Did God Ordain This?

[p_rehbein]

For Bro. Maxwell:

If you see this. PennEd and I have been discussing something which I think would be of interest to you given your comment here. That is that God predestined some and gave free will to others.

There were some, He foreknew, if given free will would always choose the flesh, and there were some that He foreknew would, if given free will, be strong enough to choose to serve Him. And some would never choose Him in either case. This is not Biblical Truth, we were simply discussing it, for it is a way to justify the fact that there is Scriptural evidence to support both beliefs. Predestination......Free Will.

If that is the actual case, then this guy who did this horrible crime would definitely fit in the latter group. Reason of mental defect, or simply having given into the evil of life, choosing darkness over Light. Anyway, wanted to share that with you, don't know if you saw here we were discussing it.

It is clear from Scripture, in my opinion, that a Christian can believe in predestination, and a Christian can believe in free will. Neither belief excludes one from salvation...........

 

[maxwel]

For Bro. Maxwell:

If you see this. PennEd and I have been discussing something which I think would be of interest to you given your comment here. That is that God predestined some and gave free will to others.

There were some, He foreknew, if given free will would always choose the flesh, and there were some that He foreknew would, if given free will, be strong enough to choose to serve Him. And some would never choose Him in either case. This is not Biblical Truth, we were simply discussing it, for it is a way to justify the fact that there is Scriptural evidence to support both beliefs. Predestination......Free Will.

If that is the actual case, then this guy who did this horrible crime would definitely fit in the latter group. Reason of mental defect, or simply having given into the evil of life, choosing darkness over Light. Anyway, wanted to share that with you, don't know if you saw here we were discussing it.

It is clear from Scripture, in my opinion, that a Christian can believe in predestination, and a Christian can believe in free will. Neither belief excludes one from salvation...........

First of all, I really appreciate all the thoughtful, and extremely polite discussion of this controversial topic.

There are various ways of attempting to reconcile predestination and free will.
I don't think I'd agree with this one as the best solution, but I think there may be ways these seemingly opposing views can be harmonized while still remaining biblically sound.

But at the end of the day it's still an in-house debate, and I consider people on both sides to be my brothers.
Well, except for the girls.
I really don't think of them as my brothers.


...

 

[preacher4truth]

For Bro. Maxwell:

If you see this. PennEd and I have been discussing something which I think would be of interest to you given your comment here. That is that God predestined some and gave free will to others.

There were some, He foreknew, if given free will would always choose the flesh, and there were some that He foreknew would, if given free will, be strong enough to choose to serve Him. And some would never choose Him in either case. This is not Biblical Truth, we were simply discussing it, for it is a way to justify the fact that there is Scriptural evidence to support both beliefs. Predestination......Free Will.

If that is the actual case, then this guy who did this horrible crime would definitely fit in the latter group. Reason of mental defect, or simply having given into the evil of life, choosing darkness over Light. Anyway, wanted to share that with you, don't know if you saw here we were discussing it.

It is clear from Scripture, in my opinion, that a Christian can believe in predestination, and a Christian can believe in free will. Neither belief excludes one from salvation...........

That's really cute!

But it's unbiblical.

No man is saved via a choice of their will, John 1:13, thus you are both incorrect.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I have read on a couple of Threads here that nothing happens in this world without God having ordained it. I do not believe that. I believe the Scripture being used is being misunderstood. But that is my opinion. So I decided to give it some thought and see what others believe.

First, Scripture

Jesus said:

Luke 17:2) It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. (punishment for harming a child)

Matthew 19:13) Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15) And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence

Matthew 18:10) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(and, again)

Matthew 18:1) At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2) And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3) And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5) And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Now, it may just be me, but I'm fairly certain that Christ (God the Son) has great love for little children, and will dole out severe punishment to anyone who harms one of them.

CONSIDER THIS:

(excerpt)

Authorities say a Colorado man has been arrested on three counts of 1st degree murder and three counts of tampering with physical evidence in connection with the disappearance of his pregnant wife and their two young children.

The search for Shanann Watts, 34, and her daughters Bella, 4, and Celeste, 3, made national headlines this week after her husband, Chris Watts, pleaded for his family's safe return in a interview broadcast on KUSA.

The Frederick Police Department said late Wednesday that they had taken Chris Watts into custody. According to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, the mother and her two daughters were killed on Monday.

(found here)

Colorado Man Arrested For Murder of Wife and Two Kids ...

SO, MY QUESTION IS:

DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ORDAINED THE MURDER OF THIS WOMAN AND HER TWO CHILDREN?

Did God ordain His own Son’s crucifixion?
Did God ordain Joseph’s slavery?

If you answer yes, then why question the OP?

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh no, the Calvinist's have arrived!

 

[maxwel]

Oh no, the Calvinist's have arrived!

They were predestined to arrive...

but I have the free will to leave.

...

 

[oldethennew]

God/Yeshua, is The Great Ordainer' of All!!!

 

[maxwel]

They were predestined to arrive...

but I have the free will to leave.

...

Oh my.

GraceAndTruth gave me a little clock icon to show my predestination joke was "old."

I know.

I know it wasn't very funny.

I'm very sorry.

But that joke was foreordained before the foundations of the world;
it was ordained to come into the world at just that moment...

I was merely the chosen vessel.



...

 

[pottersclay]

yup.........its your OPINION.

The "God loves everybody" doctrine is not only a fallacy but easily proven from scripture that God does NOT love everybody.

A Creator without a plan for His creation? The CROSS was predestined!! Acts 2: 22-23

God put it in their hearts to execute HIS will........Rev 17:17
Also, God put it in PHaroh's heart to NOT let the people go.
Also God can turn the heart of the king wherever He chooses
And God hated Esau in the womb before he could do any right or wrong Micah 1
..........and tho Esau sought for repentance with tears it was not given to him Heb 12:17

Bad things happen to good people just as good things happen to bad people.........we live in a fallen word with a bunch of fallen folks who have no hearts, brains or morals and are as described in Mark 7: 22-23
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, [a]fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries
22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, [a]envy, slander, [b]pride and foolishness.
23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

Where to begin with this sorry post??? Saint,..anit I can't tell. And you got a thumbs up for this????
Your arrogance speaks louder than your lack of knowledge.

John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only son.

Esau I hate ....well God said it as a type not as a person. Esau gave up his birth right for a bowl of stew, he'd rather fill his belly than endure for his Blessing. Are you a Esau?

Pharohs heart was harden by the thought of God not by God . Each time Moses mentioned God he got more angry towards God .
Now at the end God gave him a hardness I'll give you that. That picture of hardness is a prophecy yet to come in the end times.

To say that God does not love everybody is to say he is a liar.......that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus said love your enemies, even the ones that use and abuse you. Not call fire down on them.

Sorry couldn't let this post go. Better rethink what you call a fallacy.

 

[p_rehbein]

Some things/Scriptures just can't be posted enough I guess

1 Timothy 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[p_rehbein]

Oh no, the Calvinist's have arrived!

So. what took so long? The Thread was open to all.........

Be sure to vote

 

[p_rehbein]

That's really cute!

But it's unbiblical.

No man is saved via a choice of their will, John 1:13, thus you are both incorrect.

Thankfully, we do not seek or need your approval.........

By the by, Can't help but notice you did not vote in the Poll?

 

[zeroturbulence]

I have read on a couple of Threads here that nothing happens in this world without God having ordained it. I do not believe that. I believe the Scripture being used is being misunderstood. But that is my opinion. So I decided to give it some thought and see what others believe.

First, Scripture

Jesus said:

Luke 17:2) It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. (punishment for harming a child)

Matthew 19:13) Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15) And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence

Matthew 18:10) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(and, again)

Matthew 18:1) At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2) And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3) And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5) And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Now, it may just be me, but I'm fairly certain that Christ (God the Son) has great love for little children, and will dole out severe punishment to anyone who harms one of them.

CONSIDER THIS:

(excerpt)

Authorities say a Colorado man has been arrested on three counts of 1st degree murder and three counts of tampering with physical evidence in connection with the disappearance of his pregnant wife and their two young children.

The search for Shanann Watts, 34, and her daughters Bella, 4, and Celeste, 3, made national headlines this week after her husband, Chris Watts, pleaded for his family's safe return in a interview broadcast on KUSA.

The Frederick Police Department said late Wednesday that they had taken Chris Watts into custody. According to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, the mother and her two daughters were killed on Monday.

(found here)

Colorado Man Arrested For Murder of Wife and Two Kids ...

SO, MY QUESTION IS:

DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ORDAINED THE MURDER OF THIS WOMAN AND HER TWO CHILDREN?

Im not sure whether to answer yes or no to this, but I would at least consider this:

God ordained Jesus to be scourged by a cat o' nine tails from head to toe.

He ordained Jesus to be mocked, hit, spat on and made to wear a crown of thorns which dug into his scalp.

He ordained Jesus to carry a heaven wooden cross that would have bumped against his thorny crown and while he was bleeding and sore and some accounts say his nose was broken too.

He ordained Jesus to be nailed to a cross and hung to die a gruesome death.

And Jesus was innocent.

 

[p_rehbein]

All of that is true...............although, He, God the Father is the same as He, God the Son.........

May or may not make a difference.......but is "self sacrifice" different from the ordaining the murder of others?
Or, is that just a weird analogy?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Im not sure whether to answer yes or no to this, but I would at least consider this:

God ordained Jesus to be scourged by a cat o' nine tails from head to toe.

He ordained Jesus to be mocked, hit, spat on and made to wear a crown of thorns which dug into his scalp.

He ordained Jesus to carry a heaven wooden cross that would have bumped against his thorny crown and while he was bleeding and sore and some accounts say his nose was broken too.

He ordained Jesus to be nailed to a cross and hung to die a gruesome death.

And Jesus was innocent.

Yes, God ordained and it was to fulfilll the prophecy about Messiah.
Exactly Jesus was/is innocent, the sacrificial Lamb of God (the lamb had to be without blemish) because only what is pure could be sacrificed to satisfy the wrath of God toward sin. Isaiah 53


Yes the cross was ordained/predestined Acts 2:23

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Im not sure whether to answer yes or no to this, but I would at least consider this:

God ordained Jesus to be scourged by a cat o' nine tails from head to toe.

He ordained Jesus to be mocked, hit, spat on and made to wear a crown of thorns which dug into his scalp.

He ordained Jesus to carry a heaven wooden cross that would have bumped against his thorny crown and while he was bleeding and sore and some accounts say his nose was broken too.

He ordained Jesus to be nailed to a cross and hung to die a gruesome death.

And Jesus was innocent.

yes

however, Jesus was God's solution to our sin problem

none of us can claim such

did you know that Jesus actually prayed and asked His Father to 'let this cup pass?' meaning if another way to save sinners was possible, please make it so (you prob know that...just refreshing memory for folks here)

that sure looks like Jesus was asking for another choice.

we are not robots and why was Jesus successful in fulfilling God's plan? BECAUSE He obeyed...He was not forced to obey. In all things, scripture states, he was tested as are we and yet He never sinned...this also seems to indicate Jesus had a choice

39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.”
41He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.
44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground. Luke 22

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15

 

[p_rehbein]

I think you meant "no" to the Poll question, right?

 

[maxwel]

May or may not make a difference.......but is "self sacrifice" different from the ordaining the murder of others?
Or, is that just a weird analogy?

Emotion / Reason / & Murder

Certain emotional issues cause our emotions, quite naturally, to lose sight of cold logic.
This is normal, and sometimes it can be a good thing - so it's not always bad.

A very "unjust murder" is one of these very emotional things.
So let's step back, and think a bit more about murder.

Unjust Death of a Martyr:
1. Most of us would agree that the death of a martyr, though unjust, could be to the glory of God.
2. A martyr, dying for the gospel, could through the testimony of his death bring many others to Christ.
3. A martyr, dying for the gospel, could through the testimony of his death be an example to believers for millennia to come.
4. A martyr, dying for the gospel, could through the testimony of his death, and his perfect peace and courage, show the great and amazing glory of God.
5. A martyr, dying for the gospel, could simply alter circumstances, or soften unseen hearts, and thereby bring many to Christ, and accomplish a greater good.
6. The salvation of souls, and the testimony of God's glory through the sacrifice of a servant, are FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the mortal life of that servant... especially since it is a great honor to die for our Lord, and that martyr goes straight into the presence of God.
7. GREATER GOOD: In a nutshell, we have the scenario of God allowing a faithful servant to give his mortal life, because God knows his death will bring about greater goods, greater goods that can ONLY be accomplished in this way.
8. Most of us would agree that the death of a martyr, though carried out through a mortal act of injustice, could be planned and ordained by God, because it is for his glory, and it brings about a greater good.

Unjust Death of Others:
1. If we agree that the murder of a martyr could be ordained by God, BECAUSE it is for God's glory, and it brings about a greater good, then HOW PRECISELY ARE WE CERTAIN that someone else's murder may not ALSO be ordained for the glory of God, to bring about a greater good?
2. How do we know?
3. How do we know that some tragedy is not precisely ordained to bring about some greater good, and the ultimate glory of God?
4. How exactly do we know?
5. If God would allow his own beloved servants to die for his greater purposes, then certainly he would allow the unrepentant (who destiny themselves for destruction) to also die for his greater purposes. And if we have now accounted for the deaths of both the saved and the lost... then who is left?
No one.
6. Because we cannot understand a thing does not mean our infinite and omniscient God ALSO fails to understand it.
7. Because we cannot see a plan does not mean our infinite and omniscient God HAS no plan.

Conclusion:
1. There are an infinite number of reasons God might allow some terrible tragedy in order bring about a greater good, and glorify God.
2. We could even sit here, and easily guess at dozens of possible reasons... though most likely, we will never really know.

...

 

[p_rehbein]

Conclusion:
1. There are an infinite number of reasons God might allow some terrible tragedy in order bring about a greater good, and glorify God.
2. We could even sit here, and easily guess at dozens of possible reasons... though most likely, we will never really know.

A conundrum for sure..........however........one day this glass darkly we are looking through will be removed, and we will ALL see clearly, and know..........

I have to trust my heart........and what I have read in Scripture, and prayer...........and that leads me to believe that God does not wish to see people unjustly murdered...........

Martyrs...........Did God ordain their martyrdom? Or, because of their unjust murder, did He use it for greater good?

As I said, it's a conundrum for sure. I just have to trust my heart..........

 

[p_rehbein]

Oh, to clarify..........my comment prior about self sacrifice was concerning God/Christ.......not someone else.......

About God ordaining the death of Christ...........see...........God the Father and God the Son are ONE.............so, did God ordain His own death to establish His salvation plan for all mankind? Yes, 'tis true, God can not die...........unless, He took upon Himself the form of man.....

hmm

anyhoo