Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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I think both are true. New Christians can be some of the biggest legalists there are. But over time the grace of God teaches them otherwise. And I believe part of the admonition deals with this. I believe also that Paul is warning others that grace of God is not found in association to the law and such thinking may well be evidence that no relationship to Christ actually exists. But at no time do I believe he is saying that someone who is in Christ is in danger of not being in Christ.
The reason is easy enough to understand. One cannot place themselves into Christ. It is a spiritual activity that God the Holy Spirit does. And He alone does it. And no one but God can undo it. How does one unbaptize themselves from being in Christ. While I do believe in the perseverance of the believer, it would more aptly be named the preservation of believers due to the perseverance of Christ...He which hath done a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ...Philippians 1:6.
It's easy enough to establish that God seals believers once saved. Once one understands this, passages that seem to suggest otherwise can be easily understood. As I'm sure you know, a basic rule of Bible study is to understand what is unclear by what is clear, and not the other way around.
The reason is easy enough to understand. One cannot place themselves into Christ. It is a spiritual activity that God the Holy Spirit does. And He alone does it. And no one but God can undo it. How does one unbaptize themselves from being in Christ. While I do believe in the perseverance of the believer, it would more aptly be named the preservation of believers due to the perseverance of Christ...He which hath done a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ...Philippians 1:6.
It's easy enough to establish that God seals believers once saved. Once one understands this, passages that seem to suggest otherwise can be easily understood. As I'm sure you know, a basic rule of Bible study is to understand what is unclear by what is clear, and not the other way around.
Stand firm is a general exhortation. It would include all who have access to the letter. That would now include us though I doubt Paul would have known at the time.
Paul wouldn't know who is saved or not. He might have made some functional judgments, but I'm of the opinion he believed Demas was a believer who turned out not to be.
Paul wouldn't know who is saved or not. He might have made some functional judgments, but I'm of the opinion he believed Demas was a believer who turned out not to be.
Just to get you ready for @PaulThomson, please consider the following verses in context where "faith" is spoken of in 1Peter. If you've already done so, please pardon my intrusion and carry on.
NKJ 1 Pet. 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
NKJ 1 Pet. 1:7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
NKJ 1 Pet. 1:9 receiving the end of your faith-- the salvation of your souls.
NKJ 1 Pet. 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
NKJ 1 Pet. 5:9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
NKJ 1 Pet. 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
NKJ 1 Pet. 1:7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
NKJ 1 Pet. 1:9 receiving the end of your faith-- the salvation of your souls.
NKJ 1 Pet. 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
NKJ 1 Pet. 5:9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
- Look at a few different translations of 5:9 and ponder why there are differences in how they translate "the faith".
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[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
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Immediate context:
Back to the beginning and proceeding forth:
You mentioned what is clear vs. what is unclear. What's unclear about who Paul is writing to here and what his concern was for them?
I think it's important to let all Scripture say what it says and to figure out how to make sense of it. I'm very familiar with teachings of eternal security, and the construct once-saved-always-saved and doctrines of justification and sanctification and rewards and such that are used to impose other Scriptures over Scriptures like these. I had them drilled into me for substantial parts of thousands of hours under intense teaching. Now I just study Scripture.
BTW, in response to your question about "in Christ" - once again I just let Scripture explain it, so I've highlighted a couple references to the phrase above in blue. Since it's mostly a phrase Paul uses, I think a partial if not good explanation of it is hereinabove - especially in 3:26-29, but also in the context of what Paul is speaking about in Galatians to his brethren and his little children.
NKJ Galatians 4:31-5:1 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
Back to the beginning and proceeding forth:
NKJ Galatians 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:
NKJ Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away (BDAG Lexicon: transferring, changing, deserting) so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different (another) gospel,
NKJ Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain-- if indeed it was in vain?
NKJ Galatians 3:15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
NKJ Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
NKJ Galatians 4:6-7 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
NKJ Galatians 4:8-11 But then, indeed, when you did not know God (= in the past), you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
NKJ Galatians 4:12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all.
NKJ Galatians 4:14-21 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? 17 They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them. 18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you. 19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, 20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you. 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
NKJ Galatians 4:31-5:1 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. 7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
Stopping here for now.
You mentioned what is clear vs. what is unclear. What's unclear about who Paul is writing to here and what his concern was for them?
I think it's important to let all Scripture say what it says and to figure out how to make sense of it. I'm very familiar with teachings of eternal security, and the construct once-saved-always-saved and doctrines of justification and sanctification and rewards and such that are used to impose other Scriptures over Scriptures like these. I had them drilled into me for substantial parts of thousands of hours under intense teaching. Now I just study Scripture.
BTW, in response to your question about "in Christ" - once again I just let Scripture explain it, so I've highlighted a couple references to the phrase above in blue. Since it's mostly a phrase Paul uses, I think a partial if not good explanation of it is hereinabove - especially in 3:26-29, but also in the context of what Paul is speaking about in Galatians to his brethren and his little children.
So, Paul in Galatians is used to explain Peter in 1Peter even though Peter is clearly speaking of his audience's faith and this verse in Galatians is speaking of justification and not guarding like 1Peter.
FWIW, I'm glad to see you picking up this concept (even though you're using it improperly). There is a fairly substantial amount of Scripture in the New Covenant Writings that does speak of Jesus Christ's faith, faithfulness, and The Faith authored by Him (what we believe) that has been handed down to His Holy Ones. It's fairly well recognized that some of these verses are likely translated incorrectly even though the Greek can be legitimately translated as "faith in Christ" or "faith of Christ".
The problem with what you're doing is that 1Peter is not one of those places the language matches what you're attempting to do with it. Another problem is that it's not good interpretation to transpose from one document to another as you are doing.
I'll await your X emoji once again.
FWIW, I'm glad to see you picking up this concept (even though you're using it improperly). There is a fairly substantial amount of Scripture in the New Covenant Writings that does speak of Jesus Christ's faith, faithfulness, and The Faith authored by Him (what we believe) that has been handed down to His Holy Ones. It's fairly well recognized that some of these verses are likely translated incorrectly even though the Greek can be legitimately translated as "faith in Christ" or "faith of Christ".
The problem with what you're doing is that 1Peter is not one of those places the language matches what you're attempting to do with it. Another problem is that it's not good interpretation to transpose from one document to another as you are doing.
I'll await your X emoji once again.
Thus my saying what I highlighted in Galatians is "partial..." Surely you didn't gather from what I only posted from Galatians that I was giving you some input from more than Galatians.
Agree. I'd use it to argue against an improper view of security. But I know where this goes, and here it is:
Are you asking if I want to discuss eternal security with someone who hasn't answered whether or not Paul wrote Galatians to those he considered to be in Christ?
What's up with most here that they don't like to focus on Scripture in context, but would rather skip over such to instead discuss general systematic theological models?
Agree. I'd use it to argue against an improper view of security. But I know where this goes, and here it is:
Are you asking if I want to discuss eternal security with someone who hasn't answered whether or not Paul wrote Galatians to those he considered to be in Christ?
What's up with most here that they don't like to focus on Scripture in context, but would rather skip over such to instead discuss general systematic theological models?
Wait - we've already been through all this before, haven't we?
God moved within the biblical scribes, and the biblical scribes alone, to write exactly what He wanted written; the way He wanted it written. This transcended any and all (individual) thought processes, background, and cultural aspects/factors. The Bible was intended by God to be written and to be perceived as one single, completely integrated book, from beginning to end, such that it can function as its own cross-reference, dictionary, glossary of terms, and instruction manual (among other things). Were that not true, we would be a lot of trouble indeed for a multitude of reasons. That is why we were given admonitions and instructions in the Bible as to how He wants it interpreted, irrespective of any external factors. The key to knowing that we have interpreted the Bible correctly and have found biblical truth is when we are able to harmonize scripture with scripture throughout the whole Bible for a given doctrine, without finding any contradictions to it.
So, while I won't red X you (at least not this time lol), neither do I agree with your methodology for, or perception of, correct biblical interpretation.
God moved within the biblical scribes, and the biblical scribes alone, to write exactly what He wanted written; the way He wanted it written. This transcended any and all (individual) thought processes, background, and cultural aspects/factors. The Bible was intended by God to be written and to be perceived as one single, completely integrated book, from beginning to end, such that it can function as its own cross-reference, dictionary, glossary of terms, and instruction manual (among other things). Were that not true, we would be a lot of trouble indeed for a multitude of reasons. That is why we were given admonitions and instructions in the Bible as to how He wants it interpreted, irrespective of any external factors. The key to knowing that we have interpreted the Bible correctly and have found biblical truth is when we are able to harmonize scripture with scripture throughout the whole Bible for a given doctrine, without finding any contradictions to it.
So, while I won't red X you (at least not this time lol), neither do I agree with your methodology for, or perception of, correct biblical interpretation.
I did answer. You either didn't like my answer or ignored it. And I was trying to save some time. I'm not really big on long posts. So while I do respect that you want to develop longer context, knowing the answer to my question allows me to know whether to bow out of the conversation or not.
You are free to answer or not, but my question to you is the very question Paul asks the Galatians...having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
And I'm fine with context. But if you don't understand purpose, you may not be understanding context.
So up to you...does Paul believe an individual is saved by grace but kept by personal endeavor?
You are free to answer or not, but my question to you is the very question Paul asks the Galatians...having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
And I'm fine with context. But if you don't understand purpose, you may not be understanding context.
So up to you...does Paul believe an individual is saved by grace but kept by personal endeavor?
Do you accept that the Greek word pistis can mean either faith or faithfulness?
A.
16 Having known that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This is one possible translation that is grammatically and semantically plausible and makes sense, without Jesus doing the believing instead of us.
B.
16 Having known that a man is not justified by the works the law requires/teaches but by the faith Jesus Christ requires/teaches, even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith Christ requires/teaches, and not by the works the law requires/teaches: for by the works the law requires/teaches shall no flesh be justified.
This is another grammatically and semantically plausible translation that makes sense, and does not have Jesus doing the believing instead of us.
C.
16 Having known that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith that Jesus Christ exercises, even we believed in Jesus Christ, [yet not we, but Christ in us believed in Himself], that we might be justified by the faith that Jesus Christ exercises, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This appears to be your understanding of the text.
So, Christ imposed His own faith upon us to believe in Himself through us, so that we could become permanently righteous in status, so that he could then withhold that same faith from us much of the time, so that we might often fall into sin and might often be unrighteously in practice.
A.
16 Having known that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This is one possible translation that is grammatically and semantically plausible and makes sense, without Jesus doing the believing instead of us.
B.
16 Having known that a man is not justified by the works the law requires/teaches but by the faith Jesus Christ requires/teaches, even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith Christ requires/teaches, and not by the works the law requires/teaches: for by the works the law requires/teaches shall no flesh be justified.
This is another grammatically and semantically plausible translation that makes sense, and does not have Jesus doing the believing instead of us.
C.
16 Having known that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith that Jesus Christ exercises, even we believed in Jesus Christ, [yet not we, but Christ in us believed in Himself], that we might be justified by the faith that Jesus Christ exercises, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This appears to be your understanding of the text.
So, Christ imposed His own faith upon us to believe in Himself through us, so that we could become permanently righteous in status, so that he could then withhold that same faith from us much of the time, so that we might often fall into sin and might often be unrighteously in practice.
If the verses Calvinists choose to call clear, and by which other verses that disagree with those verses are clarified, are the truly clear verses, why do calvinists end up with so many logical contradictions in their theology that need to be swept under a rug imprinted with "divine mystery".
Maybe the verses they are assuming to be clear are not the clear ones. Do you have any theory on why, if God was careful to choose every word each scribe would write, He produced so many ambiguous texts that allow for a variety of viable interpretations?
Maybe the verses they are assuming to be clear are not the clear ones. Do you have any theory on why, if God was careful to choose every word each scribe would write, He produced so many ambiguous texts that allow for a variety of viable interpretations?