Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot
- Thread starter GraceAndTruth
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
E
Please do not not be taken in by them....they have no clue...every scripture or chapter they use is completely distorted.
It is a false as false can be.
But they do work tirelessly to persuade people because it is bondage which is the opposite of what Christ gives.
They have the nerve to employ the term free grace....what a joke.
It is a false as false can be.
But they do work tirelessly to persuade people because it is bondage which is the opposite of what Christ gives.
They have the nerve to employ the term free grace....what a joke.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
How can you say that "My choice or anyone else's choice doesn't limit God's power", yet if I don't choose Him He can't save me. You say it's His will, and the price was paid, He WATS to save me, but can't because I don't let Him. This is where your argument falls apart. This line of thinking is not sound.
God has all power, God wills all saved, and Jesus already paid the price for all. The only thing that the saved have that the unsaved doesn't is the choice right? That's a powerful choice right there, I mean you can't escape the fact that in this system ALL power is in our choice. How can you deny this? I mean it's like saying "the waters not wet", I mean you can say it, but it's not true.
Listen I am not trying to "convince you" or anything, but do you at least see how I'm looking at it. I do see how you are for the record.
God has all power, God wills all saved, and Jesus already paid the price for all. The only thing that the saved have that the unsaved doesn't is the choice right? That's a powerful choice right there, I mean you can't escape the fact that in this system ALL power is in our choice. How can you deny this? I mean it's like saying "the waters not wet", I mean you can say it, but it's not true.
Listen I am not trying to "convince you" or anything, but do you at least see how I'm looking at it. I do see how you are for the record.
God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. He is all powerful and could have stopped it from happening but he didn't. He gave the command and told them the consequences and then, let them make the choice of whether to obey or not. Same goes for now. He has commanded all men every where to repent, but they don't. This in no way makes him weak or inept...He simply gave the command and leaves it up to us to obey or not. But just like with Adam and Eve he has given consequences for our choice. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved or don't and be damned....
To say that because God gave us command and then a choice to accept and obey or reject somehow makes him weak or takes away from his power, is where I don't understand, your logic.
To say that because God gave us command and then a choice to accept and obey or reject somehow makes him weak or takes away from his power, is where I don't understand, your logic.
Oh don't worry about that. I have had this debate with several in the past. We have always just agreed to disagree. Many told me I was a Calvinist but didn't know it yet.... whatever that means...lol They said that we agreed on most things....They told me to keep studying and I would take that step into Calvinism....
Anyhow it has been several years, I keep studying, and have never took that step because I can't see it in scripture and I'm not going to step over what is plainly written in the scripture.
I don't know if they really can't see how dangerous it is or not. But to preach people may or may not have a chance to be saved is totally destructive in my opinion. It casts doubt, confusion, and stumbling block to the lost.
Anyhow it has been several years, I keep studying, and have never took that step because I can't see it in scripture and I'm not going to step over what is plainly written in the scripture.
I don't know if they really can't see how dangerous it is or not. But to preach people may or may not have a chance to be saved is totally destructive in my opinion. It casts doubt, confusion, and stumbling block to the lost.
-
1
- Show all
Could not agree with you more. Many of the old writers were guilty of going to far. Restricted man's will to much or completely abolished it. Man, as a created being, is not a puppet on God's string.
Man possesses a will but man's will is not "free". His/Her will will determine many things about his/her daily life. Our will can lead us into sin, God leads no man into sin. God tempts no man. Man's will is subservient to God's will, if it were not, then God is not God. He has lost control of His creation. God forbid!
But because of man's fallen state (depravity), he can do nothing, in regards to spiritual things, unless God acts FIRST in the act of regeneration. Being Born from above. Therefore, man's will is not free to choose Christ. Oh, he can choose something he calls christ but it is not the Jesus Christ of Holy Writ.
Truthfully, man's will is not free even in earthly matters. Let me give a couple of examples: 1) You cannot have any car wish to have; you can only have what you can afford. 2) When you wake up, you cannot put on anything that you might choose to wear because you are limited to that which you have. 3) You cannot eat anything you would like to eat at home because you are limited to what you have on hand.
Man possesses a will but man's will is not "free". His/Her will will determine many things about his/her daily life. Our will can lead us into sin, God leads no man into sin. God tempts no man. Man's will is subservient to God's will, if it were not, then God is not God. He has lost control of His creation. God forbid!
But because of man's fallen state (depravity), he can do nothing, in regards to spiritual things, unless God acts FIRST in the act of regeneration. Being Born from above. Therefore, man's will is not free to choose Christ. Oh, he can choose something he calls christ but it is not the Jesus Christ of Holy Writ.
Truthfully, man's will is not free even in earthly matters. Let me give a couple of examples: 1) You cannot have any car wish to have; you can only have what you can afford. 2) When you wake up, you cannot put on anything that you might choose to wear because you are limited to that which you have. 3) You cannot eat anything you would like to eat at home because you are limited to what you have on hand.
-
3
- Show all
I would agree its not so much a salvation issue but how did we first hear his understanding and a agree. (salvation)as two walking together.?
Or how can we who have no power of faith hear the will of God and seek to do it? Romans 3 Informs us. . of a persons own volition it is impossible to understand and seek . God must reveal him self as it is written .The invitation to enter into a conversation. Without that power of faith we are informed in Hebrews 11 we have no power or remain powerless to receive the reward of faith; "Believe God not seen ."
Hebrews 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him
He is the rewarder the one who pays the wage. The one who has the power to work in us. Not us the powerless to work in him . Catholicism men who say the kingdom comes by walking after signs what the eyes see and not faith.
Jesus did not lord it over the flesh of men. But rather he did as our brother, the first born perform the will of father that worked in him .
If our unsen father does not first give us ears to hears. . . no man could come.. Its not a democracy and we can vote who gets elected.
Job 23 informs us he is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul performs. Only he who performs that appointed to us can make our hard hearts soft. He can take away the murmuring old hearts and give us a new heart as those who delight to do the will of another.
Philipiians2:13 -14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Job speaks of the work of the gospel reveling the unseen things of faith making our hearts soft yoked with Christ our rest .
Job 23:8-16 Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him: On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him: But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:
Or how can we who have no power of faith hear the will of God and seek to do it? Romans 3 Informs us. . of a persons own volition it is impossible to understand and seek . God must reveal him self as it is written .The invitation to enter into a conversation. Without that power of faith we are informed in Hebrews 11 we have no power or remain powerless to receive the reward of faith; "Believe God not seen ."
Hebrews 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him
He is the rewarder the one who pays the wage. The one who has the power to work in us. Not us the powerless to work in him . Catholicism men who say the kingdom comes by walking after signs what the eyes see and not faith.
Jesus did not lord it over the flesh of men. But rather he did as our brother, the first born perform the will of father that worked in him .
If our unsen father does not first give us ears to hears. . . no man could come.. Its not a democracy and we can vote who gets elected.
Job 23 informs us he is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul performs. Only he who performs that appointed to us can make our hard hearts soft. He can take away the murmuring old hearts and give us a new heart as those who delight to do the will of another.
Philipiians2:13 -14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Job speaks of the work of the gospel reveling the unseen things of faith making our hearts soft yoked with Christ our rest .
Job 23:8-16 Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him: On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him: But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:
I am sorry, but there are too many scriptures that will not harmonize with your theory. Dan 4:35 that you say that you believe will not harmonize with your thinking that God wants to save all mankind eternally, but he can not because they won't accept him. If it is God's will to save all mankind, then all mankind WILL be saved. How can you refute that fact?
I appreciate your comments, and the sincerity behind them. I was frustrated for many years in trying to harmonize the scriptures, with no success.
The truth, according to the scriptures, is a mystery to most of God's children, and why God does not reveal it to more of his children than he does, I do not know.
The simple fact of the matter is; God is all powerful, and accomplishes ALL of his will. God can do anything that he so desires to do. He can eternally save as many of mankind that he wants to save, and if that is ALL of mankind, then so be it. ALL of mankind will live with him in heaven.
We have too many scriptures that teach us that all of mankind will not go to heaven. You say it is because they will not ACCEPT him, and I say that that statement is STAYING GOD'S HAND. I can not understand how this can be any clearer.
It was not Noah's choice to go and preach to Nineveh. He did not ACCEPT God's request, but did God say, Well I wanted Jonah to go and preach to Nineveh but he did not ACCEPT, so I guess I will have to find someone that will ACCEPT. That is not the way that it happened. God brought about circumstances that made Jonah ACCEPT. He has the power and ability to do the same thing with mankind, if he so desires.
The truth, according to the scriptures, is a mystery to most of God's children, and why God does not reveal it to more of his children than he does, I do not know.
The simple fact of the matter is; God is all powerful, and accomplishes ALL of his will. God can do anything that he so desires to do. He can eternally save as many of mankind that he wants to save, and if that is ALL of mankind, then so be it. ALL of mankind will live with him in heaven.
We have too many scriptures that teach us that all of mankind will not go to heaven. You say it is because they will not ACCEPT him, and I say that that statement is STAYING GOD'S HAND. I can not understand how this can be any clearer.
It was not Noah's choice to go and preach to Nineveh. He did not ACCEPT God's request, but did God say, Well I wanted Jonah to go and preach to Nineveh but he did not ACCEPT, so I guess I will have to find someone that will ACCEPT. That is not the way that it happened. God brought about circumstances that made Jonah ACCEPT. He has the power and ability to do the same thing with mankind, if he so desires.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
You heed to re-read 1 Cor 2:14 again, and this time concentrate on what you are reading. The natural man, until he has been quickened to a new spiritual life, cannot choose on his own accord, to believe the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness. In order to believe spiritual things, you first have to understand spiritual things, and the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. This is what it says in the scripture of 1 Cor 2:14. Why can't you understand what it means?
1ofthem,
[I don't know if they really can't see how dangerous it is or not. But to preach people may or may not have a chance to be saved is totally destructive in my opinion. It casts doubt, confusion, and stumbling block to the lost.]
I see and understand your concern, but the issue is more how you are presenting the issue.
Pastors who preach the doctrines of grace Preach the person and work of Jesus and they stick to the scriptural message and language.
They usually point out man's condition as dead in Adam, and sinners under the wrath of God.
Then they follow by pointing out that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness, and that He has come to save sinners.
That is hardly a stumbling block.
It is not confusing at all. If they are outside of Christ they should have doubts about where they are headed.
The only safe place is under the blood of Jesus.
[I don't know if they really can't see how dangerous it is or not. But to preach people may or may not have a chance to be saved is totally destructive in my opinion. It casts doubt, confusion, and stumbling block to the lost.]
I see and understand your concern, but the issue is more how you are presenting the issue.
Pastors who preach the doctrines of grace Preach the person and work of Jesus and they stick to the scriptural message and language.
They usually point out man's condition as dead in Adam, and sinners under the wrath of God.
Then they follow by pointing out that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness, and that He has come to save sinners.
That is hardly a stumbling block.
It is not confusing at all. If they are outside of Christ they should have doubts about where they are headed.
The only safe place is under the blood of Jesus.
1ofthem,
[I agree with this, but I believe the Father draws all men...]
The Father nowhere is said to draw all men in the sense of jn 6:44.
Jesus taught All that the father gives to the Son...will come....this alone shows your idea is in trouble??? do you agree.
.[ Some accept, some reject.]
Unless drawn savingly, no one accepts anything spiritual
[Just like in John 3....Some come to the light, but others will not least their deeds be reproved.]
I am not sure jn 3 helps your case;
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. ]
yes...not Israel only, in Jn 11 right before this we read this;
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year,
he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
[Also the Spirit and the Bride say come and let whosoever will come and take of the water of life freely.]
Yes indeed.
[I agree with this, but I believe the Father draws all men...]
The Father nowhere is said to draw all men in the sense of jn 6:44.
Jesus taught All that the father gives to the Son...will come....this alone shows your idea is in trouble??? do you agree.
.[ Some accept, some reject.]
Unless drawn savingly, no one accepts anything spiritual
[Just like in John 3....Some come to the light, but others will not least their deeds be reproved.]
I am not sure jn 3 helps your case;
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. ]
yes...not Israel only, in Jn 11 right before this we read this;
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year,
he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
[Also the Spirit and the Bride say come and let whosoever will come and take of the water of life freely.]
Yes indeed.
"EleventhHour,
[So you give a false message of hope of they are not the chosen of God?]
Hello 11H,
Good question, let's look at it a bit closer.
We are to be faithful to the message itself and the souls we preach, teach, and speak to.
Election is certainly a biblical truth. God has chosen who He is going to save.That is a biblical truth, however;
He has not revealed to us a list of names, but you can see for yourself in Acts how God himself explained this to Paul;
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
God reveals to Paul...He has many, or much people in this city.
He does not say who they are, he does not say how many, but clearly does not say all.
God uses means, the preaching and teaching of the word. The Spirit quickens the word to those he has purposed to save.
No false hope, all men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel.
We tell them both about salvation in Christ, and second death for those who remain in rebellion.
[So you give a false message of hope of they are not the chosen of God?]
Hello 11H,
Good question, let's look at it a bit closer.
We are to be faithful to the message itself and the souls we preach, teach, and speak to.
Election is certainly a biblical truth. God has chosen who He is going to save.That is a biblical truth, however;
He has not revealed to us a list of names, but you can see for yourself in Acts how God himself explained this to Paul;
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
God reveals to Paul...He has many, or much people in this city.
He does not say who they are, he does not say how many, but clearly does not say all.
God uses means, the preaching and teaching of the word. The Spirit quickens the word to those he has purposed to save.
No false hope, all men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel.
We tell them both about salvation in Christ, and second death for those who remain in rebellion.
- Status