context....CONtext.........CONTEXT

[GaryA]

Why would Jesus talk about the past as if it was future? What is the abomination of desolation and when did it occur? (The one Jesus is talking about)

The real actual bona fide biblical Abomination of Desolation ('AoD') is described in Daniel 11. It was instigated by Antiochus Epiphanes in 167 B.C.

There is a reference to the AoD in Daniel 12. (It is referring back to Daniel 11.)

The 'similar' words that you read in Daniel 9 are not referring to the AoD.

The only other 'specific' mention to the AoD is in the Matthew and Mark accounts of the Olivet Discourse.

The first thing we do not know with absolute certainty is exactly what Jesus actually said during the Olivet Discourse - something closer to what the Matthew and Mark accounts say - or, something closer to what the Luke account says. I personally believe that Jesus said something closer to what the Luke account says.

What Jesus was pointing the Jew-Christians to was spelled-out very plainly in the Luke account.

 

[GaryA]

The following was copied from this post: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-be-in-the-future.200137/page-29#post-4603180

The discussion involved Matthew 24.

Verses 16-20 comprise the instructions that the Jew-Christians were to follow according to the recognition of what is being illustrated in verse 15.

'When ye therefore shall see...'

[then]

'follow these instructions'

(And don't waste any time doing it.)

There was a three-year seige before the Romans took the city and destroyed the temple.

The Jew-Christians followed the instructions before/as the seige began.

What did they 'see' - before/as the seige began - three years before the temple was ever touched or destroyed - that they instantly recognized as being what was illustrated in verse 15?

hint:

( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

 

[GaryA]

To repeat:

The Jew-Christians followed the instructions before/as the seige began. ( not three years later )

Three years before any 'physical' AOD could possibly have taken place - the Christians headed for the mountains.

They saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

They understood perfectly.


If you understand what the parenthetical phrase means - then, you know the real actual bona fide AOD occurred in 167 B.C. and not in circa 70 A.D. - and, that there is no second-parallel version of it that occurred later in history.

 

[GaryA]

From: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/post-trib-rapture.209486/page-12#post-5012911

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. It is not a grammar issue. (as it is written)

Yes - in the grammar - as it is written - it is suggesting a future event. However, it is being said (to the Jews) in a 'wink' + "you know what I mean" manner.

A modern-day example:

I say to you - "...when you see planes hit the twin towers..." - suggesting a future event. But, you are well-aware that that event is already in the historical past. So, you understand that I am connecting something with the past event to the future event I am foretelling.

What I am trying to communicate about the future event is not that planes will hit the twin towers - it is the something that I am connecting with the past event which you know has already occurred.

The Matthew and Mark accounts of the Olivet Discourse 'encrypt' the information that the Luke account simply states in straight-forward simplicity.

Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20, and Luke 21:20-24 are all referring to the same events in the same time frame.

In effect, what is written in the Matthew and Mark accounts is saying "when you see [what happened to Jerusalem at the AOD] about to happen again..."

What happened to Jerusalem at the AOD in 167 B.C.?

1) Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.
2) Jerusalem was desolated by an army.

What happened to Jerusalem circa 70 A.D.?

1) Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.
2) Jerusalem was desolated by an army.

The real actual bona fide AOD is intrinsically tied to Daniel 11. We are told in no uncertain terms exactly when the AOD occurred. We can match the account in Daniel 11 to history. The real actual bona fide AOD was already past history on the date of the Olivet Discourse.

And, the Jews knew this very well - and, knew exactly what it meant. (What was written in the Matthew and Mark accounts of the Olivet Discourse.)

The parenthetical statements are the 'wink' + "you know what I mean"...

 

[GaryA]

From: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...he-modern-church.201091/page-181#post-4711062

If you look at the statement itself in grammatical terms - then, yes - it is suggesting a future event. But, that is not what I am talking about.

The whole statement, in conceptual terms, is being used as an indirect reference.

It would be a similar thing if someone wrote "when you see the twin towers fall (whoso readeth, let him understand)" as a method of pointing [your attention] to the 9/11 'event' and what transpired during that time.

You already know full well that what is being written about has already occurred.

The statement is not actually intended for the purpose of predicting a future event (because the reader knows with certainty that it is in the past); rather, it intends to direct your attention to the "details" associated with the 'event' that has been referenced.

The fact that you know with certainty an event has occurred - combined with the parenthetical phrase - "clues you in" to the alternate meaning accomplished through an indirect reference.

The true intent and meaning of the statement is not what is "on the face of it"; rather, it is a redirection through an indirect reference.

It is not as complicated as it sounds; only, I am trying to illustrate the idea with required detail to get it across.

 

[GaryA]

Why would Jesus talk about the past as if it was future?

Let me attempt to clarify something...

Jesus is not talking about the past as if it was future.

Jesus is talking about a future event. However, He is not saying that the past 'event' (the AoD) will occur again.

He is talking about the [then] future events of circa 70 A.D. - using the AoD as a comparative reference.

What He is talking about actually occurring in the future is what occurred at the time of the AoD.

The prophetic statement was not saying that the AoD was going to occur in the future.

 

[GaryA]

The prophetic statement was not saying that the AoD was going to occur in the future.

And, this is why so many "have it wrong" and "can't get it right" - because, they insist on dismissing / ignoring / overlooking the parenthetical statements in the Matthew and Mark accounts of the Olivet Discourse instead of seeking to understand what those statements are trying to tell them.

Those statements are there for a reason. They have meaning. They are important. Please "listen" to what they are trying to tell you.