is going to agree with ideas he is about to build upon them unless the foundation is first proven to be biblically solid; which it is not.

 

[PaulThomson]

Absolutely! God literally and supernaturally created his own nation from Abraham who was as "good as dead" (Rom 4:19; Heb 11:12) due to his old age and from Sarah's dead womb! God sovereignly entered into a personal, loving, unconditional relationship with Abraham to create a people for Himself. If that isn't election, then I don't know what is! Moreover, the Abraham Covenant is a redemptive covenant by nature in which God wasted no time whatsoever to drive the point home early on that the people who descended from Abraham and Sarah ultimately came into this world by God's power alone! I am convinced this is one of the reasons why God rejected Ishmael from participating in this redemptive covenant of promise. This covenant was going to be fulfilled solely by God Sovereign Grace (a/k/a power)!

Sister, I have some really good stuff that I'll be beaming up soon. But it's not milk! It's not Theology 101! More like tough meat, Theology 303 <g>. So, I hope you can find the time to read the lengthy article to which I'll be linking everyone. Take it in bite-sized chunks. The article asks four major sets of theological questions, so take 'em all one at a time at a pace that is comfortable for you. Each set of questions addresses a specific issue that detractors to the Five Doctrines of Grace often use in their attempt to refute these doctrines, most especially the doctrine of Total Depravity.

No one was rejected from participating in His redemptive covenant of promise. Anyone could dedicate themselves to Yahweh and join the community of faith. Also, part of the covenant to Abraham was “I will bless those who bless you, and those who curse you I will curse. This was also a way those outside of Abraham’s physical descendants could participate in the redemptive covenant of promise.

Secondly, God’s sovereign grace is not a synonym for power, For Calvinists, everything seems to be about power and control. Grace is God’s underserved good will towards His creatures. It may be expressed sometimes as power, but not always. It may be expressed as mercy.

 

[PaulThomson]

Jesus does make a distinction between hearing and understanding and hearing and not understanding. If someone believes that that is a function of the hearer I get that. But if understanding is a function of revelation, hearing is no longer a function of the hearer, but is a function of one's spiritual estate.
I don't believe every reference to hearing must of necessity include the spirit. But neither does it mean none do.
As Christians, we ask God for understanding and wisdom. Why? Because we recognize that there are spiritual truths and realities beyond our natural abilities.

When you ask someone to explain how to understand a math problem, is that an admission that the problem is beyond your natural faculties?

 

[Rufus]

Call them the calvinist doctrines of God's showing favouritism.

Since all souls belong to God (Ezek 18:4), does he not have a right to do with them as he pleases, or are you jealous of his magnificent generosity with many (Mat 20:15)? Or does not the Potter have the right to make from one lump of clay some pots for noble purposes and others for common use (Rom 9:21)?

How long have you been a card-carrying member of the Worldly Wise?

 

[Rufus]

No one was rejected from participating in His redemptive covenant of promise. Anyone could dedicate themselves to Yahweh and join the community of faith. Also, part of the covenant to Abraham was “I will bless those who bless you, and those who curse you I will curse. This was also a way those outside of Abraham’s physical descendants could participate in the redemptive covenant of promise.

Secondly, God’s sovereign grace is not a synonym for power, For Calvinists, everything seems to be about power and control. Grace is God’s underserved good will towards His creatures. It may be expressed sometimes as power, but not always. It may be expressed as mercy.

Really? Ishmael and Esau were.

 

[Rufus]

The typically erroneous and wholly ignorant response. God DOES NOT NEED to trample on the will of unbelieving men.

The fact is that omniscient God has EVERY CONTINGENCY, every providential solution, every countermeasure strategy PREPARED before the foundation of the world.......in terms of His plan of salvation as it relates to those who believe Him and put their trust in Him.

The rest? Judgement/separation. Sooner or later. Which puts an end to THEIR evil will as it affects His creation.

Presently, the evil will of evil entities IS ALLOWED to manifest. But not forever.

Hmmm...so since the saints in eternity WON'T be ABLE to freely make choices to sin or not, I guess all free wills got tossed into the Lake of Fire along with all their hosts who used to boast about the mighty power and autonomy and their will?

 

[PaulThomson]

Since all souls belong to God (Ezek 18:4), does he not have a right to do with them as he pleases, or are you jealous of his magnificent generosity with many (Mat 20:15)? Or does not the Potter have the right to make from one lump of clay some pots for noble purposes and others for common use (Rom 9:21)?

How long have you been a card-carrying member of the Worldly Wise?

"Since all souls belong to God (Ezek 18:4), does he not have a right to do with them as he pleases,?"

Yes. But it does not please Him to show favoritism/partiality.
Romans 2:11 ESV / 1,659 helpful votes
For God shows no partiality.
James 2:1 ESV / 1,562 helpful votes
My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Acts 10:34 ESV / 1,307 helpful votes
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
Galatians 3:28 ESV / 1,268 helpful votes
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Leviticus 19:15 ESV / 1,238 helpful votes
“You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.
James 2:4 ESV / 1,177 helpful votes
Have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
1 Timothy 5:21 ESV / 1,162 helpful votes
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
Acts 10:34-35 ESV / 1,093 helpful votes
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Proverbs 28:21 ESV / 1,022 helpful votes
To show partiality is not good, but for a piece of bread a man will do wrong.
Deuteronomy 10:17 ESV / 1,007 helpful votes
For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
James 2:1-4 ESV / 914 helpful votes
My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Acts 10:35 ESV / 882 helpful votes
But in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Romans 1:16 ESV / 878 helpful votes
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
James 2:9 ESV / 861 helpful votes
But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jude 1:16 ESV / 852 helpful votes
These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.
James 3:17 ESV / 849 helpful votes
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

"Or are you jealous of his magnificent generosity with many (Mat 20:15)?
No. But His generosity is not partial. His generously and genuinely offers reconciliation to all, not a select few.

"Or does not the Potter have the right to make from one lump of clay some pots for noble purposes and others for common use (Rom 9:21)?"
Yes. He designates each pot for use impartially, according to the same criteria for all.

 

[Rufus]

They wanted to kill Jesus. God did not unilaterally replace a desire to free Jesus with a desire to kill Him. Hence, their wills were free.

And that is precisely why they are morally culpable for their crime. God's decree and man's responsibility are in a state of conciliation.

 

[PaulThomson]

Really? Ishmael and Esau were.

Esau, the patriarch, was blessed for deferring to Jacob, according to the Abrahamic covenant: "Those who bless you I will bless." Ishmael was blessed and retained the blessing as long as he deferred to Isaac.

 

[PaulThomson]

And that is precisely why they are morally culpable for their crime. God's decree and man's responsibility are in a state of conciliation.

I have no idea what that last sentence means.

Conciliatin: noun. the act or process of conciliating. a method of helping the parties in a dispute to reach agreement, esp divorcing or separating couples to part amicably.

 

[PaulThomson]

The same way Michael, the Mightiest of Angels spoke to him/them.

Jude 1:8-11 NLT - "In the same way, these people--who claim authority from their dreams--live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at supernatural beings. But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.) But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction. What sorrow awaits them! For they follow in the footsteps of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they deceive people for money. And like Korah, they perish in their rebellion."

I give up on the hatred that thrives within this forum.

Plank, splinter, eye?

 

[PaulThomson]

When Satan appears soon, are you perhaps planning on exchanging pleasantries with him?

I sometimes take time to advise satan to repent and seek God for mercy. The church shows forth God's willingness to forgive the penitent. Maybe satan is supposed to learn from that and change his attitude to God. If God's decree regarding Nineveh was not set in stone, but meant to motivate them to repent, maybe God's decrees regarding satan and demons has the same intention. but so long as Satan hasn't done so, I remain opposed to him.

 

[PaulThomson]

Some people seem to think prayer is to bend God to their will. I believe prayer helps bend our will to His...

Or it may be a cooperative process by which God invites us to work with Him to devise and create a better future.

 

[cv5]

Hmmm...so since the saints in eternity WON'T be ABLE to freely make choices to sin or not

False assumption.......

 

[selahsays]

I sometimes take time to advise satan to repent and seek God for mercy. The church shows forth God's willingness to forgive the penitent. Maybe satan is supposed to learn from that and change his attitude to God. If God's decree regarding Nineveh was not set in stone, but meant to motivate them to repent, maybe God's decrees regarding satan and demons has the same intention.

Uhhh. I don’t think so. It’s too late. Satan has already been sentenced to death.

Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." ' "

- Ezekiel 28:11-19

 

[BillyBob]

There have been some on here claiming to be Southern Baptist promoting TULIP.
I just was made to understand that TULIP is a Reformed Doctrine.
Are you saying that your Southern Baptist Church does not preach TULIP or 5 Doctrines of Grace?

As I stated earlier, I AM NOT A MEMBER OF THE SBC!

 

[BillyBob]

Are you being misrepresented now also?

It seems that I am!

 

[Rufus]

"Since all souls belong to God (Ezek 18:4), does he not have a right to do with them as he pleases,?"

Yes. But it does not please Him to show favoritism/partiality.
Romans 2:11 ESV / 1,659 helpful votes
For God shows no partiality.
James 2:1 ESV / 1,562 helpful votes
My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Acts 10:34 ESV / 1,307 helpful votes
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
Galatians 3:28 ESV / 1,268 helpful votes
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Leviticus 19:15 ESV / 1,238 helpful votes
“You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.
James 2:4 ESV / 1,177 helpful votes
Have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
1 Timothy 5:21 ESV / 1,162 helpful votes
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
Acts 10:34-35 ESV / 1,093 helpful votes
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Proverbs 28:21 ESV / 1,022 helpful votes
To show partiality is not good, but for a piece of bread a man will do wrong.
Deuteronomy 10:17 ESV / 1,007 helpful votes
For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
James 2:1-4 ESV / 914 helpful votes
My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Acts 10:35 ESV / 882 helpful votes
But in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Romans 1:16 ESV / 878 helpful votes
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
James 2:9 ESV / 861 helpful votes
But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jude 1:16 ESV / 852 helpful votes
These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.
James 3:17 ESV / 849 helpful votes
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

"Or are you jealous of his magnificent generosity with many (Mat 20:15)?
No. But His generosity is not partial. His generously and genuinely offers reconciliation to all, not a select few.

"Or does not the Potter have the right to make from one lump of clay some pots for noble purposes and others for common use (Rom 9:21)?"
Yes. He designates each pot for use impartially, according to the same criteria for all.

Since God's will is never contingent on any of his creatures (Eph 1:11) , how can he show any "partiality"? He does ALL things for his OWN glory and for the sake of his OWN Name -- and not for the sake of any creature. To be "partial", by definition, means to be inclined to favor one party more than the other; or to be markedly fond of someone or something. Yet, scripture does not teach that God does this. It teaches precisely what I just said earlier (see Isa 48:9-11; Jer 13:11; Ps 106:7-8; Sam 12:22; Ezek 36:22-23; Eph 1:4-6, etc., etc.).

And besides, all this, what would possibly induce God to be biased or partial to any sinful creature? Don''t you know there is NOTHING good in man? So what would entice a thrice holy God to favor one vile man over another? Their good looks? Color of their skin? Dynamic personality? (On second thought though...He did save the Woman...but the Man not so much...Hmm...)

I posted on the Glory of God previously. Evidently, you didn't have ears to hear then...and you probably won't now either.