Can One’s Salvation Be Given Up?

[John146]

Yes, of course that is part of it, but I didn’t want to stray from the topic of the OP. So if those verses I used for this were for the Jews, why would think anything Jesus said or did would be given over to the Gentiles?

Paul says the believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit is out guarantee that this day will be ours. It's not dependent upon our earthly living. In the meantime, we should not grieve the Holy Spirit through our disobedience.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Aerials1978]

Jesus was instructing the Jews on living in the kingdom of heaven, the Jews earthly physical kingdom as promised to them all throughout the OT. The death, burial and resurrection was hid at the time.

So which things of Jesus’s teaching should we as Gentiles accept and not accepted according to this?

 

[John146]

So which things of Jesus’s teaching should we as Gentiles accept and not accepted according to this?

If thy align with what the Lord gave to the Apostle Paul for the body of Christ then take it. If it doesn't align, then just know that those directions were for the Jews before the cross pointing to their promised kingdom.

 

[Aerials1978]

Paul says the believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit is out guarantee that this day will be ours. It's not dependent upon our earthly living. In the meantime, we should not grieve the Holy Spirit through our disobedience.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We are in complete agreement about what scripture says. What I like to discuss is the notion of one giving up salvation. Saying “Well that was meant for the Jews” is not a way to address those passages. If we only accept what we agree with and reject other things, we are not really living in the Word of God.

 

[Aerials1978]

If thy align with what the Lord gave to the Apostle Paul for the body of Christ then take it. If it doesn't align, then just know that those directions were for the Jews before the cross pointing to their promised kingdom.

Let’s just stay with what Jesus said for now. All of the verses I used I came from Him.

 

[John146]

Let’s just stay with what Jesus said for now. All of the verses I used I came from Him.

We are to rightly divider the Scriptures, especially the books written to the Jews concerning their kingdom, and the body of Christ. People will fall into false doctrine when trying to mix the two.

Paul says nothing can separate the believer from God's love. Nothing. Not even themselves.

Romans 8
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Aerials1978]

We are to rightly divider the Scriptures, especially the books written to the Jews concerning their kingdom, and the body of Christ. People will fall into false doctrine when trying to mix the two.

Paul says nothing can separate the believer from God's love. Nothing. Not even themselves.

Romans 8
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul’s is speaking of external things that can’t separate. He doesn’t mention ourselves. Tell me how you would interpret this passage:

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
John 15:1-8

 

[John146]

Paul’s is speaking of external things that can’t separate. He doesn’t mention ourselves. Tell me how you would interpret this passage:

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
John 15:1-8

Nor any other creature...that includes ourselves.

Not a Christian to be found in the passages you quoted.

 

[John146]

Paul’s is speaking of external things that can’t separate. He doesn’t mention ourselves. Tell me how you would interpret this passage:

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
John 15:1-8

The Holy Spirit is given to those who have trusted in Christ. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee of the redemption, which is the adoption. It comes with only one condition. Have you trusted in Christ at some point in your life?

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Aerials1978]

Nor any other creature...that includes ourselves.

Not a Christian to be found in the passages you quoted.

Nor any other creature would allude to something external.

I’m having difficulty understanding you. Are saying that Jesus words were nullified once the Church was established? Was His teachings words only for the Jews? Please give clarification.

 

[Aerials1978]

The Holy Spirit is given to those who have trusted in Christ. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee of the redemption, which is the adoption. It comes with only one condition. Have you trusted in Christ at some point in your life?

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What does my trust in Jesus have to do with the topic?

 

[John146]

Nor any other creature would allude to something external.

I’m having difficulty understanding you. Are saying that Jesus words were nullified once the Church was established? Was His teachings words only for the Jews? Please give clarification.

There is a difference in doctrines as Jesus taught the Jews concerning their promised kingdom vs what Jesus gave Paul to give to the Church. For instance:

Jesus commands to turn the other cheek. That's the way one is to live in the kingdom when Jesus is King in Jerusalem. One does not take matters in their own hands.

Paul says, if it be possible, live peaceably with one another. If it be possible. Living in the Church age without Jesus here as Judge, we are to live peaceably only if the other parties want peace. Paul leaves room for self defense if the other parties don't want peace. Turning the other cheek sometimes does not lead to peace.

 

[Whispered]

Accepting Jesus and Lord as Savior. So if this was for only the Jews, shouldn’t we assume that Jesus entire ministry was only for the Jews?

Jesus came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then Jesus tells us He has other sheep that He must bring into the fold, so that there is but one flock and one shepherd.
Jesus came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel because their Messiah prophecy was foretold, and Jesus filled that prophecy. This doesn't mean Jesus only saves the Jews. If it did mean that then the Jews failed miserably in being found worthy because it was at their insistence that Pilate had Jesus nailed to the cross.
And to this day Jews do not accept Jesus was Messiah. There are Rabbi's on YT aplenty that will tell you why that is.
Meanwhile, what many Synagogues Rabbi's fail to read from the Torah is the Book of Isaiah chapter 53.

 

[Aerials1978]

There is a difference in doctrines as Jesus taught the Jews concerning their promised kingdom vs what Jesus gave Paul to give to the Church. For instance:

Jesus commands to turn the other cheek. That's the way one is to live in the kingdom when Jesus is King in Jerusalem. One does not take matters in their own hands.

Paul says, if it be possible, live peaceably with one another. If it be possible. Living in the Church age without Jesus here as Judge, we are to live peaceably only if the other parties want peace. Paul leaves room for self defense if the other parties don't want peace.

So are saying Paul received a different Gospel when he was in Arabia?

 

[OneOfHis]

Paul’s is speaking of external things that can’t separate. He doesn’t mention ourselves. Tell me how you would interpret this passage:

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
John 15:1-8

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?

.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn or keep salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

nothing to do with the loss of salvation to one of His


in this verse using proper context
"in Him" represents all in the church (body of Christ) the tares and the wheat and this is descriptive of the two sorts

 

[Aerials1978]

Jesus came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then Jesus tells us He has other sheep that He must bring into the fold, so that there is but one flock and one shepherd.
Jesus came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel because their Messiah prophecy was foretold, and Jesus filled that prophecy. This doesn't mean Jesus only saves the Jews. If it did mean that then the Jews failed miserably in being found worthy because it was at their insistence that Pilate had Jesus nailed to the cross.
And to this day Jews do not accept Jesus was Messiah. There are Rabbi's on YT aplenty that will tell you why that is.
Meanwhile, what many Synagogues Rabbi's fail to read from the Torah is the Book of Isaiah chapter 53.

Yes, I understand that. My question was see where the other users position was.

 

[Lanolin]

hmm Isnt He going to spit them out of his mouth those who are lukewarm and not hot or cold?
So maybe its a case of you use it or lose it (Salvation)

 

[Whispered]

To the OP question. No.
We don't work to stay saved. God does all the work at redeeming us once we hold faith in Christ. Being that God knew us before the womb, knew those for whom the Gospel message would resonate as truth, not that He predetermined whom He would call to be saved, God would also know the heart of that repentant one before He did all the work of making them a new creation.
When Jesus/God said, no one can take us from His hand, that He will never lose those whom the Father gave Him, that's precise and without question. Because to lose our Salvation and return to whom we were before, God's authority in changing us into His new creation would have to be subject to our change of mind about being Saved. And that change of mind, were it able to undo all that God did in making us a new creation, would then be more powerful than God's power to change us into a redeemed soul. Which would necessarily mean, if we can undo our Salvation by our own mental choice, we could commit to create our own Salvation the same way; and without God. Which would mean, we could do a work to save ourselves.
If we could do a work to ave ourselves, Jesus, who was God, would not have had to die on the cross in order to seal the new covenant with His sacred blood so that His being the last blood sacrifice for our sins would wash all who held faith in Him clean of their sins. Rather, we could simply choose to be saved and be saved we would be. Without Christ.
But that isn't how it works.
We are not saved by our works. We are able to attain eternal life and irrevocable Salvation because of God's grace that washed the sins of the world away when His blood, the blood is the life, was spilled on the last altar dedicated to eradicating sin; the cross.
And all that we sinners have to do to receive the blessing that accomplished for all the world's people is to believe.
And that doesn't mean, all we have to do to lose that Salvation is to disbelieve.
Transitory redemption is conjured in the minds of humans. We think and so we are. Consequently , we think if we stop having faith we're damned again. But that isn't how it works.
Holding faith was the clarion call if you will to God, so as to let Him know we accept the message of the Gospel and see ourselves in its teaching and are repentant and seek to be cleansed.
After that, God does all the work. And no one can undo what God accomplishes. If we could, that would make mortal minds stronger than God's power. And that would mean God isn't actually God.

 

[Aerials1978]

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?

.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn or keep salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

nothing to do with the loss of salvation to one of His


in this verse using proper context
"in Him" represents all in the church (body of Christ) the tares and the wheat and this is descriptive of the two sorts

I would have to adhere that when Jesus states “In Him” he is alluring to the fact that one would have to remain in Him for the sake of salvation. Without Christ there is no Church.

 

[OneOfHis]

I would have to adhere that when Jesus states “In Him” he is alluring to the fact that one would have to remain in Him for the sake of salvation. Without Christ there is no Church.

This is no argument. You completely miss the whole point of the entire chapter.🤦‍♂️