Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[GaryA]

Gary.


Perhaps you would quote the context of what I said, and so listen to the obvious sense of it?


For example, I have no idea what you believe, and I would not dream of inventing it in order to criticise you for it, because to do so would be to bear false witness. Nor - and this is important- would I listen to the hearsay of what your enemies say, I would do the ethical thing, and ask you what you believe first, and criticise only on that. Indeed until I know what you believe, how can I know whether it is appropriate to criticise? I might even agree. Would you expect any less of me, or any Christian? Or would you be happy to be condemned on hearsay?


So my comment was only to those who criticise, is that they should criticise catholicism for what it actually believes, not a caricature of it.To do that they must be willing to find out what it believes first, and it is there to read in the catechism. Which they should read if they want to criticise.


But they do not have to criticise it, in which case they do not have to read it at all.
But that is not what they do here. Many criticise on hearsay, and in doings so bear false witness. They seem to care nothing of the truth.

As to the rest of your post. Like all others - I ask questions. I expect answers, not insults, nor patronising answers.
Nobody has to answer, but if they do I expect an answer to the question I asked, not a rant about what they think I believe. Would you expect any less of others, if you asked a question?


I am open to be persuaded. But having seen no consensus amongst any of you, then If I was to "listen and learn" all that was said without debate, I would be a raving schizophrenic by now, since you expect me to believe in the fundamentally opposing views of many who answer who cannot even agree with each other!

And - since I know many here bear false witness against RCC, neither can I trust anything else they say.

Take a simple example. Those who say we believe in "justification by works" do not merit further reading from me.
Because they do not care about truth. Or they would know that we believe in salvation by "grace through faith". That works have merit do not contradict that, nor does it become "salvation by works".

If ever anyone makes a criticism based on other than truth they lose me at that point. I give them one , or two more chances, then they are no longer worth reading. A couple I no longer answer because of it.

So I will take nothing at face value, and neither would you, so why do you expect me to do so now?.

I clearly have thought about what is said which is why I give the answers I do. Some do not make grammatical sense let alone any other! Do you really expect me to agree with nonsense? And if so which version of nonsense?

Gary - it starts with respect. What you said is not respectful of any other person, including me.
You presume the right to impose doctrine unquestioned, which you would not accept yourself, so it does not earn respect from me either. I will listen and read as I do, but do not expect other than probing of the answers you give. I know a lot of opposing views from both sides of the fence, and the weaknesses in some of the arguments.

I am open to persuasion, but to do it you will need to be convincing. And you expect me to listen to those who care nothing for truth in the way they criticise RCC and I refuse. It is now unlikely. I have had more than enough unreasoned criticism from those who do not care about truth. Nor do I care about their other views, once they break that bond of truth. As have most on this thread.

I have always been happy to accept criticism of it for what it believes, but not the myths, and where there is justification I explain. We are criticised for honoring Mary with the title "mother of God" as heresy, yet Elizabeth honored her "Mother of Lord", so why criticise us for reading scripture?

If you can give me a better explanation of some issues, or even a reasoned explanation even if I do not agree with it, you may earn my trust. So You may in time earn respect that gets people to listen to what you have to say, but you will do it by patient argument, answering the objections others have. Not by "demanding" they listen unquestioning.

But - I have given up on you all. Too much unreasoned and unreasonable criticism.
And more to the point, none of you agree with each other, so if there are only varied personal opinions, I may as well use my own!!

I came asking specific questions. I got no specific answers, the few I got did not make sense.

I understand what you are saying --- and, it is very unfortunate that [ some ] will resort to an approach to "debate" that seems more like "bashing" than "reasoning"...

If you pay close attention -- I am quite sure you should notice that - while I sometimes state my beliefs in a straight-forward "tell it like it is" kind of fashion - I do not slander, ridicule, insult, or belittle any person. We all have the right to believe whatever we will. And, I respect that right of every person to believe as they wish. If I "speak out" against the RCC ( a non-person entity ) - because I believe certain things about it - I am stating my beliefs without "targeting" any person who may be associated with the RCC.

What I am suggesting that you do -- is to not just simply "write off" everything everyone is trying to tell you with the assumption that they are all lunatics, because none of it seems to make sense.

It is not going to make sense to you very quickly. It is going to take some time.

What I am asking you to do -- is to consider the possibility that there are things about the RCC that you do not know - because they have been carefully "concealed" and kept from you - so as to keep you "in the dark" with regard to the [ real ] truth.

If I tell you that [ virtually ] everything you "know" in this world is not as it seems - you will probably just call me "crazy"; however...

"So help me Almighty God Jehovah and the Lord Jesus Christ..."

- what I am telling you is TRUE.


By no means do I have anything against you, whatsoever. It is true that I "have something against" the RCC. And, I have the right to disagree with the RCC. ( If you wish, you have the right to disagree with 'protestants'. ( For what it is worth, I am not a 'protestant'. ) )

It is not my intent to "bash" you or the RCC. It is my intent to try to get you to open your eyes to something that is "hidden in plain view", as it were -- something that you do not yet see... ( unless, of course, you are on the wrong side of this thing - in which case, you know full-well what it is )

I know that all of this must sound like crazy nonsense.

There are all kinds of people on here. Each has his / her own way of communicating what they believe to others. Some may seem to come across "angry" when they actually are not - but are simply trying to communicate what they feel you should know, because they actually do care... ( believe it or not! )

Some do not "debate" well. Be forgiving. Try to overlook it. Don't let it get to you.

( Personally, I do not favor "debate" - I like to "reason" - there is a difference. )

It is extremely rare that anyone on here actually ever "ruffles my feathers" to the extent of anger. Why? Because, I do not "take it personally" if someone should happen to disagree with me.

I said the things in post #2775 to ( hopefully ) get you to thinking about your particular "method and approach" to this topic. It certainly seems like you are quite happy to promote Catholicism onto everyone here while, at the same time, dismissing all that everyone is saying [ seemingly ] without even considering it.

In a way - I suppose I cannot blame you for feeling "bashed"; albeit, remember - it is not you ( personally ) who others are saying things against ( certainly not me, at least ) - it is the "upper echelon" of the RCC [ organization ] that others are actually saying things against.

Try not to take it personally. Believe it or not, some of these people really do care - they are actually trying their best - in the only way they know how - to warn you about something that they can see but feel certain that you cannot - because they know something that you do not.

This is what you need to see and understand.

Ask yourself the question:

"What if -- just, what if -- some of these people know something that I do not..."

Don't you think it just might be worth a little bit of consideration - just in case...?


I [ unfortunately ] really do not have a lot of time to write a lot of posts - especially long ones. However - IF you are willing to reason intelligently about these issues - I will try to give an answer to some of your questions. But you have to be willing to let me "make explanation" without you trying to "railroad" me into "running rabbits" in several different directions. I do not have time to do that. We must stay on subject. You must have the patience to "hear me out" and follow my reasoning without trying to drag me off in 1000 directions before I can even explain [ whatever ] according to the current context of thought process.

So --- if you are really here to gain insights into other views...

 

[Jackson123]

Their are religious Catholics and then their are those who are truly born again. Just like their is religious Protestants and those who are truly born again.

religious not make you go to heaven. Only faith in Jesus bring you to heaven.

 

[KenAllan]

Mileuk, i do not need to research what the corrupted Catholic Church says. All i need is to study the Scriptures and see what the Holy Spirit teaches. If what the Catholic Church teaches is the opposite of what the Holy Spirit says, then we are to reject what the Catholics say and accept the Truth from the Holy Spirit.

Acts 17:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Paul taught from the Scriptures, he never used anything outside of the Scriptures.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Here the Holy Spirit is telling us that ALL Scripture is to be used for reproof, correction, and instruction. This is why i do not need to study what you Catholics teach Mileuk. All i need to do is compare what the Catholic Church teaches to what the Holy Spirit says!

Example, in Romans the Holy Spirit clearly teaches that all men and women are sinners and in Hebrews the Holy Spirit says only Jesus was sinless. Romans 3: 10-23.

Therefore when the Catholics say Mary was sinless we know without a doubt that the Catholics are teaching a lie and not the Truth from the Holy Spirit.

What you need to do Mileuk is to read the Bible only, not the teachings of the Catholic Church, but only the Bible. For in the Bible only is the Truth to be found. You will find no Truth in the teachings of the Catholic Church.

You cannot put the teachings of men above or equal to the teachings from the Holy Spirit. Like the example i used you are NOT to say Mary is sinless because the Holy Spirit says she was a sinner.

Until you return to the Truth from the Bible only you will never have the Truth.

 

[keeth]

And that of course is the problem. Myths and lack of research -
Protestant victimization of catholics has always been greater. Even in you Disregard the thousands of catholics put to death under Henry and his troops, and his even more murderous daughter.

What about Cromwell managed over 3000 in one small sea port Drogheda with his puritan troops and I quote "[FONT=&quot] It has pleased God to bless our endeavors... this is a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches", a massacre which went on and on... wexford another 2000 etc etc etc . But even that pales into insignificance with the hundreds of thousands of catholics killed by starvation during the protestant colonization of Ireland.


Whatever you regard the number of victims of inquisition they pale into insignificance with protestant killings. Even Calvin himself got a few burned to death, and Luther set himself up as God saying "“Whoever teaches otherwise than I teach, condemns God, and must remain a child of hell.” ensuring yet more intolerance.

[/FONT]Every death is regrettable, but protestants have no high ground on this. And because such as you won't research it, is the reason, I will no longer post here.

Farewell.
I repeat, protestants seem united only on anti RCC, they disagree with every material matter of doctrine. I think you should focus on that and the fact that any new Christian coming here, will leave none the wiser and more confused.

Reply or not as you will, I will not come back to answer you.

Yes, after speaking such lies above, you should run away before someone reveals the truth of the matter. You have already demonstrated your willingness to twist the facts to your own ends. As you no doubt have in your above claims which we need to examine for clarity.

Henry the VIII was not a Protestant. He killed Catholics and Protestants alike when it suited his political ambitions, and favored either or when it suited him also. He rejected the teachings of Luther and personally wrote pamphlets refuting the same. His break with Rome and consequent bloodshed of Catholics had nothing to do with supporting Protestantism, but rather his desire to transfer spiritual dominion of the church in his kingdom from the Pope, to himself. Neither of which, are acceptable to Protestantism. Once again then, we see you twisting and misapplying the actions of non-Protestants, as those of Protestants. Spewing out false accusations built upon false accounts of history, is certainly not conducive to establishing truth.

Before I continue, let me point out that you provided no references for the quotes that you supplied. This seems to be the habit of very many whose intentions are to manipulate accounts of history to their own ends, or hide the source of their references for one reason or another. If I am wrong, please do correct this suspicion, by providing a reference to your quotes.

The following internet site provides a bit more context regarding the Drogheda incident you referred to as proof Protestants were the real offenders in doling out persecution, The Irish Rebellion Of 1641 | YourIrish.com. As is usual, it is not as one sided or simplistic as you have suggested. Both Catholics and Protestants persecuting and killing each other in retaliation for injustices they believed they endured at the hands of each other. Rome originated the cause of all such struggles between Catholics and all those who resisted or rejected her usurped authority throughout history, including Protestants of course.


She is that apostate from of “Christianity” which first incorporated the power of the state by way of force, in the place of the power of the Holy Spirit of God by way of conviction. She murdered countless millions by these means long before there ever was one called a Protestant. She of course employed the same against all Protestants once that name was applied to those who chose the authority of scripture over that of the Pope. Protestantism at first employed these same methods when it became established, against Catholics as a means of survival since the Church of Rome would destroy them if at all possible if or when it became established again.

Protestantism could not maintain this practice though, and remain true to scripture. Thus the governing principles of Protestantism eventually lead to the development of a separation between church and state. Which principle the Church of Rome never accepted and or supported save temporarily in those nations where she required it to survive and exist herself. This only though, until she could or can affect the opposite through her own growing numbers and influence. Thus today through her unyielding efforts of Counter Reformation, she is once again entrenched in the politics of nations and this entire world.

Today she is ever increasingly manipulating the politics of this world to her own ends behind the scenes as much as possible. She is and has been redistributing the wealth and natural resources of nations to her own ends without the consent of the citizens of the said nations. This is apart from the billions upon billions in tax dollars she receives from various governments as well, without the consent of any if not most of the citizens of the same also. She is establishing her social teachings and doctrine by law through legislation also, through her politicians which inhabit the governing bodies of the same, which she has commanded them to do. These are just a few of the more obvious of her political maneuvers. It is just a matter of time before she establishes Roman Catholic doctrine through legislative powers as well, unto persecution for those who reject the usurped authority of the same.

Chief among these doctrines is the protection of her chosen holy day by law. Thus she is behind the massive European movement to protect Sunday sacredness there, and will fully support all such here as well in the near future. Perhaps the Pope will bring this notion forward here when he officially addresses the United States Congress in September. So much for separation of church and state in this nation. It is and will continue to be trounced by an increasingly Catholic controlled federal government. Catholic controlled Congress invited the Pope to officially address them. Wake up America!

The following is from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.



2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health. The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.[124]

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.


2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]


Sunday sacredness laws were the first laws which gave the Church of Rome the power of the state by way of forced conversion over conversion by choice through conviction. They began or gave real force to the nightmare of blood and violence which they spawned in the name of Christ. Rome, as the progenitor of this apostate from of “Christianity”, is the mother of the same. While biblical Protestantism lead the world away from all such, Rome’s Counter Reformation and todays ever increasingly apostate Protestantism are leading us right back down the road to the dark ages. All who return to such are returning to Rome, the mother of all such.


Rev 18:1 ¶ And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9 ¶ And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

[notuptome]

Their are religious Catholics and then their are those who are truly born again. Just like their is religious Protestants and those who are truly born again.

There are far more religious people than truly born again people. That is why you have all this disagreement in religious circles today.

Everybody knows how to get to heaven. Few use that knowledge to go to heaven. Why? Because men can only get saved when God calls them not when it is convenient for men. Today is the day of salvation. Today those who put it off almost never get around to it a second time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KenAllan]

Romans 1:18-32
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Professing to be wise, they became fools,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
[SUP]29 [/SUP] being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
[SUP]30 [/SUP] backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[SUP]31 [/SUP] undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
[SUP]32 [/SUP] who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


This is why people reject Salvation from God.


Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


This is why we have so called Christians who love to argue against what the Holy Spirit teaches in the Bible.

In the Church we have Wheat and Tares. Through out the N.T. the Holy Spirit tells us a lot about the Tares who are religious people who claim to be Christians but in reality are not for they do not follow Jesus Christ. The Catholics today are a very good example of Tares in the Church.

How can the Catholic claim to be a True Christian with all the false doctrines they have made up about Mary? Not one of those doctrine is in the Scriptures.

I feel sorry for the Catholics because its the Catholic Church the False Prophet and the Anti-Christ will use to destroy the World. In fact everything is pointing to Pope Francis as being the False Prophet.

 

[fordman]

i do not need to research what the corrupted Catholic Church says. All i need is to study the Scriptures and see what the Holy Spirit teaches. If what the Catholic Church teaches is the opposite of what the Holy Spirit says, then we are to reject what the Catholics say and accept the Truth from the Holy Spirit.

Lol! this coming from the same fella that said back on pg.139. post 2761..."What is interesting is that Jesus only quoted from the Bible. Jesus never quoted anything from the Catholic Church when He was waking on this World. Never, not even once, did Jesus ever quote from the Catholic Church!Therefore since Jesus only quoted from the Bible we do not need to listen to anything the corrupted Catholic Church has to say."

Where you err is that the bible wasen't even around during the time of Jesus. If you were to study early church history you'd learn that the Canon of Scripture had not arrived until 382 A.D. Granted, there was some disputes over both the Old and the New Testament. However, in 382 A.D. the Catholic Church, in a general council of bishops at Rome, with the insperation of the Holy Spirit, and under the supervision and sanction of the Pope, discerned the list of books which belong in the Bible. Therefore, if the Church discerned which books are the Bible, as Catholics, we believe that the Church can rightly interpret the written Word of God.

Acts 17:2

;And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, Paul taught from the Scriptures, he never used anything outside of the Scriptures.

Maybe early Jewish writings, but not from the N.T. or the bible, for it had not yet existed.

2 Timothy 3:16-17,

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Here the Holy Spirit is telling us that ALL Scripture is to be used for reproof, correction, and instruction. This is why i do not need to study what you Catholics teach. All i need to do is compare what the Catholic Church teaches to what the Holy Spirit says!

Typical misunderstanding of this passage by believers of "Sola Scriptura" doctrine, which is by the way...unbiblical! where you error is believing that 2 Tim.3:16-17 claims Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith. But an examination of the verse in context shows that it doesn't claim that at all. It claims only that Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos), that is, helpful. Many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal without being sufficient in getting one to the goal. Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is "sufficient" – which is, of course, exactly what Sola Scriptura believers think the passage means.
The context of 2 Tim. 3:16-17 is Paul laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of Scripture and Tradition in his ministry as a bishop. Paul says, "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God [Greek: theopneustos, "God-breathed", and profitable for teaching, for reproof, forcorrection, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:14-17). In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings – the Tradition – that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul's reminder of the value of oral Tradition in 1:13-14: "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us;" "what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching. Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy's ministry.

Example, in Romans the Holy Spirit clearly teaches that all men and women are sinners and in Hebrews the Holy Spirit says only Jesus was sinless. Romans 3: 10-23.Therefore when the Catholics say Mary was sinless we know without a doubt that the Catholics are teaching a lie and not the Truth from the Holy Spirit.

At first glance this "all have sinned" may appear to contradict a Catholic's belief in Mary's Immaculate Conception. However, on further examination, it is not an impossible verse to overcome. For Catholics, Mary is seen as an exception to this passage, as are children under the age of reason, and mentally disabled people. With both of these examples, these groups are unable to sin because of their lack of reasoning. For example, a child who does not understand what sin is cannot sin, because the child is unaware of what is right and wrong. Now granted, a child who does not understand sin is not entirely like Mary, but it does show that there are exceptions to the "all have sinned" rule.
The "all" in Romans 3:23 was translated from the Greek word pas. Like the usage of the word "all" today, it does not necessarily mean each and every person with no exceptions. For instance, in the same letter to the Romans (11:26), St. Paul says that "all Israel will be saved," and in Matthew 2:3 it says "all of Jerusalem" were troubled. Yet, were all of Israel going to be saved, or was each and every person in Jerusalem troubled? There are plenty of other examples like these found all throughout the Bible. The main point is that the word "all" had many different meanings in the Greek language, and that it does not rule out the possibility of exceptions in Romans 3:23.
So.... some things one must consider...God is perfect God MUST [no options here] remain perfect in order to be God. Mary is the Mother of God (Lk.1:35)
Therefore Mary absolutely HAD TO BE perfected before she was conceived [a miracle by all mighty God]; but then she had to freely choose to remain perfect her entire life in order to BE the "Mother of God". Lastly....God could not....Would not.... And was not born from an imperfect Mother. Such an act would have cause God (Jesus in His human nature) to be imperfect, as would have been His Mother...... An absolutely impossible position for God to accept!!
Oh yeah.... Remember your own Martin Luther? Well, the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death.
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."[SUP] [/SUP]
[SUP]---Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.Louis], Volume 4, 694.[/SUP]
[SUP]　

Pax Christi

"For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ---Lk.1:48
[/SUP]

 

[WillyWally]

Well, the arguments proffered (on both sides) seem to be more about semantics, but I guess that's what 'heresy' really comes down to.
It is somewhat unedifying to pull the Heresy card.
The Bible, as has been noted all over, was an assembly of 'chosen' books adopted by a convocation of very worldly men (women not really being capable of such weighty decisions...).
The Catholic Church claims direct descent from this pack of ambitious empire-builders, and The Others claim ownership of the Book they sanctioned.
I think we're all brothers in this world, and the real message of Jesus was 'Love thy neighbour'.
Name-calling is childish and un-Christian.

 

[Jackson123]

Well, the arguments proffered (on both sides) seem to be more about semantics, but I guess that's what 'heresy' really comes down to.
It is somewhat unedifying to pull the Heresy card.
The Bible, as has been noted all over, was an assembly of 'chosen' books adopted by a convocation of very worldly men (women not really being capable of such weighty decisions...).
The Catholic Church claims direct descent from this pack of ambitious empire-builders, and The Others claim ownership of the Book they sanctioned.
I think we're all brothers in this world, and the real message of Jesus was 'Love thy neighbour'.
Name-calling is childish and un-Christian.

Catholic and christian is 2 different religion like buddha and Hindu.


the different is fundamental. The different start from the foundation.

Christian all denomination believe bible is the foundation of the doctrine.

Catholic believe bible and tradition. And bible it self is consider tradition. So there is another tradition other then bible.

Then it produce the doctrine than Mary is queen of heaven, purgatory Islam include in the plan of salvation. Jew don't need to be christian to be save, mean accused Stephen so stupid to die for witness about Jesus to Jews.

 

[Jeff_56]

Jesus called those who are like the roman beast "children of hasatan" . and that's what they are in the heresy - not a matter of anyone's opinion nor open to argument nor subject to semantics; it's life and death for billions of souls lost to the rcc demonic heresy, and a few saved from it.

Let Jesus "call them names", and as always trust Jesus or not. It is enough.

 

[fordman]

Catholic and christian is 2 different religion like buddha and Hindu.

Sorry...you are incorrect. Catholics are Christian, unfortunatly though, not all Christians are Catholic.

Christian all denomination believe bible is the foundation of the doctrine.

Oh.....do you mean the the bible, that back in 382 A.D. the Catholic Church, in a general council of bishops at Rome, with the insperation of the Holy Spirit, and under the supervision and sanction of the Pope, which discerned the list of books which would belong in the Bible? Is that the bible you are speaking of?

Catholic believe bible and tradition. And bible it self is consider tradition. So there is another tradition other then bible.

Hmmmm.... interesting statement. However, as a cradel Catholic, let me inform you what I/we Catholics really believe.
Catholic belief is succinctly expressed in the profession of faith or credo called the Nicene Creed:[h=2]The Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.[/h]I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnateof the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

To go a little futher, and you'd really like to learn what we Catholics really believe, pick yourself up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and not what you hear or read from the many anti-Catholic sites. Here's an example:


"Our profession of faith begins with God, for God is the First and the Last, the beginning and the end of everything. The Credo begins with God the Father, for the Father is the first divine person of the Most Holy Trinity; our Creed begins with the creation of heaven and earth, for creation is the beginning and the foundation of all God's works."
---the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 198.

Then it produce the doctrine than Mary is queen of heaven, purgatory

All which is biblical, and can prove it if you'd like.


Pax Christi


"For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowless; behold, from now on all ages call me blessed." Lk.1:48.

 

[notuptome]

Sorry...you are incorrect. Catholics are Christian, unfortunatly though, not all Christians are Catholic.

Because your confession said so?

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Some details on this baptism would be useful.

To go a little futher, and you'd really like to learn what we Catholics really believe, pick yourself up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and not what you hear or read from the many anti-Catholic sites. Here's an example:


"Our profession of faith begins with God, for God is the First and the Last, the beginning and the end of everything. The Credo begins with God the Father, for the Father is the first divine person of the Most Holy Trinity; our Creed begins with the creation of heaven and earth, for creation is the beginning and the foundation of all God's works."
---the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 198.

That is so broad and subject to interpretation even the devil himself could be called a Catholic Christian and be within it guides.

All which is biblical, and can prove it if you'd like.

You would really take on such an endeavor? You have no idea of the scope of such an undertaking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[fordman]

Their are religious Catholics and then their are those who are truly born again. Just like their is religious Protestants and those who are truly born again.

All Baptized Catholics are as you say "born again", the bible way. Catholics believe that we are born again through Baptism, and that Baptism regenerates us so that we are a "blank slate" before God.

The history tells us the "Born Again" movement can only trace its origin to the early 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century.


Pax Christi

"For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed." ---- Lk.1:48

 

[fordman]

Because your confession said so?

Prove otherwise

Some details on this baptism would be useful.

Sure... I'll give you five.
Catholic Baptism does five things specifically.

1. It forgives all sins that may have been committed prior to a person’s baptism including original sin, mortal sins, and venial sins, and it relieves the punishment for those sins.
2. It makes the newly baptized person “a new creature.”
3. It turns the person into a newly adopted son of God and a member of Christ. Baptism incorporates one into the Church which is the body of Christ.
4. It brings someone into the flock of the faithful and brings them to share in the royal priesthood of Christ (1 Pet. 2:9-10). Catholic baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers and it also brings about the sacramental bond of the unity of Christians. Paragraph 1271 of the Catechism says it best:
   
   Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”
   ​
5. Last, but certainly not in the least, baptism leaves and indelible spiritual mark (character) of belonging to Christ on the soul. Nothing you can do will take away this mark even if you sin a million times. Those sins may not grant you salvation, but you will always carry the mark of a Christian on your soul, therefore making re-baptism impossible.

That is so broad and subject to interpretation even the devil himself could be called a Catholic Christian and be within it guides.

who's interpretation,,,, yours? Yeah.... right! Lol!

You would really take on such an endeavor? You have no idea of the scope of such an undertaking.[/quotes]
Sure.... taken it on many times before. Quite successfully I might add.



Pax Christi


"For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowless; behold, from now on all ages call me blessed." Lk.1:48.

 

[Jackson123]

Sorry...you are incorrect. Catholics are Christian, unfortunatly though, not all Christians are Catholic.


Oh.....do you mean the the bible, that back in 382 A.D. the Catholic Church, in a general council of bishops at Rome, with the insperation of the Holy Spirit, and under the supervision and sanction of the Pope, which discerned the list of books which would belong in the Bible? Is that the bible you are speaking of?


Hmmmm.... interesting statement. However, as a cradel Catholic, let me inform you what I/we Catholics really believe.
Catholic belief is succinctly expressed in the profession of faith or credo called the Nicene Creed:The Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnateof the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

To go a little futher, and you'd really like to learn what we Catholics really believe, pick yourself up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and not what you hear or read from the many anti-Catholic sites. Here's an example:


"Our profession of faith begins with God, for God is the First and the Last, the beginning and the end of everything. The Credo begins with God the Father, for the Father is the first divine person of the Most Holy Trinity; our Creed begins with the creation of heaven and earth, for creation is the beginning and the foundation of all God's works."
---the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 198.



All which is biblical, and can prove it if you'd like.


Pax Christi


"For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowless; behold, from now on all ages call me blessed." Lk.1:48.

1. Catholic is not christian. Christian believe salvation is only by Jesus not by church or by work. Only by faith in Jesus.

christian believe Muslim not adore the same God with Abraham. Muslim God is Allah different with Abraham God.

Catholic believe Muslim God and Abraham God is the same.

2. Christian believe Mary is only a human not Queen of Heaven, Catholic believe Mary is Queen of Heaven.

3. Catholic believe in purgatory, Christian not.

4. Infallible Pope Boniface VIII said:

For centuries, popes have been making increasingly grandiose claims for their office. Boniface accepts such claims and surrounds himself with theorists who push for even greater privileges. Boniface now carries papal assertions beyond anything seen before. In Unam Sanctam, the pope claims to be head over kings and emperors and to have a lock on salvation. The bull closes with this bald assertion, “Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

This is not what Christian believe. Christian believe salvation of every human be subject to Jesus alone.


And countless list of the differentiation because the foundation is different.

Different text book will produce huge different doctrine.
Among christian denomination, the different in the interpretation, but they have and believe in the same text book.

They believe salvation by Grace through faith alone.

 

[Jeff_56]

frdman.... all you can prove is you're unable to come to the truth so far.

 

[fordman]

frdman.... all you can prove is you're unable to come to the truth so far.

Au contraire mon frere. I have proved it with Scripture and Sacred/Oral Tradition! You on the otherhand have been unable to refute it. Tisk..... Tisk!


Pax Christi


"For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowless; behold, from now on all ages call me blessed." Lk.1:48.

 

[keeth]

Oh.....do you mean the the bible, that back in 382 A.D. the Catholic Church, in a general council of bishops at Rome, with the insperation of the Holy Spirit, and under the supervision and sanction of the Pope, which discerned the list of books which would belong in the Bible? Is that the bible you are speaking of?

Answering Catholic Claims: DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIVE US THE BIBLE?

https://carm.org/did-roman-catholic-church-give-us-our-bible

Who Gave Us the Scriptures

Who Gave Us the Bible

Did The Roman Catholic Church Give Us The Bible?

 

[Jeff_56]

As Yahweh Himself says, and as Torah and Scripture says clearly, you just convicted yourself.

Yahshua always opposed the kind of person you are being on purpose, He condemned them and made it plain and simple for His disciples to see. As He says, if you don't repent, you have already been judged by your own words and you will likewise perish.

... I have proved it with Scripture and Sacred/Oral Tradition!

 

[Jackson123]

The Reformers held that the Waldensian Church was formed about 120 A. D., from which date on, they passed down from father to son the teachings they received from the apostles. The Latin Bible, the Italic, was translated from the Greek not later than 157 A. D. (Scrivener's Introduction, Vol. 2, p. 43.) We are indebted to Beza, the renowned associate of Calvin, for the statement that the Italic Church dates from 120 A. D. From the illustrious group of scholars which gathered around Beza, 1590 A. D., we may understand how the Received Text was the bond of union between great historic churches. As the sixteenth century is closing, we see in the beautiful Swiss city of Geneva, Beza, an outstanding champion of Protestantism, the scholar Cyril Lucar, later to become the head of the Greek Catholic Church, and Diodati, also a foremost scholar. As Beza astonishes and confounds the world by restoring manuscripts of that Greek New Testament from which the King James is translated, Diodati takes the same and translates into Italian a new and famous edition, adopted and circulated by the Waldenses. (McClintock & Strong Encycl., Art. "Waldenses.") Leger, the Waldensian historian of his people, studied under Diodati at Geneva. He returned as pastor to the Waldenses and led them in their flight from the terrible massacre of 1655. (Gilly, Researches, pp. 79, 80.) He prized as his choicest treasure the Diodati Bible, the only worldly possession he was able to preserve. Cyril Lucar hastened to Alexandria where Codex A, the Alexandrian Manuscript, is lying, and laid down his life to introduce the Reformation and the Reformers' pure light regarding the books of the Bible.

[h=3]Waldenses and the Bible[/h]www.giveshare.org/library/bible/waldensesandbible.html