Daniel 9 Already Fulfilled

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GaryA

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Matt 24: 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Careful study will show that there is a 3.5-year period of time associated with the description in verse 29 after the word 'days' - we call it the [time of the] 'Two Witnesses'.

More information:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
 

GaryA

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The KJV actually supports me better, Thank you

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Where does sacrifice and burnt offering take place? Yes, the most holy place

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What is It? Of course, it is where the sacrifice and burnt offering takes place. or the "wing of the temple" or the "most holy place"

What is this called? An abomination that makes desolate.

Thank you for helping support my view
'he' x 3 = the Lord Jesus Christ

It is not talking about the AoD.
 

GaryA

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I have been studying this for a few decades.
You have been studying the things I am trying to get you to consider for a few decades???

I think not...

My mind is wide open.. If you can convince me by showing me anything that makes sense. then I will listen.
Your mind is not wide open - it is shut tight. You want to be 'convinced' even before you 'consider'. And, you have to 'listen' before you 'consider'. And, you are not listening in the slightest.
 

PennEd

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'he' x 3 = the Lord Jesus Christ

It is not talking about the AoD.
Incorrect. The passage EG states in Daniel aligns with this one from 2 Thessalonians.

Unless you’re trying to say Jesus is the man of sin, son of perdition?

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ Speaking of which, in the LXX of Daniel 9:27 it uses the following phrase:


βδέλυγμα βδέλυγμα bdelygma
g946 [abomination - noun]
N-NSN


τῶν ὁ ho
g3588 [definite article]
T-GPF


ἐρημώσεων ἐρήμωσις erēmōsis
g2050 [desolation / desolations - plural - noun]
N-GPF



-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/dan/9/27/t_concl_859027 [Septuagint / LXX tab... under "TOOLS"]
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Careful study will show that there is a 3.5-year period of time associated with the description in verse 29 after the word 'days' - we call it the [time of the] 'Two Witnesses'.

More information:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
I do not kn ow where you get your info. But I would find another source of information.

The two witnesses are killed and left for dead. Then risen. This rising causes many to repent and come to christ. it is one of the any things that will happen during this time that will cause a great many to come to christ.

But it does nto end the tribulation. You can’t study prophecy in the OT anf the NT and think this
 

Everlasting-Grace

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'he' x 3 = the Lord Jesus Christ

It is not talking about the AoD.
It’s obvious you have a reading issue. I am going to cut this off. It is a waste of time. And there is a time you just have to shake the dust off your feet.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Incorrect. The passage EG states in Daniel aligns with this one from 2 Thessalonians.

Unless you’re trying to say Jesus is the man of sin, son of perdition?

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Amen.

It also says it in Dan 9

Vs 26 And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

This is the prince, it is not Jesus. Jesus did not place an abomination in the holy place
 

GaryA

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Yahshua

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Apologies to everyone who asked me questions directly. Crazy week. Working through posts now...
 

Yahshua

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so you would say we are still in the great tribulation that started in back then?
Yes, from my position the great tribulation was/is a punishment upon the Jews for rejecting the Son (Luke 21), so when I read the Olivet Discourse text it's with this context. So looking at the prophecy with a view of the last nearly two thousand years in mind, I believe the time of great tribulation upon the Jews is "JUST nearing its end" or "has JUST ended" (with "just" being a relative term concerning the past two thousand or so years).

Luke 21:24 summarizes that the Jews would suffer the following:

- The Death of the Jews
- The Scattering of the Jews
- Jerusalem would be overrun/controlled by others (who are not Jews)

...which is to continue until "the time of the Gentiles" is complete. Romans 11 explains that the fall of the Jews coincides with the blessing and salvation of the Gentiles (who believe), and when the full number of them comes in the punishment ends. When we look at history, all three of the punishments have been happening since 70 AD but started to reach their most severe during a time when the Papacy literally ruled the world through kings. All of it was bad but this was what it was the worst.

...and only recently has begun to end or change. The following is how I interpret the time of great tribulation [upon the Jews] across history and where I believe we are in that tribulation:

bellcurve.jpg
I believe we are currently living through the fulfillment of Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, Luke 21:25-26:

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:25
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:25-26
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


I believe we are currently witnessing the distress of nations and upheavals as the established order is shaken. I also tend to interpret the phrase literally: "The powers of [oranus] shall be shaken". oranus = Uranus. The powers of Uranus are shaken. The atomic era began with the shaking of Uranium-235.

do you believe 2 thessalonians 2:3 is future or past? the man of sin standing in the temple proclaiming to be God.
this seems to be the pope
I fully believe the man of lawlessness was/is the office of the Papacy as the office fits the prophetic description and history confirms many things the office of the Pope has said and done with what scripture prophesied. Below is my interpretation of the longer passage in light of history.


2 Thess 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


I believe that the falling away is the same as those early believers adopting pagan influences that were mixed in with the original faith. The apostles and Paul warned about earnestly fighting to keep the original faith because people were sneaking in and offering up another gospel.


2 Thess 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


In the early history of the Papacy, there are official writings and statements from the office claiming the Pope is "god on earth" and "the vicar of Christ" (i.e., "Christ vicariously"), and also that the pope holds the place of God on earth with full authority to change times (gregorian calendar) and laws (commandments). Next, when we read "sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is god" I interpret this in light of the truth revealed by Messiah and Paul that the body is the true temple of God. So if all the world worshipped the pope at one time in history this was the equivalent of him sitting in the temple of God (i.e., the people's hearts).


2 Thess 2:5
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?



Paul had been warning the early believers that this would happen. Again, recall the New Testament letters warning of things like "messages from angels" and "worship of angels".


2 Thess 2:6
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


...And now you know what is holding back all of this that the man of sin is revealed in his own time. Notice, Paul didn't mention the Holy Spirit but mentioned other things and concludes with "and now you know..." meaning he just revealed in the previous verses what's "withholding" the revealing of the man of sin: The event of the falling away.


2 Thess 2:7
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.



The covert iniquity was already in full swing even in Paul's day. Again, this was what they were warning communities about: folks not really part of the faith spreading another gospel and other lies. The covert [spirit of] iniquity (i.e., "satan" who deceives the whole world) is who is causing this and who must be removed so that the man of sin is finally revealed for who he is because until he is, deception will continue...the deception that was released in the first century before the destruction of 70 AD, per the prophecy of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:4-5)

[And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.]


2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:



When the covert spirit of iniquity is finally removed then the man of sin will be revealed and destroyed. Notice that this coincides with the detail we're given in Revelation 19:11-21 of Messiah destroying the beast with the sword from his mouth and bounding satan for 1000 years. So the spirit of iniquity being removed = the binding of satan into the pit. I don't believe this has happened yet. We're still living in a time of covert iniquity abounding and the man of sin (Papacy) doing all he can, while concealed.
 

Yahshua

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There’s a whole lot more to support a dispensational view than Daniel 9.
Here’s just one.

This is what Jesus read when asked to read Scripture at the Synagogue:

Isaiah 61:
61 “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

He then told them this prophecy was fulfilled in their hearing.

Problem is, there’s no period after “acceptable year of the Lord”. There is a comma. Jesus stopped mid sentence. Thankfully!!!!
That comma has lasted over 2000 years.

Because the rest of the passage reads,

And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”
I agree that there are a great many passages that are partially fulfilled. Several more come to mind. But none of those prophetic passages mention anything about time if I correctly recall.

To me when it comes to a prophecy specifically marking out time - like the 70 Weeks prophecy or the "time, times, and a half" or "42 months" or "in the fourth generation..." and other such time-based prophecies - it defeats the purpose of the Almighty detailing time at all if He doesn't stick to what He says. It makes Him a liar.

For example, if you believe in a 7-year tribulation, what's to say the Almighty doesn't decide to stop the clock just before the 7th year which lasts 20 more years before the clock concludes? It's all up in the air and nothing can be relied upon.
 

Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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Who were the kings of the earth who begged the rocks to fall on them to keep then from the wrath to come?

What kings did this in 70 AD?
sorry, but your explanation does not cover what I spoke of
To share why historicists may believe this event happened in 70 AD; let's take Revelation 6, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Acts 1:

In Revelation 5 we have the six seals being broken by Messiah:

1) Conquerer w/bow & a crown - (many claim this is the antichrist spirit)
2) Rider with large sword takes peace
3) Rider with scales
4) Death with pale horse
5) Servants slain for testifying
6) Wrath of the Lamb
7) Sealing of 144k


Notice the beginning events of the Olivet Discourse from Matthew 24:

1) Deception by many claiming Christ - (this is literally the antichrist spirit)
2) Wars and rumors of wars
3) Famine
4) Pestilences - Death
5) Specifically, the Apostles would be killed
6) Abomination of desolation
7) Days cut short for the sake of The elect


Notice the same order of events from Luke 21:

1) Deception by many claiming Christ - (this is literally the antichrist spirit)
2) Wars and rumors of wars
3) Famine
4) Pestilences - Death
5) Specifically, the Apostles would be killed
6) Jerusalem is surrounded by armies (desolation neigh)
7) ...


Put them together...

1) Conquerer = the antichrist spirit = Deception
2) Rider with large sword = War
3) Rider with scales = Famine
4) Death = Pestilence
5) Servants slain = The Martyrdom of Apostles


It is a biblical law that a testimony of two or more witnesses establishes truth. We have Revelation 6, Matthew 24, and Luke 21 agree with each other on most of the events. This means the remaining events are at least linked:


6) Abomination of desolation = Jerusalem surrounded by armies = Wrath of the Lamb
7) The Sealed 144k = The Elect


The events of Revelation 6 establish each unique event, while Matthew and Luke link to those events in agreement listing the same order. But it's the 5th event that anchors us in time: The martyrdom of the apostles. The Messiah specifically prophesied what would happen to His apostles in detail, so from a historicist's perspective this severely limits us to when this event could've taken place.

History records that the apostles were killed in the first century AD several decades before the destruction of 70 AD. This means that the first four seals had to break before the apostles were killed...and that the seal that breaks after the apostles are killed is the same event that Messiah prophesies to happen after His apostles are killed during the Olivet Discourse.

I believe this explains why the 6th seal is called "Wrath of the Lamb". Wrath connotes extreme anger. Why would the Messiah be extremely angry after the breaking of the 5th seal if not for His beloved apostles being murdered for testifying of Him and the gospel?


----

Last point... notice that the passage says everyone will beg for the rocks to fall on them not just the kings. This is an event that affects all of the people.

Revelation 6:15-17
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.

16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”



Interestingly enough, notice what Messiah said to the women who were weeping for Him while He was carrying His cross:

Luke 23:28-30
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.


- Weep for yourselves
- Daughters of Jerusalem
- Blessed are the barren
- Blessed will be those [women] who never give birth
- Then "they" will begin to say fall on us...cover us


Messiah is repeating the same refrain from Olivet Discourse where in Luke He mentions Jerusalem being surrounded by an army for its destruction, following the martyrdom of His Apostles.


Luke 21:23
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


- The surrounding of the army marks the wrath upon these people.
- Bless are those who are not pregnant or nursing. why? Because they will be able to flee the destruction more easily.


Matthew 24:19-21
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


All of these passages are linked together in context, with the martyrdom of the apostles as our anchor in time. So the major event that occurred after the martyrdom of Messiah's apostles was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, kickstarting the time of tribulation upon the Jews...but only after the elect of Israel was sealed.
 

Inquisitor

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So there have been multiple threads debating this view, but I just wanted to share the reasons why many of us believe the prophecies of Daniel 9 have already been fulfilled.

For background and context, I take a Historicist view of eschatology which is the traditional view of the protestant reformers before the counter-reformation offered up the two opposing views of preterism and futurism (with futurism being the current view held by many modern Christians).

A quick and dirty summary of each:

- Preterism = All endtime prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD. The Messiah is currently ruling on His throne.

- Historicism = Endtime prophecies are fulfilled progressively throughout human history, proving that God steers human events.

- Futurism = All endtime prophecies will be fulfilled in the future after a gap period called the church age.


So, generally speaking...

- Preterists take the position that the Messiah currently is ruling the world from His throne in heaven.

- Historicists take the position that we have been in the end times for the last 2k years; everything happening is laid out by God's end-time prophecies.

- Futurists take the position that after the church is raptured away, the clock will continue and the end times will begin.


As I mentioned, the traditional view of eschatology by the protestant reformers was Historicism and their argument was that the Almighty is sovereign, and proof of His sovereignty is knowing exactly what will happen from beginning to end. There is no scenario where He doesn't know, so any prophecy He shares - especially prophecy that principally involves time - will be a complete timeline of events.

For example, The Almighty gave King Nebuchadnezzar this dream in Daniel 2:

View attachment 258545

Everyone agrees that this was a visual representation of a timeline the Almighty gave to King Neb, starting with Babylon and ending with The Messiah's kingdom. So, it's a complete timeline of human history, with each section representing a world-ruling kingdom until the toes are smashed by the stone from heaven (Messiah).

- Babylon
- Medo-Persia
- Macedonia // Greece
- Rome
- 10 Smaller Mixed Kingdoms
- Messiah's Kingdom

And per the magnificence of the Almighty's imagery, even the characteristics we see from the statue were representative of the kingdoms that rule:

1) Gold was the economy of Babylon

2) There were two arms folded. Medo-Persia was a partnership of two kingdoms, and silver was their economy.

3) With Greece, humanity literally entered into the bronze age

4) The time of Rome was known as the Iron Age...and there were even two legs of the empire: The Byzantine Empire and the Western Roman Empire. Also, notice that this section is the longest section of the statue. And in fulfillment, The Roman Empire experienced by far the longest run.

5) Next, humanity reaches the ten toes which are a mix of clay and iron. Meanwhile, revelation speaks of ten smaller kingdoms prophesied to emerge in the end times. So if we follow the pattern that The Almighty has given, then the ten smaller kingdoms will have characteristics of the Roman Empire and characteristics of "Clay" (the original Hebrew word used was "Arab"). The ten smaller kingdoms will be mixtures of Roman and Arabic influences (Algebra or "Al' jabr ", the basis of math, being one example). Also, the prophecy says the iron/clay mixture never completely combines, meaning that the people of the ten kingdoms will never truly be unified.

NOTE: At no point was this statue described to break until the toes were smashed by the heavenly stone, representing an unbroken timeline of human history as we go from one kingdom age to the next until Messiah.

----

Now, as history will show, both preterism and futurism views were developed by the Catholic Church to counter historicism. The reason why historicism was countered was because the reformers began identifying the Catholic Church as The Great Harlot and the Papacy as the Beast of the Sea. So, during the counter-reformation, two newer views of eschatology began to spread. This brings us to Daniel 9.


Daniel 9

The preterist view holds that all of Daniel 9:24-27 (i.e., The 70 Weeks prophecy) was fulfilled in 70 AD, while the futurist view holds that only 69 weeks have been fulfilled followed by our current pause/break of an indetermate amount of time (never once mentioned to happen by The Almighty or Messiah or any angel), with the 70th week beginning the time of Great Tribulation after the break. If we were to lay out these views using King Neb's statue to represent the timeline each view would look like this:


Preterism - "Humanity is currently in the post-stone period called the kingdom of God, where Messiah rules from heaven."

View attachment 258551


Futurism - "Humanity is currently in a gap period called the Church Age, and will be raptured away before the end times begin."
View attachment 258549


Meanwhile, historicists believe that all 70 weeks were fulfilled in 70 AD, leading to the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the people, (both of which are the "desolations" prophesied in Daniel 9:27), and that the land would be devoid of the people who are supposed to be there until the return of the Messiah when He establishes His eternal kingdom on earth. Historicists also believe that the Great Tribulation equates to the time in human history when the nations of the world collectively hated and persecuted the Jews as "murderers of Christ", spanning 1,260 years and directly involving the Papacy.

----

I think this is a good enough intro. Let me know if you have any questions.

Blessings.
You omitted Partial Preterism?
 

Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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You omitted Partial Preterism?
Oh, I took partial preterism to be a camp within Preterism. I only know of the primary position. If I'm mistaken by all means share its specific position like others have theirs.