Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,859
845
113
Methinks God invented doctrines. But since doctrines are not so important to you, then I suppose you must think that cults like the JWs that don't hold to the divinity of Christ are okay? All their members are saved, right?
Well Rufus, the JW's think they are saved.

Some Christian Forums would allow JWs to be members.

Just the same as some Christian Forums allow Seventh Day Adventists
to be members. Or Mormons, Christadelphians, legalists, etc.

A Christian Forum must make the tough decision to allow or deny a
membership of a heretical church institution. How does anyone know
whether a cult member may see the error of their ways?

A doctrine is a truth statement, there are not many important doctrines
in the scripture.

The ultimate truth statement in the scripture is the death and
resurrection of Jesus Christ, for our reconciliation to His Father.
And our confession of His name. (Romans 10:9)
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,276
245
63
Do you have any idea that million of people every year give up alcohol?

Nearly all of those people exercise some level of free will to do that.

Most are not Christian!

Usually alcoholics give up alcohol when they realize their lives are a
train wreck. I have heard countless testimonies of drunkards that have
given up the devil's amber fluid. Alcoholism is a very selfish and
powerful addiction.
Yes, people have the power to reform their ways, most especially a habit; but they have no power to transform themselves into something they are not, e.g. totally change their nature. They have no power to become partakers of the divine nature (2Pet 1:4).
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,276
245
63
Well Rufus, the JW's think they are saved.

Some Christian Forums would allow JWs to be members.

Just the same as some Christian Forums allow Seventh Day Adventists
to be members. Or Mormons, Christadelphians, legalists, etc.

A Christian Forum must make the tough decision to allow or deny a
membership of a heretical church institution. How does anyone know
whether a cult member may see the error of their ways?

A doctrine is a truth statement, there are not many important doctrines
in the scripture.

The ultimate truth statement in the scripture is the death and
resurrection of Jesus Christ, for our reconciliation to His Father.
And our confession of His name. (Romans 10:9)
Yes, I'm well aware of what "Christian" Forums allow. It's the sign of the times with many of these forums, that generally hold the objective Truth Claims of Christian Faith in low regard. Trinity? Hah. No big deal. Incarnation? No biggie either. Christ is a lesser god that's all. The Impeccability of Christ? Why even go there, etc. The Fall of Man? Don't be ridiculous. Just an allegory.

But here's a bit of dogma for you: "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3). I strongly suspect that hell will literally be loaded with people who believed in God like the demons do.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,123
2,151
113
Yes, people have the power to reform their ways, most especially a habit; but they have no power to transform themselves into something they are not, e.g. totally change their nature. They have no power to become partakers of the divine nature (2Pet 1:4).
Amsterdammit! Tulip verses are springing up all over... What does 2Pet 1:4 actually say anyway? I mean I don't have the actual verse conveniently on hand to check for myself.

So, we have absolutely no influence on His Grace, you say? Why should we even pray? Just in case?
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,952
113
Although you mention experiencing burdens from when you were a little boy, which in my mind could mean so many things that either you dealt with on a personal level or had witnessed. I do wonder about those who carry things and seem to never find relief. But to compare your experience with Job and the sifting that Peter endured and escaped paints a very deep intact understanding that you do feel empowered by these trials you have overcome. And the urgency to create an atmosphere of peace amongst us all is very telling. Very admirable considering you are looking beyond this moment but desire this moment right now to be united.

So many thoughts are flooding my mind here and now from reading your words. I believe I shall take this at a slow even pace to see if my thoughts connect here. I would almost wonder if you are a counselor because in the medical arena you seem qualified as a therapist/psychologist.
Sir, you are very wise. And your gentle sense in this discussion, separates you from the likes of Zophar, Bildad, and Eliphaz. Instead of assuming horrible things that would be considered disparaging to my person, which is what these three "friends" were guilty of, your heart is following the proper and Divine response to those who suffer. And to this, is why the Lord has gifted those who suffer, with the Book of Job. Very few seem to recognize the Holy Purpose of this Book, for you are the only one to have acknowledged its purpose. The vast majority want to focus on the notion that "Job never sinned," but even this is misunderstood. The Book of Job is not only written for those who suffer, but is also a written Word that points to our shocking Messiah, who would be tortured, and not utter a word. How . . . staggering. And of course, this is the example that we are to follow, and not the example of His saying harsh things to others. For, that is the role of God and God alone.

Matthew 5:22 KJV - "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Who are we to berate anything the Lord creates? Who are we to say that His creations are no good? Who are we to cast disparaging words against another? Moreover, who are we to even challenge God Himself in how He has created us?

Romans 9:20 NKJV - "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?"

I have noticed that when people just talk to one another they feel for each other. They begin to harmonize. But when people come at you on the basis of doctrine, they preach at you but more so pass judgement and issue condemnation.
You know what? You have mentioned this several times now, and it is only now that I understand what you mean. Wow. This is gripping in that I see the tremendous value in possessing this understanding (and how much more we need to simply Love one another and not allow doctrine to determine our friendships and relationships. I have never heard such a teaching, though I have been practicing it myself without knowing it.

Sir, this is precisely the kind of "talk" that I am looking for. No one needs to believe what I believe; that is not what I am about. What is most important, to me, is that the Love of Christ be made evident in my words, actions, and Life.

I cannot thank you enough for this gentle and kind response. I can assure you that it is most rewarding in my heart, and also hope that you find this interaction to be inspiring, and that we might continue in this Holy Path more and more. Will we be perfect? Of course not, but we can always improve, and considering the process of Holy Sanctification, improvement is something that each of us ought to expect of ourselves. Again, thank you so much. All respect to you.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,952
113
You obviously know very little about healthy nutrition.
Thanks for sharing what you think is obvious. However, I am a Produce Specialist and likely know more about nutrition that most. But, since you have placed yourself in the seat of Understanding, Knowledge, and Wisdom regarding food, what can I do about that . . .
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,952
113
Do you have any idea that million of people every year give up alcohol?
Thank you for conveying the idea that I am utterly stupid. Congratulations on attempting to diminish the spirit of yet another human. I see that you have replied to another of my posts, and if it is the third time you attempt to belittle my intelligence, you will be placed on ignore.
 

MerSee

Active member
Jan 13, 2024
796
119
43
Sir, you are very wise. And your gentle sense in this discussion, separates you from the likes of Zophar, Bildad, and Eliphaz. Instead of assuming horrible things that would be considered disparaging to my person, which is what these three "friends" were guilty of, your heart is following the proper and Divine response to those who suffer. And to this, is why the Lord has gifted those who suffer, with the Book of Job. Very few seem to recognize the Holy Purpose of this Book, for you are the only one to have acknowledged its purpose. The vast majority want to focus on the notion that "Job never sinned," but even this is misunderstood. The Book of Job is not only written for those who suffer, but is also a written Word that points to our shocking Messiah, who would be tortured, and not utter a word. How . . . staggering. And of course, this is the example that we are to follow, and not the example of His saying harsh things to others. For, that is the role of God and God alone.

Matthew 5:22 KJV - "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Who are we to berate anything the Lord creates? Who are we to say that His creations are no good? Who are we to cast disparaging words against another? Moreover, who are we to even challenge God Himself in how He has created us?

Romans 9:20 NKJV - "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?"



You know what? You have mentioned this several times now, and it is only now that I understand what you mean. Wow. This is gripping in that I see the tremendous value in possessing this understanding (and how much more we need to simply Love one another and not allow doctrine to determine our friendships and relationships. I have never heard such a teaching, though I have been practicing it myself without knowing it.

Sir, this is precisely the kind of "talk" that I am looking for. No one needs to believe what I believe; that is not what I am about. What is most important, to me, is that the Love of Christ be made evident in my words, actions, and Life.

I cannot thank you enough for this gentle and kind response. I can assure you that it is most rewarding in my heart, and also hope that you find this interaction to be inspiring, and that we might continue in this Holy Path more and more. Will we be perfect? Of course not, but we can always improve, and considering the process of Holy Sanctification, improvement is something that each of us ought to expect of ourselves. Again, thank you so much. All respect to you.
Only the elect ultimately believe the correct doctrine of Jesus Christ. Those who ultimately choose to believe incorrect doctrine will have their false unity in hell.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,952
113
Only the elect ultimately believe the correct doctrine of Jesus Christ. Those who ultimately choose to believe incorrect doctrine will have their false unity in hell.
Have you found another person who believes ALL doctrines as the same as you?
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,952
113
Only the elect ultimately believe the correct doctrine of Jesus Christ. Those who ultimately choose to believe incorrect doctrine will have their false unity in hell.
Furthermore, haven't you, at some point/s in your life, realized that you were wrong and made a change in beliefs?
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
Amsterdammit! Tulip verses are springing up all over... What does 2Pet 1:4 actually say anyway? I mean I don't have the actual verse conveniently on hand to check for myself.

So, we have absolutely no influence on His Grace, you say? Why should we even pray? Just in case?
Yes, exactly! Here it is:

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, throughly the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

- 2 Peter 1:2-4
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
Yes, people have the power to reform their ways, most especially a habit; but they have no power to transform themselves into something they are not, e.g. totally change their nature. They have no power to become partakers of the divine nature (2Pet 1:4).
In Christ we do.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,815
29,194
113
Yes, people have the power to reform their ways, most especially a habit; but they have
no power to transform themselves into something they are not, e.g. totally change their
nature. They have no power to become partakers of the divine nature (2Pet 1:4).
Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are
accustomed to doing evil... I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me,
and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.
:)
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,952
113
Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are
accustomed to doing evil... I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me,
and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.
:)
The NIV makes a pretty good one-liner from Job:

Job 11:12 NIV - "But the witless can no more become wise than a wild donkey's colt can be born human."

Spiritual Wisdom comes from the Lord, not ourselves!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,815
29,194
113
The NIV makes a pretty good one-liner from Job:

Job 11:12 NIV - "But the witless can no more become wise than a wild donkey's colt can be born human."

Spiritual Wisdom comes from the Lord, not ourselves!
I have seen at least a couple and maybe more posts from you mentioning Job...

First: Thank you for sharing your heart with us... second: have you seen my Job panels?

This one in particular came to mind as I read one of your posts:


Job 1:21b; 13:15a
:)
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,952
113
I have seen at least a couple and maybe more posts from you mentioning Job...

First: Thank you for sharing your heart with us... second: have you seen my Job panels?

This one in particular came to mind as I read one of your posts:


Job 1:21b; 13:15a
:)
You are more than welcome my dear. And no, I don't believe I have ever seen these panels from job! And thank you for sharing! :)