Christ is God

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TJ12

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SoulWeaver said:
I am not going to enter futile arguments. Internet is great. Please do your research. No offense meant.
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Matthew says that the centurion met with Jesus face to face and spoke with him. Luke says that actually, the centurion only communicated with Jesus via his representatives. Both accounts are correct.

"So Jesus said, ...'I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.'" (John 8:28-29)

This is exactly why Jesus can say, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
 
SoulWeaver

SoulWeaver

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TJ12 said:
Matthew says that the centurion met with Jesus face to face and spoke with him. Luke says that actually, the centurion only communicated with Jesus via his representatives. Both accounts are correct.

"So Jesus said, ...'I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.'" (John 8:28-29)

This is exactly why Jesus can say, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
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For the same reason, you only speak what is on your mind and heart.
You don't speak what is not in your mind and heart. Your mind/heart is you, and your physical existence that expresses them is also you. And no one can know what's inside of you, unless you speak (word) or do something in the outside world (right arm). No one knows Father (inner being) except through the Son (manifestation). Father is like the invisible heart of God's being... no one knows Him unless He interacts with the world. That interacting is called Son.
That's what Son is for Father and why they are called Father and Son. One originates the other, and they are one in another. They are one being. And their essence is love (Holy Spirit). But God's one being.
Jesus is God's appearing, whether in form of Word, action (Arm of the Lord) or physical body (Jesus Christ of Nazareth).
So many people try to dissect Father away from the Son. That's NOT what the Bible teaches...
 
SoulWeaver

SoulWeaver

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TJ12 said:
In a typical father/son arrangement, doesn't the father originate the son, and not the other way around?
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I did not say it was the other way around.
Father fathers the Son. I used "originate" as transitive verb. Anyhow, sorry for causing confusion. Should've said "Father fathers".

TJ12 said:
Scripture for this?
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John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
 
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TJ12

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SoulWeaver said:
I did not say it was the other way around.
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Gotcha. You meant 'the Father originates the Son.' In a typical father/son arrangement, isn't the father older than the son?


SoulWeaver said:
that they may be one, as we are...that they may be one, even as we are one:
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Does this mean that Jesus' disciples are "one being" just as the Father and Son are "one being"?
 
Dino246

Dino246

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TJ12 said:
Gotcha. You meant 'the Father originates the Son.' In a typical father/son arrangement, isn't the father older than the son?
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Is God typified by a human relationship, or is the human relationship typified by God? Which came first?

Your posts are replete with word games and questions of semantics. That usually doesn't go over well around here, fyi. :)
 
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TJ12

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Dino246 said:
Is God typified by a human relationship, or is the human relationship typified by God? Which came first?
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My point is that such anthropomorphisms were evidently used for a reason. SoulWeaver seems to be saying that the Father and Son are exempt from the temporal aspect of such a relationship, if I understand him correctly.

Dino246 said:
Your posts are replete with word games and questions of semantics. That usually doesn't go over well around here, fyi. :)
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Please explain.
 
Dino246

Dino246

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TJ12 said:
My point is that such anthropomorphisms were evidently used for a reason. SoulWeaver seems to be saying that the Father and Son are exempt from the temporal aspect of such a relationship, if I understand him correctly.
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Jesus identifies God as His Father and Himself as the Son. There is no temporality implied in His identification; that would have to be imposed on the text from the human nature of father/son relationships. As God is not human, one should be cautious about applying to rigorously an attribute of a human relationship to Him.

TJ12 said:
Please explain.
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I re-read your recent posts; it appears I misread what you were saying in a couple of the. My apologies; please ignore my comment.
 
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TJ12

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Dino246 said:
Jesus identifies God as His Father and Himself as the Son. There is no temporality implied in His identification; that would have to be imposed on the text from the human nature of father/son relationships. As God is not human, one should be cautious about applying to rigorously an attribute of a human relationship to Him.
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While I fully agree with you that "one should be cautious about applying to rigorously an attribute of a human relationship to Him", I'm not so sure such an integral aspect of a father/son relationship should be just dismissed out of hand either. Consider, if there was an intention to make the temporal aspect of the human father/son relationship carry over to the God the Father and God's Son, how would that be conveyed in your view? Honestly curious of your opinion.


Dino246 said:
I re-read your recent posts; it appears I misread what you were saying in a couple of the. My apologies; please ignore my comment.
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No worries!
 
posthuman

posthuman

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TJ12 said:
Agreed! In much the same way, it seems that the actual resurrecting of Jesus was accomplished by his Father: "God raised him from the dead." (Acts 2:24) "
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which proves that Christ is God, because He said "I will raise it up" and He said "I lay it down and I take it up again"

He does not lie; He & the Father are One
 
posthuman

posthuman

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For thus says the LORD of hosts: ​
“He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” ​
says the LORD.​
“Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you."​
(Zechariah 2:8-11) ​
​
He sends Himself, to dwell in the midst of a people called from many nations, Jew & Gentile alike, making them His own people.

the LORD sends Himself, to deliver
 
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TJ12

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posthuman said:
which proves that Christ is God, because He said "I will raise it up" and He said "I lay it down and I take it up again"
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"As Jesus was on his way...a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years, but no one could heal her. She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped...Jesus said, 'Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me.'...In the presence of all the people, she told why she had touched him and how she had been instantly healed. Then he said to her, 'Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace.'" (Luke 8:42-48)

Did Jesus heal the woman?
 
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garee

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SoulWeaver said:
Many. They have been posted all over this thread. Particularly, I listed some of my main reasons in this post



Okay, I am happy you brought this up.
What I put in red, is what not exactly what the Scripture says - it is your conclusion about it. It may seem like a logical conclusion but you base that conclusion on a certain view of Jesus and Father and their relationship.

To really understand the verse, we need the correct view of Jesus first. We need to not forget that Jesus is not only the earthly manifestation in human form. Jesus is also called Word of God, Arm of the Lord, Alpha and Omega. Jesus is everything that Father said (Word) or did (Arm). Alpha and Omega is used only for Jesus in the Bible, not for Father. Father God has no beginning, and no end, but the Word was always with God, and was God, even before Father God voiced "let there be light". Father God is not manifested. This is why the Scripture says that "no one can see God and live". But "Son" is Father manifested in the created world, showing Himself in time and space and having beginning and end. Jesus is, simply put, manifestation of the Father, so Father can make Himself known. Jesus is "Father shown".

Pay attention what Jesus replies when the disciples ask Jesus to "show them the Father":
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I [Father] been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me [Father], Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father [I have already shown Myself to you]; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
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Jesus is the Son of God shown by the father .

Have I [Son ] been so long time with you

. He has no literal face to behold with eyes . God is not a man created from the dust.

Three things make up the essence of one God .

1)God is Spirit as the father of all life.

2)God is Light and not only can he create it.

3)God is Love and not just that he exercises Love as a work of faith working in us to both will and perform the good pleasure of God
 
G

garee

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TJ12 said:
"Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." (1 Corinthians 1:24)
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Yes the the power that worked in the Son on man, Jesus the prophet apostle. Sent to do the will of the father and not the will of his own corrupted flesh. Jesus said of his own flesh it profits for zero .What did profit is the spiritual strength the father worked in Jesus to both will and do his good pleasure .Together as the power of one God they finished the work .
 
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TJ12

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posthuman said:
Go to page 1, and read the thread.
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I've have skimmed through much of it. I'm just asking for clarification vis-a-vis the passages I was discussing.

For example, you said, "He & the Father are One". Does this mean that you view Jesus and the healed woman as One, seeing that they both played a part in healing her? If not, how is that situation different?
 
posthuman

posthuman

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TJ12 said:
the healed woman
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Leviticus 15:25-30
'If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, other than at the time of her [customary] impurity, or if it runs beyond her [usual time of] impurity, all the days of her unclean discharge shall be as the days of her [customary] impurity. She [shall be] unclean. Every bed on which she lies all the days of her discharge shall be to her as the bed of her impurity; and whatever she sits on shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her impurity. Whoever touches those things shall be unclean; he shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. 'But if she is cleansed of her discharge, then she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take for herself two turtledoves or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting. Then the priest shall offer the one [as] a sin offering and the other [as] a burnt offering, and the priest shall make atonement for her before the LORD for the discharge of her uncleanness.

Why does this woman with a discharge of blood know that she will be made clean by touching the garment of Christ? That is, contact with His garment will make her clean, rather than her uncleanness defiling Him?

That knowledge is her faith, and that is how she was healed. See Genesis 3

See Haggai 2:10-13 - - she demonstrates that Christ is God; He it is that sanctifies - - see Matthew 23:16-22
 
SoulWeaver

SoulWeaver

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Psalms 144:5 Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down :coffee:: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.
Micah 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place :coffee:, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
God came down... Not some angel
 
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