Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[Cameron143]

I understand what the conversation is about. This part of it started with you asking our thoughts (I am paraphrasing here) on God ignoring other nations. Some are saying God did not ignore them by virtue of the fact that He chose Abraham and Abraham's line (Israel) through whom Jesus Christ would come. In fact, Israel was often (oh, I cannot think of the right word here 0h! I got it LOL) instrumental in bringing an end to some of those nations through God's leading. He was not ignoring them. That is all_ Except to say, perhaps you meant something else? _

Perhaps our understanding of ignoring differs. It is, in one sense, impossible for God to ignore anything. After all, He is omniscient. There is nothing that eludes His observation. So I'm not saying by ignoring that He is not aware, nor excluding of them. But I do believe He focused His attention and purposes on and through Israel very specifically and specially, and to an inordinate degree compared to every other nation combined. And most people seem to readily accept this.
Given that, I wondered why it wouldn't be consistent to believe the same way today.

It seems my choice of words failed to communicate my intention. My sincere apologies.

 

[Magenta]

Perhaps our understanding of ignoring differs. It is, in one sense, impossible for God to ignore anything. After all, He is omniscient. There is nothing that eludes His observation. So I'm not saying by ignoring that He is not aware, nor excluding of them. But I do believe He focused His attention and purposes on and through Israel very specifically and specially, and to an inordinate degree compared to every other nation combined. And most people seem to readily accept this.
Given that, I wondered why it wouldn't be consistent to believe the same way today.

It seems my choice of words failed to communicate my intention. My sincere apologies.

God focusing His attention on Israel simply does not equate to God ignoring other
nations, so it does seem that how we view this differs based on that point alone.
Yes, God chose Israel. He set them apart, made covenants with and promises to
them, and held them up to a standard that many balked at and really would rather
not have been so chosen, for they were also severely punished. They were also used
by God to bring punitive measures against other nations, but that too is beside the
point, and really actually only underscores the fact that God was not ignoring those others.

God blesses those who hear and obey today just as He did way back when -

No need to apologize- - Eh?

 

[Cameron143]

God focusing His attention on Israel simply does not equate to God ignoring other
nations, so it does seem that how we view this differs based on that point alone.
Yes, God chose Israel. He set them apart, made covenants with and promises to
them, and held them up to a standard that many balked at and really would rather
not have been so chosen, for they were also severely punished. They were also used
by God to bring punitive measures against other nations, but that too is beside the
point, and really actually only underscores the fact that God was not ignoring those others.

God blesses those who hear and obey today just as He did way back when -

No need to apologize- - Eh?

The need for an apology depends on which side of the apology you stand. I never feel the need for someone to apologize to me because if I feel offended, I forgive whether an apology is offered or not.
I don't assume that for other people. Eh?

 

[Mem]

God focusing His attention on Israel simply does not equate to God ignoring other
nations, so it does seem that how we view this differs based on that point alone.
Yes, God chose Israel. He set them apart, made covenants with and promises to
them, and held them up to a standard that many balked at and really would rather
not have been so chosen, for they were also severely punished. They were also used
by God to bring punitive measures against other nations, but that too is beside the
point, and really actually only underscores the fact that God was not ignoring those others.

God blesses those who hear and obey today just as He did way back when -

No need to apologize- - Eh?

Someone, not on this site, expressed his view of hate as a withholding of love and I can agree with that when I consider the provided biblical example of Jacob and Esau.
Esau did not receive God's love in the full measure that Jacob received it, pressed down and running over. Esau received the blessing of the fatness of earth topped off with the dew of heaven while Jacob received the dew of heaven with the fatness of the earth. And isn't it true that the dew of heaven is exactly what nourishes the fatness of the earth, and it is that which Jacob receive the greater portion of.

 

[Magenta]

The need for an apology depends on which side of the apology you stand. I never feel the need for
someone to apologize to me because if I feel offended, I forgive whether an apology is offered or not.
I don't assume that for other people. Eh?

I have a hear and obey story -- I went out shopping last week and made four pit stops to
pick up various things. At one place, behind me a couple entered the elevator returning us to
the underground parking. The man said P2 quite quietly, but I heard and immediately pushed
the P2 button for them, and he thanked me. I said, "I hear and obey." Then I added, it is so much
different from when I was younger when I heard and did the opposite. My life is so much better
now. The couple just kind of stood there, not quite gaping at me but seemingly not really knowing
how to respond. LOL. Somehow I found that amusing, but I did also wonder if they made the
connection between Abraham hearing and obeying, and what I said. Because really, it comes
down to the fact that my life really is so much better after having surrendered my life to Christ

 

[Cameron143]

I have a hear and obey story -- I went out shopping last week and made four pit stops to
pick up various things. At one place, behind me a couple entered the elevator returning us to
the underground parking. The man said P2 quite quietly, but I heard and immediately pushed
the P2 button for them, and he thanked me. I said, "I hear and obey." Then I added, it is so much
different from when I was younger when I heard and did the opposite. My life is so much better
now. The couple just kind of stood there, not quite gaping at me but seemingly not really knowing
how to respond. LOL. Somehow I found that amusing, but I did also wonder if they made the
connection between Abraham hearing and obeying, and what I said. Because really, it comes
down to the fact that my life really is so much better after having surrendered my life to Christ

Amen. Such should be the testimony of all the saints.
And if it is, how we got to that point pales in comparison to the fact that we have.

 

[Magenta]

Someone, not on this site, expressed his view of hate as a withholding of love and I can agree with that when I consider the provided biblical example of Jacob and Esau.
Esau did not receive God's love in the full measure that Jacob received it, pressed down and running over. Esau received the blessing of the fatness of earth topped off with the dew of heaven while Jacob received the dew of heaven with the fatness of the earth. And isn't it true that the dew of heaven is exactly what nourishes the fatness of the earth, and it is that which Jacob receive the greater portion of.

Well, people do argue that God hated Esau the person even though Jacob and Esau were identified
as nations while still in Rebekah's womb. I recently pointed out to someone here that God hating
someone is not meant to be taken the way many assume when they hear that God hated Esau.
You have explained it very well I gave them these verses:

Luke 14:26
If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and
children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple.

Compare to

1 John 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does
not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Leviticus 19:17
“You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason
frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him.

1 John 2:9
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members
of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

1 John 2:11
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and
does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

 

[Cameron143]

Someone, not on this site, expressed his view of hate as a withholding of love and I can agree with that when I consider the provided biblical example of Jacob and Esau.
Esau did not receive God's love in the full measure that Jacob received it, pressed down and running over. Esau received the blessing of the fatness of earth topped off with the dew of heaven while Jacob received the dew of heaven with the fatness of the earth. And isn't it true that the dew of heaven is exactly what nourishes the fatness of the earth, and it is that which Jacob receive the greater portion of.

That understanding of love and hate is largely what I believe is accurate. But material blessings aren't all that is in view. The real blessings that Jacob received that Esau did not were spiritual in nature.

 

[Mem]

That understanding of love and hate is largely what I believe is accurate. But material blessings aren't all that is in view. The real blessings that Jacob received that Esau did not were spiritual in nature.

Aye, I do believe that the "dew of heaven" is speaking toward spiritual blessings.

 

[Cameron143]

Aye, I do believe that the "dew of heaven" is speaking toward spiritual blessings.

I agree. What spiritual blessings do you believe Esau received?

 

[Magenta]

Aye, I do believe that the "dew of heaven" is speaking toward spiritual blessings.

Kind of like manna from heaven~

In the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. When the layer of dew had
evaporated, there were thin flakes on the desert floor, as fine as frost on the ground.
When the Israelites saw it,they asked one another, “What is it?” For they did not know
what it was. So Moses told them, “It is the bread that the LORD has given you to eat."

With Jesus being the bread of life -

 

[Mem]

I agree. What spiritual blessings do you believe Esau received?

Comfort, for one, tho Esau's idea of it was in a bowl of beans.

 

[Cameron143]

Comfort, for one, tho Esau's idea of it was in a bowl of beans.

Thanks

 

[Magenta]

Comfort, for one, tho Esau's idea of it was in a bowl of beans.

I thought it was lentils

 

[Cameron143]

I thought it was lentils

We could set up a double blind experiment giving varieties of beans to different test subjects and lentils to the control group and see which particular bean provides maximum comfort.
I'm sure money has already been budgeted. We just need to apply.

 

[Mem]

I thought it was lentils

We could set up a double blind experiment giving varieties of beans to different test subjects and lentils to the control group and see which particular bean provides maximum comfort.
I'm sure money has already been budgeted. We just need to apply.

Haaa, that might've made all the difference! Believe me, I serve a regular diner that I think has confused wining and dining with whine- in' and dyin-in'.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Unfortunately, right here on CC.

Whenever you hear that some were born predestined to go to Hell, that's Calvinism.
Whenever you hear that some were born predestined to go to Heaven and don't have to come to Jesus, that's Calvinism.
Whenever you hear that there is no such thing as Apostacy, that's Calvinism.
Whenever you hear that Christ only died for a select few, that's Calvinism.

I'm sure that many here are more eloquent in enumerating all the heresies of TULIP than I, but I suggest that we just focus on the truth rather than continue to wallow in the mire of Calvinism.

I've not read anyone say those things here.

 

[ButterflyJones]

The portion you quoted was part of a series of posts and was directed to a particular individual and dealing with the subject of evangelism in OT Israel. This singular portion doesn't reflect the tenor of the entire discussion.
As far as ignoring other nations, the content of the Bible itself reflects the truth that God dealt with Israel to the neglect of other nations, and includes them only in relation to Israel. Or did I miss the Chronicles of Ethiopia?

I don't believe other nations are ignored. Jesus said he had other sheep he must bring into the fold.

Just tossing this into the discussion. Not related specifically to your post. I just didn't want to make another post to share the link.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/chosen-by-god/what-is-free-will

 

[Cameron143]

I don't believe other nations are ignored. Jesus said he had other sheep he must bring into the fold.

Just tossing this into the discussion. Not related specifically to your post. I just didn't want to make another post to share the link.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/chosen-by-god/what-is-free-will

I was referring to OT times in my post. And I recognize ignore was a poor choice of words to express what I was trying to say.
And feel free to jump off in any direction from my posts. I interrupt so many threads it would be hypocritical for me to object.

 

[oyster67]

I've not read anyone say those things here.

As long as you don't believe any of those lies, you'll be fine.