Christ is God

[trofimus]

"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."
J 6:46

Oneness destroyed again. Oneness must read "No one has seen the Father, except the Father (who took another name - son, but is still the same person), who is from Father, only He has seen the Father" -> nonsense

=====

But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”
J 8: 16

Oneness destroyed again. Jesus said He and Father are two witnesses as the Law also requires. He is not alone!!! Can it be clearer than this?

 

[Noose]

You are again running away from the point, trying to concentrate on "what does the right hand mean" and afraid of talking about what does it mean that Jesus is on the right hand of God (and therefore not that God).

When you say that Jesus is in the glory of God, you won nothing, because you have still the same problem, Jesus is not that God.

Right hand of God means glory/victory and Jesus demonstrating sonship to us is given victory over sin/death by the Father when He submitted to the authority of the Father. Likewise, He being our Father, gives us victory over sin/death and thus is is said we will sit on His right hand.

Rev 3:21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

 

[trofimus]

"But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
J 8: 26

Oneness destroyed again. Oneness must read it "I, who sent myself, am trustworthy and what I heard from myself, I tell the world".

It could continue on and on and on. Its no coincidence, that all protestants, all catholics, all orthodox believe in triunity. Its so clearly on every page of the Bible.

 

[Noose]

But you believe that Son is the Father, so how can he grasp his equality to Father. You must read it "equality to himself", even though the text is clear they are two.

Nope.
The son is the authority on earth and the Father is the authority in heaven.
Jesus is not from earth, He came to earth to be a servant.

 

[Noose]

"But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
J 8: 26

Oneness destroyed again. Oneness must read it "I, who sent myself, am trustworthy and what I heard from myself, I tell the world".

It could continue on and on and on. Its no coincidence, that all protestants, all catholics, all orthodox believe in triunity. Its so clearly on every page of the Bible.

It is funny they believe in something that they can't demonstrate just like you have failed to demonstrate. Not a single moment have you even tried to show how the Father and the son are two persons in one being. You can try and you'll always fail.

For example: You say that Jesus is seated on the right hand of God
We know Jesus is one being, is God who Jesus sits on the right hand a being also, or is He nothing?

You need to try and try harder. A self defeating position is no position at all. I'd understand if you said that you believe in it because majority believe in it.

 

[trofimus]

Noose, can you even invent some reading in other way than that Jesus and Father are two?

A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

"The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."

 

[trofimus]

It is funny they believe in something that they can't demonstrate just like you have failed to demonstrate. Not a single moment have you even tried to show how the Father and the son are two persons in one being. You can try and you'll always fail.

For example: You say that Jesus is seated on the right hand of God
We know Jesus is one being, is God who Jesus sits on the right hand a being also, or is He nothing?

You need to try and try harder. A self defeating position is no position at all. I'd understand if you said that you believe in it because majority believe in it.

Your argument makes no sense. Jesus, God the Son, sits on the right hand of God the Father. It does not matter that "right hand" is a symbol of something, there are still two persons involved. Like in tuns of other verses throughout the New Testament. I have no idea what can motivate you to dismiss so many verses.

 

[Noose]

Noose, can you even invent some reading in other way than that Jesus and Father are two?

A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

"The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."

All these verses you are quoting completely destroy your position, the reason you haven't answered a single question.

1. Is the Father a being? is the son a being? is the Holy spirit a being?
2. Is Jesus a being or 1/3 of a being?

 

[trofimus]

All these verses you are quoting completely destroy your position, the reason you haven't answered a single question.

1. Is the Father a being? is the son a being? is the Holy spirit a being?
2. Is Jesus a being or 1/3 of a being?

Define being.

Is Jesus alone or with Father?

 

[justpassinthrough]

[HR][/HR]~—•—○— CHALLENGE —○—•—~
[HR][/HR]
​

Show from scripture that Jesus the Messiah is God.

[HR][/HR]

i'll go first:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.​

(John 1:1-5) ​

​

The Christ is that Word, who pitched His tent with us, came to His own, but wasn't known by them, who loved me, and gave Himself! He is the Light and the Resurrection and the Life!


[HR][/HR]

OK, your turn! Go!!

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14

• looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

again



Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

• by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

JPT

 

[Noose]

Define being.

Is Jesus alone or with Father?

While you want to talk about terms, I am asking you about meanings.

You can use the definition that is used in the trinity doctrine.
Jesus (one person) is seated on the right hand of the Father (one person)- how are they one being?

 

[trofimus]

You can use the definition that is used in the trinity doctrine.
Jesus (one person) is seated on the right hand of the Father (one person)- how are they one being?

Being is not defined by one specific place. Certainly not spirit or God. Persons of the Trinity can be on various positions but they are one God.

Was jesus alone or with Father?

 

[justpassinthrough]

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

• But to the Son He says: You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

This is a quote from Zechariah 12 which says -


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

• who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth

Hebrews attributes this work of stretching out the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth to the Son.



The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of YHWH, speaking through the Old Testament Prophets, as Christ is speaking through Zechariah as the Lord, YHWH -


10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

• then they will look on Me whom they pierced.

Peter says it this way - the Spirit of Christ who was in them


10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

• the Spirit of Christ who was in them

As we see, it was the Spirit of Christ of said through Zechariah -


Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:


as well as -


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced.




JPT

 

[Noose]

Being is not defined by one specific place. Certainly not spirit or God. Persons of the Trinity can be on various positions but they are one God.

Was jesus alone or with Father?

Ok,
so at Jesus' baptism:
1. Was Jesus a being when He stood in the water getting baptized?
2. Was the father a being when He spoke from heaven?
3. Was the Holy spirit a being when He ascended from heaven?

 

[trofimus]

Ok,
so at Jesus' baptism:
1. Was Jesus a being when He stood in the water getting baptized?
2. Was the father a being when He spoke from heaven?
3. Was the Holy spirit a being when He ascended from heaven?

Depends on a definition. If you want to define each person as being, you can, I think.

If you want to go to more general level, you can define God as one being, composed of these three in complete unity.

Was jesus alone or with Father?

 

[Noose]

Depends on a definition. If you want to define each person as being, you can, I think.

If you want to go to more general level, you can define God as one being, composed of these three in complete unity.

Was jesus alone or with Father?

It is actually a problem for you because first you said that a being is not defined by a place and you also say the three make ONE being.
ONE means there's a definite boundary which if surpassed, we reach TWO. Definition of a being is the same, there's no definition of a being different for God and humans. Jesus being a full human, was already ONE being standing in the water getting baptized by another ONE being in John the baptist.

So, standing in the river already were two persons and two beings (Jesus & John). Fact.
My question is:
Is the Father a being when He is alone or must He be with Jesus and the Holy spirit for them to be ONE being?

 

[trofimus]

It is actually a problem for you because first you said that a being is not defined by a place and you also say the three make ONE being.
ONE means there's a definite boundary which if surpassed, we reach TWO. Definition of a being is the same, there's no definition of a being different for God and humans. Jesus being a full human, was already ONE being standing in the water getting baptized by another ONE being in John the baptist.

So, standing in the river already were two persons and two beings (Jesus & John). Fact.
My question is:
Is the Father a being when He is alone or must He be with Jesus and the Holy spirit for them to be ONE being?

You are limiting the definition of being for no reason. Why do you think that God has to have boundary? Why do you think that definition of God's being must be the same as of limited humans? You invent rules that do not exist.

To your question:
Depends on a definition you want to use for being. Son and Father are one complex being (God), Son and Father have their own will and are inteligent etc, so they can be defined as beings on a lower level of discernment, which would be very similar to say "entity" or "person", anyway.

Was Jesus alone or was he with Father?

 

[Noose]

Being is not defined by one specific place. Certainly not spirit or God. Persons of the Trinity can be on various positions but they are one God.

Was jesus alone or with Father?

A very sad state indeed.

When Jesus prayed to God, was He also praying to Himself now that the definition of God (according to you) must be the three, including Jesus making up one God?

 

[trofimus]

A very sad state indeed.

When Jesus prayed to God, was He also praying to Himself now that the definition of God (according to you) must be the three, including Jesus making up one God?

Jesus, the Son, was praying to Father. They are two different persons, so that one can speak and the other one can listen.

In your reading, one authority was speaking to non-existing authority (or to himself). Thats not what the text says.

 

[Noose]

You are limiting the definition of being for no reason. Why do you think that God has to have boundary? Why do you think that definition of God's being must be the same as of limited humans? You invent rules that do not exist.

To your question:
Depends on a definition you want to use for being. Son and Father are one complex being (God), Son and Father have their own will and are inteligent etc, so they can be defined as beings on a lower level of discernment, which would be very similar to say "entity" or "person", anyway.

Was Jesus alone or was he with Father?

I'm not limiting God in any way, i'm just focusing on Jesus because He was a human and therefor the definition of a being used for humans can be used for Jesus.

Surely for humans we can say one being or two beings;
Was Jesus one being when He was alone?