Birth of the New Testament Church
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It is simple........John the Baptist prepared the material that Jesus would use to build the 1st New Testament Church. They had given proof of conversion, been identified with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ dia immersion. The word church comes from two Greek words Ekklesia and equates to being CALLED OUT, ASSEMBLED TOGETHER AND LOCAL.....Jesus did this when he called OUT HIS FIRST TWO DISCIPLES to follow him (where 2 or 3 are I am in their midst) He began the 1st Church and being in their midst led them until his ascension. They are identified as THE CHURCH at least twice and maybe 3 times in the PRESENT TENSE while he is on the earth with him. He had commanded them to go everywhere and make disciples. Know that he could not be in every place at once the job of comforter, guide, leader etc. was given over to the Holy Spirit which EMPOWERED the church and acted as the one who would GO BEFORE THEM (AS CHRIT DID) AGO-Hodos <<- Go before, lead, guide, comfort and teach. The Holy Spirit took the place of Christ and in so doing enabled the churches (now plural) and gave the now plural churches the presence and power of God........That is what I believe the bible sets forth.....we cannot alleviaite the use of Church in the present tense while Christ was on this earth.
I copied the "Yo Peter" comment from someone else on the thread. The point being made was that Peter surely did not use the name of the Lord Jesus in water baptism if it was against what Jesus said in Matthew. The bible does not record one occurrence of water baptism before performed using the phrase, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. The name of the Lord Jesus was used.
Kind of went over my head, I will have to sit and really try to understand.
Since Jesus is a hypostasis of God, I understood that theoretically He can be in million places at the same time if needed (to fulfill the "where 2 or 3 gather in my name" deal (which could happen in million places at the same time).
Just because the comforter is with us, does not mean that Jesus cannot show up, as He said He was going to be with us to the end of time.
The presence of God by the Holy Spirit dwells bodily in Jesus, and the church happens to be the Body, so we are the New Temple of God, living stones part of that Temple, Jesus Christ, and having the Holy Spirit indwell us, does not make us that Holy Spirit.
Some even think that the beginning of the Church was when the names of certain persons were written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.
The physical manifestation of the people gathered happened after.
Jesus is present when the empowered church does the work of the Kingdom:
Acts 14:3
So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Jesus is the real miracle worker.
Thanks for the explanation though.
Since Jesus is a hypostasis of God, I understood that theoretically He can be in million places at the same time if needed (to fulfill the "where 2 or 3 gather in my name" deal (which could happen in million places at the same time).
Just because the comforter is with us, does not mean that Jesus cannot show up, as He said He was going to be with us to the end of time.
The presence of God by the Holy Spirit dwells bodily in Jesus, and the church happens to be the Body, so we are the New Temple of God, living stones part of that Temple, Jesus Christ, and having the Holy Spirit indwell us, does not make us that Holy Spirit.
Some even think that the beginning of the Church was when the names of certain persons were written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.
The physical manifestation of the people gathered happened after.
Jesus is present when the empowered church does the work of the Kingdom:
Acts 14:3
So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Jesus is the real miracle worker.
Thanks for the explanation though.
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Name has to do with unseen authority .God does not have a name as us needed to tell one another apart having different identities.. All of the names of God speak of His immutable attributes. Its simply a commandment that says; baptize them in the authority of God. God is not divided.
Matthew 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
By the way the name Peter shows up in most of your posts.
Matthew 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
By the way the name Peter shows up in most of your posts.
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One could say whose Father, whose Son and whose Holy Spirit. It seems it isn't the long way to say in Jesus's name. You are right about the taking authority, but we must be specific whose authority we are using. We do have some evidence of early tampering with scripture. Trinity proponents added text in 1 John 5:7 to say something that scripture wasn't even addressing. Read the RV to get the true picture. They even have a footnote about why it differs from KJV. 
Oh boy, well, here goes........
there.........
It seems like (and intended or not) it seems like one here is attempting to elevate Peter above Christ. That one or two are suggesting that the Holy Trinity is not Biblical, and one or more are saying that if there is no example found in Scripture of the Apostles doing something, then the Church need not do it either. Meaning, that it isn't true either...........
MY THOUGHTS
(no tap dancing)
Peter IS NOT above Christ our Lord...........he is really not above any other saved, sanctified, justified believer in the eyes of God. Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest among men, but even he was far less than anyone in Heaven.........
The Holy Trinity IS!
Someone said it made sense to baptize in the Name of Jesus since it was He who died for us and not God or the Holy Spirit........... Jesus IS God........they ARE GOD.......so, how exactly did God not take upon the appearance of man and come to earth to die for us? Just saying.......Jesus is God the Son.........
The Apostles doing it thingy.............IF folks want to abide by this standard, then I assure them they have to profess that the Apostles themselves WERE NOT water baptized.......for there is NO RECORD in all of Scripture that says they were............and that brings us to.........
We are speaking of WATER BAPTISM
Water baptism is important for all believers........but ONLY because Christ said we should be water baptized.
IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION.........it is the first act of obedience AFTER SALVATION.
Water baptism serves as a witness to the world and the Church that a person has become a disciple of Jesus Christ.............that's IT! Just as the Holy Spirit appearing as a dove landed on the shoulder of Christ at His water baptism served as a Witness........our water baptism serves as a witness.........
Folks can pick apart Scripture (looking for this thingy or that thingy) all they want...........but as for Me and My House.........we WILL obey the words of Jesus Christ our Lord!
and, by the by............there were thousands and thousands of folks water baptized during the Ministry of Christ while He was here on earth............Do y'all know what words the Apostles (who actually did the baptizing) spoke those times?
Hmmmmmm
John 4:1,2
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
there.........
It seems like (and intended or not) it seems like one here is attempting to elevate Peter above Christ. That one or two are suggesting that the Holy Trinity is not Biblical, and one or more are saying that if there is no example found in Scripture of the Apostles doing something, then the Church need not do it either. Meaning, that it isn't true either...........
MY THOUGHTS
(no tap dancing)
Peter IS NOT above Christ our Lord...........he is really not above any other saved, sanctified, justified believer in the eyes of God. Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest among men, but even he was far less than anyone in Heaven.........
The Holy Trinity IS!
Someone said it made sense to baptize in the Name of Jesus since it was He who died for us and not God or the Holy Spirit........... Jesus IS God........they ARE GOD.......so, how exactly did God not take upon the appearance of man and come to earth to die for us? Just saying.......Jesus is God the Son.........
The Apostles doing it thingy.............IF folks want to abide by this standard, then I assure them they have to profess that the Apostles themselves WERE NOT water baptized.......for there is NO RECORD in all of Scripture that says they were............and that brings us to.........
We are speaking of WATER BAPTISM
Water baptism is important for all believers........but ONLY because Christ said we should be water baptized.
IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION.........it is the first act of obedience AFTER SALVATION.
Water baptism serves as a witness to the world and the Church that a person has become a disciple of Jesus Christ.............that's IT! Just as the Holy Spirit appearing as a dove landed on the shoulder of Christ at His water baptism served as a Witness........our water baptism serves as a witness.........
Folks can pick apart Scripture (looking for this thingy or that thingy) all they want...........but as for Me and My House.........we WILL obey the words of Jesus Christ our Lord!
and, by the by............there were thousands and thousands of folks water baptized during the Ministry of Christ while He was here on earth............Do y'all know what words the Apostles (who actually did the baptizing) spoke those times?
Hmmmmmm
John 4:1,2
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
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Rehbein wrote: "Peter IS NOT above Christ our Lord...........he is really not above any other saved, sanctified, justified believer in the eyes of God. Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest among men, but even he was far less than anyone in Heaven........."
We understand that Peter as an individual believer is the same as any other and always below God.
Problem is that he is the only one that was given the keys = invested with authority to set requirements for the New Covenant as guided by the Holy Spirit.
And be clear on this, no one absolutely no one is above the Holy Spirit. Peter was then the only authorized spokesperson of the H.S.
So if Peter under the Holy Spirit gave the God approved baptismal formula, we better pay attention. Internal evidence is clear in the Bible, no one was baptized as per Mt. 28:19, so it points to it being spurious.
Rehbein wrote: "The Holy Trinity IS!"
The trinity as a concept was devised to aid us understand certain perceptions we have of God in action in our realm.
The definition I subscribe to is the very old one: "loving relation between Divine Substantive Realities (hypostasis)".
As explained in other posts, hypostasis had to be translated to Latin. the word used was Personae. Personae means the mask an actor use to denote the character being played. Tertullian was not convinced, but since Jesus is the image of the invisible God (like a mask), then they went for it.
How on Earth Personae in Latin (meaning mask that an actor uses in a play) turn into the modern term person? beats me.
Rehbein wrote: "Someone said it made sense to baptize in the Name of Jesus since it was He who died for us and not God or the Holy Spirit........... Jesus IS God........they ARE GOD.......so, how exactly did God not take upon the appearance of man and come to earth to die for us? Just saying.......Jesus is God the Son........."
Another confusion here. Jesus the word made flesh is a hypostasis of God.
Look at the following: when you look at yourself in a mirror, the image there is a substantive reality (it affects senses, can be perceived), is a hypostasis of you in a way but not in God's way, because one you move out it disappears (ceases to be a substantive reality).
Now to see how different God is, an image of the invisible God, by God's awesome power and might, is allowed to have life in Himself just as He has life:
John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
So awesome is God that He can have an image of Himself (substantive reality) have life, and this happened so Jesus the word made flesh could die for us in the cross.
It had to be that way, because we all know cannot die. but a substantive reality (hypostasis) of Him allowed to have life can.
Eventually the glorification of that voluntarily sacrificing hypostasis was that the whole Deity would dwell bodily in that hypostasis.
Meaning that God eventually clothed Himself of humanity in a New Temple of God (Jesus Christ) so He could be with us without melting us (as would happen were He in HIs natural Spirit state. Remember that God's visit in the mount in the OT made people understand that there was a real chance of dying in front of a Holy God in HIs normal state).
Rehbein wrote: "We are speaking of WATER BAPTISM"
Water baptism is important for all believers........but ONLY because Christ said we should be water baptized.
IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION.........it is the first act of obedience AFTER SALVATION.
Water baptism serves as a witness to the world and the Church that a person has become a disciple of Jesus Christ.............that's IT! Just as the Holy Spirit appearing as a dove landed on the shoulder of Christ at His water baptism served as a Witness........our water baptism serves as a witness........."
What you leave out is the following: the New Covenant has stipulations to get into:
You are expected to believe, confess, turn away from sin, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, receive the Holy Spirit, walk humbly with your God, doing as He tells you so you walk in the good deeds He prepared for you to walk in from before the foundation of the world and aid in the looking of the lost.
You say you serve Jesus Christ, yet ignore the baptism formula that the Holy Spirit gave to the only authorized person: Peter, and seem to ignore a clear explanation Jesus gave:
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
You may rationalize all you want, but if you sit and check against Scripture as Bereans do, you will see, that we have a responsibility to check all to see it jibes with Scripture, and retain what is good.
Do not violate the criteria:
God has no inconsistencies: not in His Word, not in HIs plan, not in His New Covenant.
If no one was baptized in the long formula in the Bible, very high chances are that that formula is spurious.
In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a phrase in the style of liturgical speech or jargon, and Jesus never spoke like that in the Bible.
Listen: I am not attacking you. I am glad that at least you sit and think about things. We ought to check things out, because salvation is personal, we are all required to see if things are so.
It is much easier to have an overzealous person redirect so that proper research is carried out to get to the truth of the matter, than try to motivate one without passion to check things in light of the Scripture like noble Bereans.
Kind regards.
We understand that Peter as an individual believer is the same as any other and always below God.
Problem is that he is the only one that was given the keys = invested with authority to set requirements for the New Covenant as guided by the Holy Spirit.
And be clear on this, no one absolutely no one is above the Holy Spirit. Peter was then the only authorized spokesperson of the H.S.
So if Peter under the Holy Spirit gave the God approved baptismal formula, we better pay attention. Internal evidence is clear in the Bible, no one was baptized as per Mt. 28:19, so it points to it being spurious.
Rehbein wrote: "The Holy Trinity IS!"
The trinity as a concept was devised to aid us understand certain perceptions we have of God in action in our realm.
The definition I subscribe to is the very old one: "loving relation between Divine Substantive Realities (hypostasis)".
As explained in other posts, hypostasis had to be translated to Latin. the word used was Personae. Personae means the mask an actor use to denote the character being played. Tertullian was not convinced, but since Jesus is the image of the invisible God (like a mask), then they went for it.
How on Earth Personae in Latin (meaning mask that an actor uses in a play) turn into the modern term person? beats me.
Rehbein wrote: "Someone said it made sense to baptize in the Name of Jesus since it was He who died for us and not God or the Holy Spirit........... Jesus IS God........they ARE GOD.......so, how exactly did God not take upon the appearance of man and come to earth to die for us? Just saying.......Jesus is God the Son........."
Another confusion here. Jesus the word made flesh is a hypostasis of God.
Look at the following: when you look at yourself in a mirror, the image there is a substantive reality (it affects senses, can be perceived), is a hypostasis of you in a way but not in God's way, because one you move out it disappears (ceases to be a substantive reality).
Now to see how different God is, an image of the invisible God, by God's awesome power and might, is allowed to have life in Himself just as He has life:
John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
So awesome is God that He can have an image of Himself (substantive reality) have life, and this happened so Jesus the word made flesh could die for us in the cross.
It had to be that way, because we all know cannot die. but a substantive reality (hypostasis) of Him allowed to have life can.
Eventually the glorification of that voluntarily sacrificing hypostasis was that the whole Deity would dwell bodily in that hypostasis.
Meaning that God eventually clothed Himself of humanity in a New Temple of God (Jesus Christ) so He could be with us without melting us (as would happen were He in HIs natural Spirit state. Remember that God's visit in the mount in the OT made people understand that there was a real chance of dying in front of a Holy God in HIs normal state).
Rehbein wrote: "We are speaking of WATER BAPTISM"
Water baptism is important for all believers........but ONLY because Christ said we should be water baptized.
IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION.........it is the first act of obedience AFTER SALVATION.
Water baptism serves as a witness to the world and the Church that a person has become a disciple of Jesus Christ.............that's IT! Just as the Holy Spirit appearing as a dove landed on the shoulder of Christ at His water baptism served as a Witness........our water baptism serves as a witness........."
What you leave out is the following: the New Covenant has stipulations to get into:
You are expected to believe, confess, turn away from sin, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, receive the Holy Spirit, walk humbly with your God, doing as He tells you so you walk in the good deeds He prepared for you to walk in from before the foundation of the world and aid in the looking of the lost.
You say you serve Jesus Christ, yet ignore the baptism formula that the Holy Spirit gave to the only authorized person: Peter, and seem to ignore a clear explanation Jesus gave:
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
You may rationalize all you want, but if you sit and check against Scripture as Bereans do, you will see, that we have a responsibility to check all to see it jibes with Scripture, and retain what is good.
Do not violate the criteria:
God has no inconsistencies: not in His Word, not in HIs plan, not in His New Covenant.
If no one was baptized in the long formula in the Bible, very high chances are that that formula is spurious.
In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a phrase in the style of liturgical speech or jargon, and Jesus never spoke like that in the Bible.
Listen: I am not attacking you. I am glad that at least you sit and think about things. We ought to check things out, because salvation is personal, we are all required to see if things are so.
It is much easier to have an overzealous person redirect so that proper research is carried out to get to the truth of the matter, than try to motivate one without passion to check things in light of the Scripture like noble Bereans.
Kind regards.
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." John 14:16-20
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." John 14:16-20
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In the book of Matthew, Jesus said, “…All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” He went on to say “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (28:18) Why would Jesus say that all power was given unto Him and in the next sentence state to baptize in the titles of Father, Son and the Holy Spirit? He did not. Jesus told the disciples to water baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; He was referring to His own name.
This stands to reason because everything is to be done in Jesus name.
"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." Col 3:17
This stands to reason because everything is to be done in Jesus name.
"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." Col 3:17
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Most of my posts to date have focused on what the bible records about the foundation requirements for becoming part of the New Testament church. Peter was given the "keys to the kingdom" by Jesus. "Keys", if you will, that give believer's access into the kingdom.
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5-6
After sharing the story of Jesus' sacrifice that opened the way for all mankind to brought back into fellowship with their maker, Peter went on to share "keys" (Acts 2:38) to building a firm foundation of which Jesus is the corner stone. Peter's ministry is not preached about as often as Paul's ministry.
Paul's ministry focused more on helping believer's become more like Jesus thus adding building blocks atop the main foundation that was presented by Peter.
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5-6
After sharing the story of Jesus' sacrifice that opened the way for all mankind to brought back into fellowship with their maker, Peter went on to share "keys" (Acts 2:38) to building a firm foundation of which Jesus is the corner stone. Peter's ministry is not preached about as often as Paul's ministry.
Paul's ministry focused more on helping believer's become more like Jesus thus adding building blocks atop the main foundation that was presented by Peter.
Notice Peter was given "keys." Not one key. The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Ask yourself how Acts 2:38 correlates with death, burial and resurrection.
If people would step out in faith and be obedient to what is instructed in Acts 2:38; being water baptized in Jesus name they would be able to SEE the concepts of the kingdom. Afterward, upon receiving the Spirit, which is the Holy Ghost, they would be equipped to ENTER into the kingdom for Jesus said:
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:3. We are buried with Him in water baptism.
He goes on to say:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 We are to ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Again, Jesus indicates we must do something if you want to be able to SEE the kingdom. And something additional is required of us in order to ENTER the kingdom.
If people would step out in faith and be obedient to what is instructed in Acts 2:38; being water baptized in Jesus name they would be able to SEE the concepts of the kingdom. Afterward, upon receiving the Spirit, which is the Holy Ghost, they would be equipped to ENTER into the kingdom for Jesus said:
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:3. We are buried with Him in water baptism.
He goes on to say:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 We are to ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Again, Jesus indicates we must do something if you want to be able to SEE the kingdom. And something additional is required of us in order to ENTER the kingdom.
Paul had the same keys as Peter.The gopsel . And Peter did not share keys if they were his to begin with . In Acts that baptism is not a water baptism . But is to baptized in the unseen authority . In Acts 2. To be baptized every one of you. Is saying the same as saying every one believe God according to the water or cleansing power of His word.
Believe = receive. Not get wet and receive
It would seem you are promoting venerating the flesh as a Catholic must.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Acts2:38
Believe = receive. Not get wet and receive
It would seem you are promoting venerating the flesh as a Catholic must.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Acts2:38
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We will have to agree to disagree on 99% of that..................but, everyone is entitled to their opinion...........
Especially the part making Peter the OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON for the Holy Spirit...........or whatever you were trying to ascribe to him.........and, as for your formula/model..........you are turning to the wisdom of man, and neither God or I think much of that............sooooo
Especially the part making Peter the OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON for the Holy Spirit...........or whatever you were trying to ascribe to him.........and, as for your formula/model..........you are turning to the wisdom of man, and neither God or I think much of that............sooooo
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I still don't get what the problem would be in using the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It is what the scripture says and I really can't see any problem with it. I don't see Jesus getting upset for someone using the name of the Father and the Holy Ghost along side his when Baptizing. I mean doesn't the scripture teach that those three work together and agree together as one. So really I just can't imagine there would be a problem with it.
Are you implying that by using the name of the Father and Holy Ghost along side Jesus' name it would somehow lessen his power?
Are you implying that by using the name of the Father and Holy Ghost along side Jesus' name it would somehow lessen his power?
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