Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Cameron143]

God is sovereign in removing all the inhibitors of salvation, without exception other than the free will to come, and learn of Him (Whom Is Salvation). And inherent with the privilege to choose rightly, is the freedom to (go against His counsel) and choose wrongly. And I do not limit God's reach to that of missionaries, although they would provide a "more accurate" understanding of salvation.

When God removes those inhibitions, men always choose God.
And God isn't limited to His prescribed ways of doing things. He can reach anyone, anywhere, anytime. But He hasn't always done so. These are people many would say are included in the world in John 3:16. Do you include them? And how has God manifested His love towards them?

 

[Cameron143]

God give man the grace to repent of their sins.

Every man?

 

[Rufus]

Paul's answer to a similar question was, "who are you, O man, to contradict God?"

God bemoans the fact that he tried to woo Israel and many resisted His wooing. Now you are contradicting what God said, and asserting a human devised theological claim that says the opposite.

Ez.16:8-21

8 “When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord God, and you became mine. 9 Then I bathed you with water and washed off your blood from you and I anointed you with oil. 10 I clothed you also with embroidered cloth and shod you with fine leather. I wrapped you in fine linen and covered you with silk. 11 And I adorned you with ornaments and put bracelets on your wrists and a chain on your neck. 12 And I put a ring on your nose and earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was of fine linen and silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour and honey and oil. You grew exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. 14 And your renown went forth among the nations because of your beauty, for it was perfect through the splendor that I had bestowed on you, declares the Lord God.
15 “But you trusted in your beauty and played the whore because of your renown and lavished your whorings on any passerby; your beauty4 became his. 16 You took some of your garments and made for yourself colorful shrines, and on them played the whore. The like has never been, nor ever shall be.5 17 You also took your beautiful jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given you, and zmade for yourself images of men, and with them played the whore. 18 And you took your embroidered garments to cover them, aand set my oil and my incense before them. 19 Also my bread that I gave you—I fed you with fine flour and oil and honey—you set before them for a pleasing aroma; and so it was, declares the Lord God. 20 And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter 21 that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?

Hmm...this passage kinda nicely explains the absolute necessity for the unilateral New Covenant, which is very much unlike the Old.

And notice in v. 15 how apostate Israel -- the seed of the Serpent -- emulated their real father the devil: "But you trusted in your beauty..."

 

[Mem]

When God removes those inhibitions, men always choose God.
And God isn't limited to His prescribed ways of doing things. He can reach anyone, anywhere, anytime. But He hasn't always done so. These are people many would say are included in the world in John 3:16. Do you include them? And how has God manifested His love towards them?

How then can God's grace be made of no effect, as scripture 'suggests'?

 

[Cameron143]

How then can God's grace be made of no effect, as scripture 'suggests'?

Hebrews 4:2...when it is not mixed with faith.

 

[MerSee]

Every man?

God gives every man to grace to repent; most continue to refuse to repent.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes I see that as well.

I have done some research on these trained responses, it is rather impressive how the same debate tactics are employed over and over again.

This guy basically said the Reformed doctrine is truly not believed by anyone but they are taught to wear you down in order to convince themselves they're speaking the truth.

 

[Cameron143]

How then can God's grace be made of no effect, as scripture 'suggests'?

Way more than 3,000 people heard the Gospel the day of Pentecost. Only 3,000 are said to hear and be pricked in their hearts.

 

[Rufus]

The "system" requires it and some people need to feel special, God picked me.

There is no middle ground, God either chooses or He does not not, if He pricks one ear and not the other He is still selecting.

I am convinced this is more psychological than biblical.

Nice bit of projection...when in fact the theological system(s) of NR requires them to feel special since they must assign to themselves a power that even God himself doesn't have: To change their nature. You and your ilk believe leopards can change their spots or that Ethiopians can change the color of their skin. All you guys have to do is will it with your super powerful, autonomous free will in order for it to happen.

 

[Cameron143]

God gives every man to grace to repent; most continue to refuse to repent.

Do you have a scriptural reference?

 

[Mem]

Way more than 3,000 people heard the Gospel the day of Pentecost. Only 3,000 are said to hear and be pricked in their hearts.

Right. These did not resist the truth.

 

[HeIsHere]

This guy basically said the Reformed doctrine is truly not believed by anyone but they are taught to wear you down in order to convince themselves they're speaking the truth.

Isn't that interesting, agree some people (thank you God) cannot sustain the cognitive dissonance and break free!!

But others are programmed beyond that point.

When you read scripture, and you read IN what you have been programmed to believe that is not an easy thing to escape, especially if you are surrounded by like minded people.

Also, human pride, being able to admit "I was wrong" when I think of how I defended some (not all) of this system I just cringe, sad face.

Thanks for this will look it up.

 

[Rufus]

Folks, I have a serious question to ask, most especially to all the NR (non-Reformed) here: Can any of you tell me from scripture what the warp 'n' woof (i.e. essence) of the Kingdom of God/Heaven is? Tomes aren't necessary; just a bible text or two or three to make your point. And in case you're wondering, I'm not creating a rabbit trail; the question is highly pertinent to Soteriology.

 

[Cameron143]

Right. These did not resist the truth.

Why wouldn't they? Their hearts were circumcised. The veil was removed. It allowed them of their own volition to say...what shall we do?
No one whose heart wasn't pricked is said to have such a response.

 

[rogerg]

This verse is for SAVED people, not like you are trying to make it mean.

And what am I "trying to make it mean"? Explain.

The ones I have already presented and you try to ignore where they heard first then were saved secondly.

Do me a favor and repost them. But to be logically correct relative to my verse, they need to explicitly state that one does not have to have the Holy Spirit first because mine states that they do, otherwise, they are irrelevant and mis-leading.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Isn't that interesting, agree some people (thank you God) cannot sustain the cognitive dissonance and break free!!

But others are programmed beyond that point.

When you read scripture, and you read IN what you have been programmed to believe that is not an easy thing to escape, especially if you are surrounded by like minded people.

Also, human pride, being able to admit "I was wrong" when I think of how I defended some (not all) of this system I just cringe, sad face.

Thanks for this will look it up.

He has made many quotes. I am paraphrasing but you will see he isn't holding back. He has nothing to lose. He was mister Big Shot and walked away becoming an Atheist over the Reformed Doctrine.....that claims.... is impossible to be saved and walk away from God.

 

[Mem]

Why wouldn't they? Their hearts were circumcised. The veil was removed. It allowed them of their own volition to say...what shall we do?
No one whose heart wasn't pricked is said to have such a response.

You equated a pricking with circumcision, which require a more involved surgery... even if it would seem to be a quick snip. It requires that the pinched foreskin to be stretched and pulled beyond the tip of the proverbial iceberg, held there to determine that the actual iceberg is not glanced by the placement of the clippers before the actual 'snip,' and probably not without a standing assistance to which he can then request, "suction, please."

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And what am I "trying to make it mean"? Explain.

Your verse explains the condition of the Believer. But you are using it prior to someone before they become a Believer.

Do me a favor and repost them. But to be logically correct relative to my verse, they need to explicitly state that one does not have to have the Holy Spirit first because mine states that they do, otherwise, they are irrelevant and mis-leading.

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him

Hear then Believe

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Ruach ha-Kodesh fell on all those hearing the message.

They were hearing the message and then the Holy Spirit came...not before.


There's many more. Paul and Peter use this a lot.

 

[Magenta]

I didn't introduce the term rape or kidnap. These are both terms that were used to characterize what some who hold a particular view of salvation must be claiming. The mischaracterization was done by those who employed the terms. It was their mischaracterization of what they thought others believe. It was incendiary and inappropriate and inaccurate.
You can defend those individuals and those terms if you like, but you would only be guilty of the same.

The mischaracterization goes back to how they view God, and what they ascribe to Him, for they have said
(or agreed with or justify someone else saying) God is raping their free will if x, y, z, or God moving first and/or
enabling amounts to kidnapping people against their free will, and that doing so makes Him an unjust tyrant,
His offer of repentance fraudulent, and that therefore repentance never actually occurs etc etc. Obviously the
reason why they impugn God's character that way is because they wish to intimate that this is the God we
believe in, but it just comes across as slander, when it is also obvious that we believe God moves first and
enables the natural man to hear and believe Spiritual things because He loves us and wants us to come to
the knowledge of the Truth that is in His Son, and His plan for humanity through Jesus, that we may be saved.

In other words, they think that Holy God is a scheming tyrant, unjust judge, kidnapper with wholly nefarious attributes.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The mischaracterization goes back to how they view God, and what they ascribe to Him, for they have said
(or agreed with or justify someone else saying) God is raping their free will if x,y,z, or God moving first and/or
enabling amounts to kidnapping people against their free will, and that doing so makes Him an unjust tyrant,
His offer of repentance fraudulent, and that therefore repentance never actually occurs etc etc. Obviously the
reason why they impugn God's character that way is because they wish to intimate that this is the God we
believe in, but it just comes across as slander, when it is also obvious that we believe God moves first and
enables the natural man to hear and believe Spiritual things because He loves us and wants us to come
to the knowledge of the Truth that is in His Son and His plan for humanity through Jesus.

LOL

I was describing the words from Roger.

To make this into what I think about God when it's my personal definition to what Roger posted is absurd.

Where have I ever said this was the actual character of God?