Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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As I read it, it is functionally equivalent to the KJV and the KJV is what I used, with the "by the faith of" (or "by faithfulness of") informing that our belief comes as a result of (or by) Christ's faith, which faith, causes our sin to be forgiven by the Father, and thereby, we are given the spiritual knowledge to, and do, believe.
[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
I asked early on in the discussion if Paul believed an individual could lose their salvation. I was told I was ignoring context. What I was actually doing was placing the letter in the context of all Paul's letters. If he believed all that I stated, then his concerns for the Galatians could not have been that they would lose their salvation.
Which says nothing on its own about remaining in Christ as commanded.
Same comment. And what are the works we were created to do per the next verse? And what is Paul's fear in Galatians regarding falling from grace (just asking rhetorically since you seem to say it's not a warning to Christians who cannot fall from grace).
Very typical accusation based upon a theological presupposition, but you're hard-pressed to explain Scripture like Philippians 2:12-13 where Christians are commanded to accomplish their salvation by work while God provides His capabilities so they can desire and do what pleases Him.
So, what are the good works Christians were created to do per Eph2:10?
We likely agree to whatever degree re: the 4th soil.
So the 2 & 3rd soil are counterfeit belief/faith? Why do we call it counterfeit and is this aligned with what I think I recall you saying re: there being a difference between belief and faith?
NET Luke 8:15 But as for the seed that landed on good soil, these are the ones who, after hearing the word, cling to it with an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with steadfast endurance.
Same comment. And what are the works we were created to do per the next verse? And what is Paul's fear in Galatians regarding falling from grace (just asking rhetorically since you seem to say it's not a warning to Christians who cannot fall from grace).
Very typical accusation based upon a theological presupposition, but you're hard-pressed to explain Scripture like Philippians 2:12-13 where Christians are commanded to accomplish their salvation by work while God provides His capabilities so they can desire and do what pleases Him.
So, what are the good works Christians were created to do per Eph2:10?
We likely agree to whatever degree re: the 4th soil.
So the 2 & 3rd soil are counterfeit belief/faith? Why do we call it counterfeit and is this aligned with what I think I recall you saying re: there being a difference between belief and faith?
NET Luke 8:15 But as for the seed that landed on good soil, these are the ones who, after hearing the word, cling to it with an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with steadfast endurance.
- What do you do with these active voice verbs I've underlined. Is someone else doing the clinging and fruit bearing for us? This is not what an active voice verb says.
- What do you do with the endurance concept. Those in Christ are commanded to endure in 1Tim6:11; Heb12:1; 2Pet1:5-6. Are these commandments also something unnecessary that those in Christ just do or have done for them? We play no collaborative role in our Salvation Process under grace?
Yes, this is the theory about what a new creation can and cannot do. And it does make some sense. But it doesn't in itself explain all the warnings and commands given to the reborn and it doesn't explain away concepts of desertion, falling from grace, accomplishing our salvation by work in continued obedience, far & trembling, etc...
Christ does it all. As we walk in the Spirit, Christ lives in and through us. We are simply a branch. The life of Christ is what is to compel the Christian.
We only obey any commandment, both inwardly and outwardly, as we walk in the Spirit.
Our collaboration is seeking His kingdom and His righteousness, in humbling ourselves before Him, and surrendering ourselves. He does the rest. The just have always walked by faith, being moved by the unseen hand of God, and resting in His provision.
Abraham is a great example. Most think of Abraham of a great man of faith. And indeed he was. But he wasn't always. He had many failures, and some that have consequences even to this day. But once God set His affections upon Abraham, he was never in any danger of falling away.
As much as we would like to believe we are so close to God, Christians know little of what it is to walk by faith or walk in the Spirit. Their behavior would be far different if they did.
We only obey any commandment, both inwardly and outwardly, as we walk in the Spirit.
Our collaboration is seeking His kingdom and His righteousness, in humbling ourselves before Him, and surrendering ourselves. He does the rest. The just have always walked by faith, being moved by the unseen hand of God, and resting in His provision.
Abraham is a great example. Most think of Abraham of a great man of faith. And indeed he was. But he wasn't always. He had many failures, and some that have consequences even to this day. But once God set His affections upon Abraham, he was never in any danger of falling away.
As much as we would like to believe we are so close to God, Christians know little of what it is to walk by faith or walk in the Spirit. Their behavior would be far different if they did.
The signature line on the posts of selahsays is worth pausing to consider!
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2.
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This is a very important truth!
And do not be conformed to this world
We are always being pressed from all sides by people who are wise in their own eyes. However, these ideas change as time marches on. This is nothing new! But the word of God does not change. It is the same today as it was yesterday.
It was once thought that the king should be head of the church. Today it is all the WOKE ideas that popup on a daily basis.
but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
But we are called on to remain in God's word and consider the ideas that are constantly being pressed upon us. It is only by knowing the will of God that we can make wise decisions that please Him in any way!
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2.
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This is a very important truth!
And do not be conformed to this world
We are always being pressed from all sides by people who are wise in their own eyes. However, these ideas change as time marches on. This is nothing new! But the word of God does not change. It is the same today as it was yesterday.
It was once thought that the king should be head of the church. Today it is all the WOKE ideas that popup on a daily basis.
but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
But we are called on to remain in God's word and consider the ideas that are constantly being pressed upon us. It is only by knowing the will of God that we can make wise decisions that please Him in any way!
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That's not what an active voice command to us says. If I walk in/by Spirit as commanded then I walk by His enablement. It's collaborative.
We the branches are commanded to remain in the vine. A command is made to the volition. A piece of wood has no volition.
Same comments. We volitionally and actively obey (aka faith) inwardly (volitionally) and outwardly (in action) to walk in Spirit. He is the means we walk by volitionally in faith-obedience to our Lord's commands. Once again, collaboration under grace.
Partially correct. These too are obedient actions. Couple them with the rest of His commands and you get to where you need to get to.
Instead of focusing on his failures, which we all have, focus on his obedience. There's a reason he was called "faithful." YLT Galatians 3:9 'Blessed in thee shall be all the nations;' so that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham, YLT Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, being called, did obey, to go forth to the place that he was about to receive for an inheritance, and he went forth, not knowing whither he doth go; NET Genesis 26:5 All this will come to pass because Abraham obeyed me and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
Not all Christians, but most in our day IMO.
We the branches are commanded to remain in the vine. A command is made to the volition. A piece of wood has no volition.
Same comments. We volitionally and actively obey (aka faith) inwardly (volitionally) and outwardly (in action) to walk in Spirit. He is the means we walk by volitionally in faith-obedience to our Lord's commands. Once again, collaboration under grace.
Partially correct. These too are obedient actions. Couple them with the rest of His commands and you get to where you need to get to.
Instead of focusing on his failures, which we all have, focus on his obedience. There's a reason he was called "faithful." YLT Galatians 3:9 'Blessed in thee shall be all the nations;' so that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham, YLT Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, being called, did obey, to go forth to the place that he was about to receive for an inheritance, and he went forth, not knowing whither he doth go; NET Genesis 26:5 All this will come to pass because Abraham obeyed me and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
Not all Christians, but most in our day IMO.
If they could 'extricate themselves' then about 12 Dozen Plain and Clear
Passages would Also be false!, eh?:
God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance
Amen.
Passages would Also be false!, eh?:
God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance
Amen.
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This will answer all 3 of your rhetorical questions:
Show me one spot where I said a Christian does not collaborate with God and walk in/by the Spirit or accomplish his salvation by work apart from our Father providing His capabilities?
From the Cambridge Dictionary online:
collaborate verb (WORK WITH)
Why do you only see the Divine side of collaboration and insist I don't understand being in Christ in Spirit?
Think back to the Garden and ask yourself if God did or did not create man to collaborate with Him in His Creation.
Do you know what it means to walk BY the Spirit? If you don't, then please ask and stop alleging I don't understand the Divine side of the collaboration. Here again, it's easy to look up without my having to go to Greek Grammars to get it:
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
by means of
phrase of means:
Cameron, I know what these things mean in English and I can show you how Greek provides the precision to get us there. This "means" and/or "agency" concept is a category of meaning very typical in the Greek Text. We walk by means of the Spirit as commanded. He leads us and guides us and we can grieve Him and suppress/extinguish Him, so we're commanded not to. If you don't think we as Christians need to obey these commands but Christ somehow takes over for us in obeying the commands He has issued to us (somewhere up to 1,000 of them in the NC) then you don't understand the spiritual life in Christ and the potentially harsh disciplinary training by our Father who had our first-born brother go to the cross in part of His learning obedience to Him.
Show me one spot where I said a Christian does not collaborate with God and walk in/by the Spirit or accomplish his salvation by work apart from our Father providing His capabilities?
From the Cambridge Dictionary online:
collaborate
verb [ I ]
collaborate verb (WORK WITH)
Why do you only see the Divine side of collaboration and insist I don't understand being in Christ in Spirit?
Think back to the Garden and ask yourself if God did or did not create man to collaborate with Him in His Creation.
Do you know what it means to walk BY the Spirit? If you don't, then please ask and stop alleging I don't understand the Divine side of the collaboration. Here again, it's easy to look up without my having to go to Greek Grammars to get it:
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
by means of
phrase of means:
with the help or agency of.
"supplying water to cities by means of aqueducts"
Cameron, I know what these things mean in English and I can show you how Greek provides the precision to get us there. This "means" and/or "agency" concept is a category of meaning very typical in the Greek Text. We walk by means of the Spirit as commanded. He leads us and guides us and we can grieve Him and suppress/extinguish Him, so we're commanded not to. If you don't think we as Christians need to obey these commands but Christ somehow takes over for us in obeying the commands He has issued to us (somewhere up to 1,000 of them in the NC) then you don't understand the spiritual life in Christ and the potentially harsh disciplinary training by our Father who had our first-born brother go to the cross in part of His learning obedience to Him.
No, I don't think He would be offended by that, but what I believe He is offended by are those who do not believe Jesus is the Christ, and therefore, do not believe Jesus is the one whom the Father specifically sent to save His people. In other words, should we not believe Jesus is Christ and Saviour, and as Saviour He alone saves, they (in effect) would be saying Jesus wasn't sent by the Father as Saviour. Therefore, disbelieving the Father's claims about Jesus and calling God a liar. So, should we not believe each and every one of them regarding Christ, then we don't believe any of them because all are interrelated and dependent upon each other.
Regarding Jhn 5:24:
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)
Also note:
[Jhn 6:47 KJV]
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
[Mat 19:29 KJV]
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
[Jhn 12:25 KJV] 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Along with these verses, there are other supposed requirements that need to be fulfilled by us in order to be saved. However, that interpretation cannot be correct because were they actually required, and should we do one but not all then we would not become saved. This would place one at odds with the others. Instead, what is being demonstrated by those and other like verses, is that they are attributes that result FROM salvation, manifested by/within those saved who actually do them, but not the cause of (their) salvation.
As I recall, studier, my question to you was whether you believe that anything outside of salvation by Christ (given He is the Saviour), is needed to become saved - whether He had accomplished all and bestows it, in its fullness, simply through grace, or if you believe our works are also an essential component of salvation in addition to Christ? If you believe that Christ is the Saviour, then it must follow that you also believe He alone saves apart from any of our actions. However, based upon your prior post, my understanding is that you believe our works a necessary part of becoming saved. Is that still true?
The Saviour is God, which includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (as there is but one God), who was manifested as Jesus in the earthly personage of the Christ. He is life eternal and freely bestows that life (Himself) at His in-dwelling of those He saves. He is the realization of their promised inheritance but only to those chosen before the foundation of the world as beneficiaries of His will - the elect.
Jesus glorified and prayed to the Father in the gospels because He, even though (being) God incarnate, took upon Himself the form of a servant made in the likeness of men (Phl 2:7). By temporarily setting aside His power as God and being in the form of a man, He rightly prayed to the Father, but never ceased to be God.
Regarding Jhn 5:24:
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)
Also note:
[Jhn 6:47 KJV]
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
[Mat 19:29 KJV]
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
[Jhn 12:25 KJV] 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Along with these verses, there are other supposed requirements that need to be fulfilled by us in order to be saved. However, that interpretation cannot be correct because were they actually required, and should we do one but not all then we would not become saved. This would place one at odds with the others. Instead, what is being demonstrated by those and other like verses, is that they are attributes that result FROM salvation, manifested by/within those saved who actually do them, but not the cause of (their) salvation.
As I recall, studier, my question to you was whether you believe that anything outside of salvation by Christ (given He is the Saviour), is needed to become saved - whether He had accomplished all and bestows it, in its fullness, simply through grace, or if you believe our works are also an essential component of salvation in addition to Christ? If you believe that Christ is the Saviour, then it must follow that you also believe He alone saves apart from any of our actions. However, based upon your prior post, my understanding is that you believe our works a necessary part of becoming saved. Is that still true?
The Saviour is God, which includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (as there is but one God), who was manifested as Jesus in the earthly personage of the Christ. He is life eternal and freely bestows that life (Himself) at His in-dwelling of those He saves. He is the realization of their promised inheritance but only to those chosen before the foundation of the world as beneficiaries of His will - the elect.
Jesus glorified and prayed to the Father in the gospels because He, even though (being) God incarnate, took upon Himself the form of a servant made in the likeness of men (Phl 2:7). By temporarily setting aside His power as God and being in the form of a man, He rightly prayed to the Father, but never ceased to be God.
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I find it difficult to have a discussion with you because from my vantage point you deflect from actually answering my questions. You broaden the discussion, and when I ask about something you add, you continue the same pattern.
My questions weren't rhetorical. I would like to know what commandment you have kept in your own endeavor. I would like to know when you have actually loved God with all your mind, heart, and strength. I would like to know what you believe the commandment requires of an individual for it to be completely and perfectly kept.
If man is collaborating with God in salvation, salvation is not then of grace. He is called to respond to this grace and does with obedience. But not until has drawn him, made known what Christ has done for him, and the Spirit circumcises his heart. Before such time, man is at enmity with God and a slave to sin.
Once saved, the individual does collaborate with God. According to Philippians 2:12-13, he is to work out into practice what the Lord is working in.
My questions weren't rhetorical. I would like to know what commandment you have kept in your own endeavor. I would like to know when you have actually loved God with all your mind, heart, and strength. I would like to know what you believe the commandment requires of an individual for it to be completely and perfectly kept.
If man is collaborating with God in salvation, salvation is not then of grace. He is called to respond to this grace and does with obedience. But not until has drawn him, made known what Christ has done for him, and the Spirit circumcises his heart. Before such time, man is at enmity with God and a slave to sin.
Once saved, the individual does collaborate with God. According to Philippians 2:12-13, he is to work out into practice what the Lord is working in.
Thanks. I'm familiar with all of this. I don't see us now being in disagreement that God and His Son are both referred to as Savior.
Re: the rest of your post: I see Salvation as God's Plan and as a Process for those who enter are entered into Christ. I see the hundreds of commands in the NC Scriptures as being given to the Christian to obey - which is the flip side of the coin "faith" - and that this faith-obedience aka faithfulness and love for God is developed in the Christian in collaboration with the triune God providing His capabilities to us to do this but also to desire to do this.
I think many Christians have been taught a substantial emphasis on entering into Christ but that emphasis is drilled into them repeatedly and the 'being saved" part of the Salvation Process is underemphasized and being confused with the entrance into Christ.
I think the whole "works salvation" issue is overblown to an extreme and Christians who do not understand what I just said above are confused when work is mentioned by another or in verses like Phil2:11-12 when translated properly. I also like to present this following verse once in a while just to get a reaction and take the temperature of the room so to speak (My bold highlights and parenthetical addition):
ESV John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but (work) for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." (Jn. 6:27 ESV)
I hate to tell everybody but Jesus told - actually commanded - unbelievers to work for the food (information) that lasts into eternal life which He gives as a gift.
And Paul commanded Christians to accomplish their salvation by work in collaboration with God who provides His capabilities so they can do so (Phl2:11-12).
I don't throw out or explain over these Scriptures and I don't follow the crowd that gets wrongly hung-up on works. Paul is very specific when he teaches about faith vs. works of law.
I also don't use the traditional Justification > Sanctification > Glorification phraseology because "sanctified" for example is not used just for the "being saved" part of the Salvation Process but is also spoken of along with the initial Justification part of the Salvation Process (were saved).
For various reasons I won't go into now, I was prompted and did a study of all the salvation verses and instruction in the Text and anything that was directly attached to it. It took me well over a year to do and this was as a full-time project - IOW mostly every day for many hours per day.
Part of the way into it I began to see that all the emphasis on entering into Salvation (getting "saved" - entering into Christ) is not the main emphasis in our Text. In fact most of the discussion on Salvation is looking through this entrance and into the Christian's walk - being saved.
Other than this, some of what you say we both know we disagree on. I don't agree with TULIP.