Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Yep, and I am sorry to repeat it again and again, it may another person have different respon

Particularly on question number 4 why ask protection from Mary, what is wrong with ask to Jesus directly?
I agree. Mary was a human no different than any other. She realized that she was God's hand maiden; she was His servant. Her ministry was to bring forth the savior. All honor and glory is to be given to that savior, Jesus. Jesus is the only mediator between God and man.

Praying to other human beings instead of Jesus is wrong.
 

Wansvic

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Nothing is wrong with asking Jesus directly but do you never ask anyone to pray for you?
Asking others to pray for us biblical. Paul asked others to pray for him. Why did he not just ask Jesus directly.

We are all part of the Body of Christ, including those who are in heaven.
“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)
When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.

Jesus said: “..whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn 11:26). Therefore those who truly believe in Jesus never die. They are still part of His body. Jesus does not have a body with dead bits in it.

Jesus uses the image of the vine, with us as the branches.
“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (John 15:4-7)
Are those saints who die cut off from Christ and thrown into the fire? Or are they still abiding in Christ and still bearing much fruit? Is Jesus still doing for them whatever they ask?

Mary and the Saints are mighty prayer warriors. Think about it. Are they hindered by such things as human failings and needs (such as sleep)? Those in heaven have no hindrances of such a nature, they are made perfect, so they are even mightier than those of us on earth.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective?

Mary in particular is a mighty intercessor because of her special relationship with Jesus. We can see this from two examples, one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament.

In 1 Kings 2:19-20 Bathsheba the mother of King Solomon petitions him on behalf of Adonijah.
So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. The king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right. Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.”
Solomon was open to granting her petition, although it did not end well because she asked for the wrong thing.

Mary is our King's mother and we believe equally open to hearing her petitions on our behalf. Of course we can approach the king directly, but perhaps those (Mary & Saints) in the very presence of God can make our requests more eloquently than we can. And it must please our King that we honour and value his mother just as he does.

Then consider the wedding at Cana in John’s gospel. They are short of wine; Mary sees the need and tells the servants “Do whatever he tells you” (Jn 2:5), and he responds. Mary was made aware of the need for wine. She then interceded on their behalf with her Son, who evidently was not going to respond to their need without her intercession. But because of her intercession, he then did respond.
Heb 4:15-16
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

There is a big difference in PRAYING to a deceased human for assistance, AND asking another human to PRAY to the Father in Jesus' name to have one's needs met.
 
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Bede

Guest
Thank again my brother bede, but I believe the dead in Christ are not the same as people who still physically life.

For example, like what you say on previous post, the death in Christ do not have ability to talk to us, if apostle Paul able to preach to us now, he may do so because he willing and longing to bear fruit. And I will come to the church where he preach. Even if he preach in Australia I may save money to buy ticket at least once in my life time.
Apostle Paul love every body and i believe if he able, he like to preach every day, he don't need money anymore, he don't need transportation anymore because he don't have physical body anymore.
Why don't he do?

I believe not because he is lazy or don't love people, but there is limitation for physically death in Christ.

I believe he not able to talk to us anymore nor hear us

Among the physically living Christian, yes we need to love each other, pray for each other, but though we are one body, it doesn't mean we know what other need, ones must tell me or call me if one need me to pray for them. How you don't know if your hand hurt? Look odd if you don't know when your hand hurt

We are the body of Christ one body but we don't know if one of the member of our body that live in Africa hurt

My brother the term we are body of Christ is only an analogy, don't take it literal.
Yes the death in Christ not stop being part of Christ body. But it not guaranty they able to preach to us or hear us

I don't know about you, my brother, but for me, only if the Bible or one of the apostle letter command us to pray to Mary I do not do it.

Let me repeat one more time. The fact apostle Paul not preach from church to church anymore, not prove he is lazy, but he not able to do it anymore.
The living may lazy, because our earthly body are old and weary, not spiritual body.
My brother Jackson, I think you are making a serious mistake here. You are saying that you will not believe unless God performs a sign for you - and a sign of your choosing. (sending Paul to preach).

Thomas tried that "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.” John 20:25. On that occasion Jesus was gracious and responded but he said to Thomas "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

Let me take you though a piece of scripture - the story of the Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31). Both are dead. The rich man is in Hades and the poor man is in the bosom of Abraham
Lk 16:24 And he [the rich man] called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Abraham is long dead by this time. He is being asked to do something by the rich man. Abraham is able to hear him and respond. But his answer is no because he cannot do it. He says there is an unbridgeable chasm between him and the rich man in Hades.

The rich man asks for something else
Lk 16:27-28 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’
[Note the KJV says I pray you father…]

Again Abraham declines his request, but this time he doesn't say he cannot do it, but that it would be futile. This shows that Saints not only hear our prayers but have some power to carry them out. on their own (though no doubt in God's power).

Another point is that Abraham says "‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.?” (vs 29-31),

Similarly we have the Church and the successors of the apostles. If you will not believe them why should you be convinced is someone [Paul] should come from the dead?

Moreover there are many well attested occasions of Mary appearing. She seems to be the prophet that God sends to his people at significant times in history. She has a constant message of repentance, a turning away from sin, if terrible disasters are to be avoided. But like Abraham suggested about the rich man warnings go unheeded.
 
B

Bede

Guest
The apostles consistently baptized in the name of the Lord. That is evidence enough for me that the apostles knew exactly what Jesus meant by His statement in Matthew.

You reference men's opinions.
The apostles consistently baptized in the name of the Lord. That is evidence enough for me that the apostles knew exactly what Jesus meant by His statement in Matthew.

You reference men's opinions.
You really are stubborn in disbelieving Jesus. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" .
I've given you an explanation of why the apostles referred to baptism in Jesus name. Your latest attempt seems to be claiming that Jesus didn't mean what he said, but the apostles knew better than to do what Jesus actually instructed.

You still have given no explanation as to why Jesus told them to baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" except that in your personal opinion he didn't mean what he said..
 
B

Bede

Guest
Heb 4:15-16
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

There is a big difference in PRAYING to a deceased human for assistance, AND asking another human to PRAY to the Father in Jesus' name to have one's needs met.
We are asking another human to pray to God for us. Or do you think those that go to heaven are not human?
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Mary is our King's mother and we believe equally open to hearing her petitions on our behalf. Of course we can approach the king directly, but perhaps those (Mary & Saints) in the very presence of God can make our requests more eloquently than we can. And it must please our King that we honour and value his mother just as he does.
Jesus gave no indication of being pleased about one's honour and value of His mother and/or brothers. But pointed people to the word of God. Jesus' made it clear that those who hear and do the word of God are His family. Praying to Mary is not biblical. We are told to pray to the Father in Jesus' name:

Luke 8:19-21
Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Luke 11:27-28
And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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You really are stubborn in disbelieving Jesus. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" .
I've given you an explanation of why the apostles referred to baptism in Jesus name. Your latest attempt seems to be claiming that Jesus didn't mean what he said, but the apostles knew better than to do what Jesus actually instructed.

You still have given no explanation as to why Jesus told them to baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" except that in your personal opinion he didn't mean what he said..
As Jesus stated a NAME was to be used.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14
 
B

Bede

Guest
As Jesus stated a NAME was to be used.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14
You seem to make a habit of regurgitating old points that heve been answered.

That great Catholic theologian St. Thomas Aquinas answered this very question.
Although there are three personal names of the three Persons, there is but one essential name. Now the Divine power which works in Baptism, pertains to the Essence; and therefore we say, "in the name," and not, "in the names."

He also quotes Mt 28:19
our Lord said (Matthew 28:19): "Going . . . teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
 
B

Bede

Guest
Jesus gave no indication of being pleased about one's honour and value of His mother and/or brothers.
Ex 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

Eph 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents (in the Lord), for this is right. “Honour your father and mother.

But pointed people to the word of God. Jesus' made it clear that those who hear and do the word of God are His family. Praying to Mary is not biblical. We are told to pray to the Father in Jesus' name:

Luke 8:19-21
Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Luke 11:27-28
And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
And who heard and kept the word of God more perfectly than Mary? No-one.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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We are asking another human to pray to God for us. Or do you think those that go to heaven are not human?
Jesus comment inferred that a human beings work of assisting others comes to an end when they leave this earth.
Paul also said it was needful for him to stay on earth to help people. This indicated that Paul's work on behalf of mankind would cease upon his death:

John 9:3
"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."

Phil 1:22-24
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
 
B

Bede

Guest
Jesus comment inferred that a human beings work of assisting others comes to an end when they leave this earth.
Paul also said it was needful for him to stay on earth to help people. This indicated that Paul's work on behalf of mankind would cease upon his death:

John 9:3
"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."
It's not night in heaven

Phil 1:22-24
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
The nature of the work changes.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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You seem to make a habit of regurgitating old points that heve been answered.

That great Catholic theologian St. Thomas Aquinas answered this very question.
Although there are three personal names of the three Persons, there is but one essential name. Now the Divine power which works in Baptism, pertains to the Essence; and therefore we say, "in the name," and not, "in the names."

He also quotes Mt 28:19
our Lord said (Matthew 28:19): "Going . . . teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
Your comments on the subject are not biblical. I have provided scripture that speaks to the truth about water baptism. Where did the great Catholic theologian get the information contained in his answer?

Concerning baptism, the Apostle Paul said Who was crucified for you? Indicating the name of Jesus was to be used while administering water baptism. He also said we are buried into Jesus' death in our baptism. Last I knew it was Jesus who died and was buried.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Ex 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

Eph 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents (in the Lord), for this is right. “Honour your father and mother.



And who heard and kept the word of God more perfectly than Mary? No-one.
You refuse to acknowledge the truth as seen in Jesus' words.
Mary was a regular human being; not divine as Catholics profess.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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My brother Jackson, I think you are making a serious mistake here. You are saying that you will not believe unless God performs a sign for you - and a sign of your choosing. (sending Paul to preach).

Thomas tried that "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.” John 20:25. On that occasion Jesus was gracious and responded but he said to Thomas "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

Let me take you though a piece of scripture - the story of the Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31). Both are dead. The rich man is in Hades and the poor man is in the bosom of Abraham
Lk 16:24 And he [the rich man] called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Abraham is long dead by this time. He is being asked to do something by the rich man. Abraham is able to hear him and respond. But his answer is no because he cannot do it. He says there is an unbridgeable chasm between him and the rich man in Hades.

The rich man asks for something else
Lk 16:27-28 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’
[Note the KJV says I pray you father…]

Again Abraham declines his request, but this time he doesn't say he cannot do it, but that it would be futile. This shows that Saints not only hear our prayers but have some power to carry them out. on their own (though no doubt in God's power).

Another point is that Abraham says "‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.?” (vs 29-31),

Similarly we have the Church and the successors of the apostles. If you will not believe them why should you be convinced is someone [Paul] should come from the dead?

Moreover there are many well attested occasions of Mary appearing. She seems to be the prophet that God sends to his people at significant times in history. She has a constant message of repentance, a turning away from sin, if terrible disasters are to be avoided. But like Abraham suggested about the rich man warnings go unheeded.
My brother bede,
1. I believe in Jesus though Paul never come and preach in my church. I am not like Thomas that only believe Jesus back to live if he put his finger on Jesus body.
But in this real story Jesus come to him and let him put his finger on Him, and make him believe His resurrection.

So yes in this story people change after see miracle,

On Jesus parable about Lazarus and abraham, seem to me this story is only parable.
In this story, Jesus talk about in general people don't believe though the dead back to live and tell what happen after life.

It happen to most people, but not for Thomas.

The story of abraham and Lazarus was a dialog between the physical dead abraham and physical dead rich man in hades not on earth.

This is big different, my brother. I able to talk to my living friend on earth that life next to me, it doesn't mean I able to talk to him when he die.
Abraham able to talk to the rich man in hades doesn't mean he able to talk to living human on earth.

Than you believe Mary appear to human on earth.

You also believe the appearance of the dead will not change living human, there is moses book, if living human do not believe Moses book, they not going to believe when the dead back to earth talk to them

Than why you believe Mary talk to living human?

Yes I never read on the Bible the Lord send abraham or other prophet back to life to preach. I don't know why you believe Mary back to earth as a prophet? On earth, Mary wasn't a prophet.
 
Jun 5, 2020
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Let talk about God's perspevtive, because we talking about bible here
Matt 6

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
In modern English, "mammon" is "money" or "wealth".
 
Jun 5, 2020
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Ex 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

Eph 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents (in the Lord), for this is right. “Honour your father and mother.



And who heard and kept the word of God more perfectly than Mary? No-one.
What is your basis for saying this? Mary was selected to give birth to Jesus, nothing more; how did she keep the Word of God so perfectly in your opinion?
 
B

Bede

Guest
Your comments on the subject are not biblical. I have provided scripture that speaks to the truth about water baptism. Where did the great Catholic theologian get the information contained in his answer?
Thomas Aquinas was explaining why Mt 28:19 uses "name" in the singular.

Concerning baptism, the Apostle Paul said Who was crucified for you? Indicating the name of Jesus was to be used while administering water baptism. He also said we are buried into Jesus' death in our baptism. Last I knew it was Jesus who died and was buried.
You have given your personal opinion on water baptism but you keep ignoring the plain words of Jesus "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" .
 
B

Bede

Guest
You refuse to acknowledge the truth as seen in Jesus' words.
Mary was a regular human being; not divine as Catholics profess.
That is a false accusation
Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach or profess that Mary is divine.