Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#141
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#141
Absolutely said:
Pretrib rapture for sure.
Click to expand...
The fundamental reason for the pre-trib Rapture is that the Tribulation (a period of wrath) has nothing to do with the Church (saved from wrath). This is illustrated by the words of Christ to the church at Philadelphia: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [testing], which shall come upon all the world, to try [test] them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#142
Mar 28, 2019
2,055
1,524
113
#142
Nehemiah6 said:
The fundamental reason for the pre-trib Rapture is that the Tribulation (a period of wrath) has nothing to do with the Church (saved from wrath). This is illustrated by the words of Christ to the church at Philadelphia: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [testing], which shall come upon all the world, to try [test] them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)
Click to expand...
that was to church of philadelphia, are we to think it has nothing to do with them and all to do with us?

the tribulation mentioned to one of the churches was only days long

has kept the word of his patience... this is why i believe that if there is a pre-trib rapture its only for those who like you quoted have kept the word. not the disobedient worldly crowd.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#143
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#143
Lanolin said:
Yea lot of gymnastics and bolding and CAPS going on here. By people trying to wrestle scripture into sayinng what they want it to mean.

Scripture say itself that Jesus is coming after satan.
Click to expand...
The text refers to a number of things:

V.1 - the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges [noun] unto Him (this is our Rapture event [noun])

V.2 - Paul is essentially saying, "don't let anyone convince you that the day of the Lord is present" (the time period involving judgments and very negative things--"Woe unto you who desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light... Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?" Amos 5:18,20)

V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [this "and" means it is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)] the man of sin be revealed..."


This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence as 1Th4-5 stated.

Here is the color-coded words to illustrate the 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

1)
the departure first
and the man of sin
be revealed

2)
what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that
he
might be revealed IN HIS TIME

3)
only he who is now [presently] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]
and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked
be revealed


All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold on the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE"
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#144
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#144
^ and the problem comes in when people conflate the item named in verse 1 with that of the [separate] subject of verse 2[&3]; and also by mis-defining the phrase "the day of the Lord" to incorrectly mean "a singular 24-hr day" or limiting it to the time of His Second Coming to the earth [His "RETURN"], when the point of His standing to "JUDGE" commences well before that point in the chronology (it involves all that the "man of sin" will do during those entire 7 years/the tribulation period/70th Wk)
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#145
Mar 28, 2019
2,055
1,524
113
#145
TheDivineWatermark said:
The text refers to a number of things:

V.1 - the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges [noun] unto Him (this is our Rapture event [noun])

V.2 - Paul is essentially saying, "don't let anyone convince you that the day of the Lord is present" (the time period involving judgments and very negative things--"Woe unto you who desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light... Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?" Amos 5:18,20)

V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [this "and" means it is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)] the man of sin be revealed..."


This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence as 1Th4-5 stated.

Here is the color-coded words to illustrate the 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

1)
the departure first
and the man of sin
be revealed

2)
what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that
he
might be revealed IN HIS TIME

3)
only he who is now [presently] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]
and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked
be revealed


All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold on the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE"
Click to expand...
i admit in post-trib setting 2 thessalonians 2 means nothing. if day of the Lord was a positive thing, they should be excited about seeing it instead of being shaken in mind and worried. makes more sense they expected pre-trib rapture missed it and now are scared they are left in the day of the Lord.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#146
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#146
Melach said:
has kept the word of his patience... this is why i believe that if there is a pre-trib rapture its only for those who like you quoted have kept the word. not the disobedient worldly crowd.
Click to expand...
It is my understanding that the phrase in Rev3:10 "and have kept the word of My patience" or "and have kept the word of the patience of Me" likely refers to what is also [similarly] referred to in 2 Thessalonians 3:5-6, where Paul talks about "But the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of the Christ" and then says, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition [/teaching] which he received of us." (just like is what is talked about in both 2Th2:15 [in contrast to 2Th2:2] and 2Th1:10b "the testimony of us to you"--i.e. "that body of truth")
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#147
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#147
Melach said:
i admit in post-trib setting 2 thessalonians 2 means nothing. if day of the Lord was a positive thing, they should be excited about seeing it instead of being shaken in mind and worried. makes more sense they expected pre-trib rapture missed it and now are scared they are left in the day of the Lord.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but the way I see it is that the only thing on their distraught minds is (what the text actually declares) "...[as purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT". This, and not "rapture" (nor "missing the rapture") was actually what was distressing them. They were under no such delusion that "the rapture happened and we missed it" (they were not that dumb! absolutely no one had gone missing! all they had to do was look around, had that been their distress! No. It wasn't that.) They WERE however presently under/enduring great "tribulations and persecutions" per 2Th1:4! (it made perfect sense to them, in their present EXPERIENCES!)

This is why Paul is telling them WHY "the day of the Lord" IS NOT present (and won't be until ONE THING takes place *FIRST*) Paul is the one bringing back into their thinking, the CORRECTIVE (to their distraught minds): the subject of WHEN our Rapture takes place in relation [time-wise] TO that of the time period known as "the Day of the Lord" (in which "the man of sin" WILL be "present" IN HIS TIME, and will do ALL he is slated to do therein ["for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"])
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#148
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#148
Lanolin said:
Theres nothing to be afraid of, ...we may go through the fire but since we are saved it wont even hurt us..like Daniels friends in the firery furnace. Not even singed! Our God is great.
Click to expand...
And yet, where was Daniel in all of this ^ ?
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#149
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#149
TheDivineWatermark said:
It is my understanding that the phrase in Rev3:10 "and have kept the word of My patience" or "and have kept the word of the patience of Me" likely refers to what is also [similarly] referred to in 2 Thessalonians 3:5-6, where Paul talks about "But the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of the Christ" and then says, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition [/teaching] which he received of us." (just like is what is talked about in both 2Th2:15 [in contrast to 2Th2:2] and 2Th1:10b "the testimony of us to you"--i.e. "that body of truth")
Click to expand...
...and speaking to that point,

this is the same "G5281" word used in both Rev3:10 and 2Th3:5-6 ^ , but from OUR perspective (below):

Romans 8:18-27 (esp. vv.22-25) -

"Future Glory

(2 Corinthians 5:1-10)
[...<snip>...]

22 For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails together until now. 23 And not only so, but we ourselves, even having the firstfruit of the Spirit, also groan ourselves in ourselves, awaiting divine adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in this hope we were saved; but hope being seen is no hope; for does anyone hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we await in patience [G5281]".

____________

So, where it refers to "in this hope," I believe that speaks especially to that which pertains to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN], and here is what one author says with regard to that: "[...] and yet not a syllable about the real position of the Church [the Church which is His body]--its calling, its standing, its hopes, its privileges! And [in those certain authors/commentaries/etc] not a word about Israel's future! A complete ignoring, or at best a thorough alienation, of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David! The whole body of prophetic teaching subjected to a system of spiritualizing, falsely so called, whereby Israel is robbed of its proper portion, and Christians dragged down to an earthly level" (CH Mackintosh)



Presently, He Himself is "seated/sitting" in patience (this is not to say He is doing nothing ;) , but that this speaks to those eschatological purposes not yet in effect, i.e. when He will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Rev4-5] and so forth). "Which IN HIS TIMES He SHALL [future] SHEW [openly manifest], who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (one of only TWO verses in all of the epistles to mention "King" [both referring to "future"])
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#150
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#150
Melach said:
do you believe Jesus will end sin when He returns?
Click to expand...
I believe your question here pertains to what is stated in Hebrews 9:28. I made a post a pretty long time ago (on this verse), and before I present all of that, I would just like to say two things regarding that:

--the distinction between "sinS" (Romans 1 - 5:11), and "Sin" (Romans 5:12 - chpt 8)

--I see the phrasing of Hebrews 9:28 to look sort of like the following (and I can come back to this later, maybe tomorrow or Monday, but just putting this "phrasing" here, for you to consider):



[quoting Hebrews 9:28]

--so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many,

--will appear [G3708 - ophthēsetai passive] a second time apart from sin

--to those awaiting Him for salvation.


[or, in the ylt]

--so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many,

--a second time apart from a sin-offering shall appear [G3708 - ophthēsetai passive],

--to those waiting for him -- to salvation!



I'll try to get back at a later time to comment on this, and how I see it. I'm off for tonight (I hope). Rest well, y'all :D
 
J

justpassinthrough

Senior Member
#151
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
#151
Nehemiah6 said:
The fundamental reason for the pre-trib Rapture is that the Tribulation (a period of wrath) has nothing to do with the Church (saved from wrath). This is illustrated by the words of Christ to the church at Philadelphia: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [testing], which shall come upon all the world, to try [test] them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)
Click to expand...

These three things take place at the coming of the Lord.


  1. Resurrection
  2. Rapture
  3. Destruction of the wicked, especially the antichrist!

All three events take place at the coming of the Lord.


  • For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


  1. And the dead in Christ will rise first: Resurrection
  2. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them: Rapture
  3. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them...And they shall not escape.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


Paul even makes it more specific in the second letter to the Thessalonians, about the destruction of the antichrist at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8



The antichrist is actually destroyed by the brightness of His coming.






JLB
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#152
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#152
justpassinthrough said:
These three things take place at the coming of the Lord.
  1. Resurrection
  2. Rapture
  3. Destruction of the wicked, especially the antichrist!
All three events take place at the coming of the Lord.
Click to expand...
The word "coming" (parousia) can apply to either the Resurrection/Rapture or the Second Coming. And those two events are separated by AT LEAST seven years.
 
R

Rasputin_OZ

Guest
#154
#154
All I try to state is that Hope and prayer to be taken away before bad things happen.

But be prepared for evil times and persecutuons.

Many are experiencing what they feel are end times now. I hope they weren't expecting a rapture before their eyes were taken out and hands cut off. and ultimately burned.

Prepare people. Persecutions will start.
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#155
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#155
justpassinthrough said:
Brother you need to use scripture not opinion.


My post and scriptures come from 1 Thessalonians:4:15


What do you disagree with with my post.


I never mentioned pre trib or post trib, just the facts the scriptures plainly teach.


Three distinct things occur at the coming of the Lord.



  1. Resurrection
  2. Rapture
  3. Destruction of the wicked, especially the antichrist!

All three events take place at the coming of the Lord.


  • For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


  1. And the dead in Christ will rise first: Resurrection
  2. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them: Rapture
  3. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them...And they shall not escape.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


Paul even makes it more specific in the second letter to the Thessalonians, about the destruction of the antichrist at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8



The antichrist is actually destroyed by the brightness of His coming.



Three distinct and irrefutable things that take place at His coming: In order.


  1. The Resurrection
  2. The Rapture
  3. The destruction of the antichrist




JPT
Click to expand...
The rapture and the second coming are 2 different things.
He comes for his bride first.

The 5 foolish virgins follow as a martyred innumerable number.
They are in heaven early on in the gt.
Rev 14 has a gathering.
So in your placement,you have 2 groups PRECEEDING the general resurrection of saint in 1 thes 4.
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#157
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#157
Rasputin_OZ said:
All I try to state is that Hope and prayer to be taken away before bad things happen.

But be prepared for evil times and persecutuons.

Many are experiencing what they feel are end times now. I hope they weren't expecting a rapture before their eyes were taken out and hands cut off. and ultimately burned.

Prepare people. Persecutions will start.
Click to expand...
The 5 wise watch,wait,and look for Jesus,not a false Christ on a white horse.
You have not proven your position.
Postrib rapture ,which is your position,is poorly thought out.
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#158
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#158
Lanolin said:
Yea lot of gymnastics and bolding and CAPS going on here. By people trying to wrestle scripture into sayinng what they want it to mean.

Scripture say itself that Jesus is coming after satan. You know....to destroy him! Hes also coming for the saints, to be resurrected, those who died in him, and to gather us who are alive and remain.

Ok think of it like this. Theres a fire in thats going to destroy the house, and Jesus is the rescuer of anyone in the burning building. Who sends the fire, well God does. He warned everyone about it. All those who have died in christ are saved and and those who havent and remain are going to be changed instantly. Those who arent saved will perish.

Theres nothing to be afraid of, ...we may go through the fire but since we are saved it wont even hurt us..like Daniels friends in the firery furnace. Not even singed! Our God is great.
Click to expand...
Um,no,Jesus tells the arsonists to light it.
His bride is in there.
He gets her out first.
As He did lot.
Jesus even used a burning house to tell us that we,like Lot, are removed before the judgement.
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#159
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#159
Melach said:
that was to church of philadelphia, are we to think it has nothing to do with them and all to do with us?

the tribulation mentioned to one of the churches was only days long

has kept the word of his patience... this is why i believe that if there is a pre-trib rapture its only for those who like you quoted have kept the word. not the disobedient worldly crowd.
Click to expand...
Yes,the 5 foolish virgins were christians.
Virgin = clean,pure,undefiled.

Ironically,they were foolish,but had the foresight to expect him at any moment. Imminent return. No bogey man inbetween. Lol
 
J

justpassinthrough

Senior Member
#160
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
#160
Nehemiah6 said:
The word "coming" (parousia) can apply to either the Resurrection/Rapture or the Second Coming. And those two events are separated by AT LEAST seven years.
Click to expand...

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-15



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.


Do you believe this is the first coming or second coming?




JLB
 
You must log in or register to reply here.