Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[FreeGrace2]

Follow along:

All are dead bc of sin.

God offers grace to all and causes some to believe.

Halt right there. That's the problem with Calvinism.

Offering something to everyone but NOT allowing many to have it. Makes NO sense. Why don't you get that?

Those who say yes to God's offer of grace, God gifts with faith.

Where did these get the ability to say "yes"?

Those who say no to God's offer of grace, God gives them over to reprobation and eternal condemnation. .

But since Calvinism claims that NO ONE can say "yes" to God's offer of grace apart from God CAUSING them to say "yes", your statement is totally meaningless.

Again, you miss the point. Maybe just avoiding it altogether.

Calvinism has God literally dangling grace in front of everyone, but certain ones are literally PREVENTED from having any of it.

Do you agree or disagree that for God to withhold the ability to believe, He is actually PREVENTING belief?

 

[JerryInBoston]

Offering something to everyone but NOT allowing many to have it. Makes NO sense. Why don't you get that?

Where did these get the ability to say "yes"?

God's grace by itself causes some to say "yes" and others to say "no." Those that say yes are those that want to foresake sin in their lives, conquers death, and have eternal life. They are then gifted salvation and persevering faith. Those that say "no" prefer their sin, they prefer living in darkness, they don't see themselves as dead in sin, and they love their evil pleasures.

Why don't you get that?

 

[JerryInBoston]

But since Calvinism claims that NO ONE can say "yes" to God's offer of grace apart from God CAUSING them to say "yes", your statement is totally meaningless.

God's sovereign grace causes fallen sinners to say "yes." God's grace is offered to all, but the dead in sin are inclined to stay dead in sin. It's a mystery how God causes some to say "yes" to God's offer of grace, but some do; they are the elect. When they say "yes" they are gifted saving and persevering faith.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Calvinism has God literally dangling grace in front of everyone, but certain ones are literally PREVENTED from having any of it.

The grace God offers is universal. Some say "yes" to God's offer, many say "no." Everyone knows what the offer is, namely: forgiveness of sin and ife eternal in God's heavenly kingdom. And everyone knows the caveat, namely: foresake sin, take up your cross, follow HIM, observe all God commands, love God and love others. Those that say "yes" receive the gift of salvation and the gift of persevering faith. The others stay dead in sin reprobates.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Do you agree or disagree that for God to withhold the ability to believe, He is actually PREVENTING belief?

God's offer of his sovereign grace is universal. Because all are dead in sin, all are inclined to remain dead in sin. It is a mystery why some people who hear the offer say "yes." But those that do say "yes" are gifted salvation and persevering faith. Those that say "no" stay dead in sin and remain repeobates.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's grace by itself causes some to say "yes" and others to say "no."

And, where is this found in Scripture?

Those that say yes are those that want to foresake sin in their lives, conquers death, and have eternal life.

But WHY would they "want to"? Aren't they just as totally depraved as the ones God PREVENTS from responding?

You're starting to waver from the Calvinist line.

They are then gifted salvation and persevering faith.

Since you now admit that some of the totally depraved actually WANT TO forsake sin and have eternal life, doesn't this prove free will?

btw, since you really believe that God causes people to WANT TO, why don't you stay consistent and just say that God CAUSES some to WANT TO forsake sin and have eternal life.

iow, those who WANT TO forsake sin and have eternal life are FORCED to since God CAUSES them to.

If someone twisted your arm behind you and told you to say something specific, wouldn't it be correct to say that the twister person CAUSED you to say that something specific?

Those that say "no" prefer their sin, they prefer living in darkness, they don't see themselves as dead in sin, and they love their evil pleasures.

You're starting to sound more like the Bible. That people have free choice. But really, don't you believe that God PREVENTS those who say "no" and prefer their sin, etc?

Because you have been repeatedly claiming that everyone is totally depraved, and left to their own devices, NONE would say "yes" and ALL would prefer their sin and darkness. Right?

Why don't you get that?

What I am getting is that you are now becoming internally contradicted.

Kinda like talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You mean you really aren't aware of this???

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's sovereign grace causes fallen sinners to say "yes."

You really mean FORCES, don't you? Since no self respecting totally depraved person would be caught dead saying "yes" on their own. Right?

God's grace is offered to all, but the dead in sin are inclined to stay dead in sin.

Inclined, you say. Doesn't Calvinism believe that every human is totally depraved and WANTS TO stay dead in sin?

So what's this noise about "are inclined" all about?

It's a mystery how God causes some to say "yes" to God's offer of grace, but some do; they are the elect. When they say "yes" they are gifted saving and persevering faith.

No, it's really no mystery at all Jerry. It's very simple, really.

God created mankind with a conscience with which to know right from wrong. Rom 2:14,15 And God's creation reveals Himself plainly to everyone so that no one has any excuse for not recognizing God as Creator and thanking Him. Rom 1:19-21.

And man believes with the heart. Rom 10:9

That means his own heart.

There are no verses in the Bible that says that God causes belief. There is no reason on earth to believe what the Bible does not say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The grace God offers is universal. Some say "yes" to God's offer, many say "no." Everyone knows what the offer is, namely: forgiveness of sin and ife eternal in God's heavenly kingdom. And everyone knows the caveat, namely: foresake sin, take up your cross, follow HIM, observe all God commands, love God and love others. Those that say "yes" receive the gift of salvation and the gift of persevering faith. The others stay dead in sin reprobates.

You are certainly full of Calvinist talking points. But it seems you have no idea what the Bible teaches.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you agree or disagree that for God to withhold the ability to believe, He is actually PREVENTING belief?

God's offer of his sovereign grace is universal. Because all are dead in sin, all are inclined to remain dead in sin.

That's not what you posted a few posts back. You said some were "inclined".

It is a mystery why some people who hear the offer say "yes." But those that do say "yes" are gifted salvation and persevering faith. Those that say "no" stay dead in sin and remain repeobates.

So you can't answer my very straightforward question, huh Jerry?

When God doesn't give the ability to believe, is He actually PREVENTING belief for that person?

Go ahead and thumb through all those talking points you have and find the answer.

Thanks.

 

[JerryInBoston]

And, where is this found in Scripture?


But WHY would they "want to"? Aren't they just as totally depraved as the ones God PREVENTS from responding?

You're starting to waver from the Calvinist line.


Since you now admit that some of the totally depraved actually WANT TO forsake sin and have eternal life, doesn't this prove free will?

btw, since you really believe that God causes people to WANT TO, why don't you stay consistent and just say that God CAUSES some to WANT TO forsake sin and have eternal life.

iow, those who WANT TO forsake sin and have eternal life are FORCED to since God CAUSES them to.

If someone twisted your arm behind you and told you to say something specific, wouldn't it be correct to say that the twister person CAUSED you to say that something specific?


You're starting to sound more like the Bible. That people have free choice. But really, don't you believe that God PREVENTS those who say "no" and prefer their sin, etc?

Because you have been repeatedly claiming that everyone is totally depraved, and left to their own devices, NONE would say "yes" and ALL would prefer their sin and darkness. Right?


What I am getting is that you are now becoming internally contradicted.

Kinda like talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You mean you really aren't aware of this???

I'm not wavering at all. It is by the power of God and the power of HIS sovereign grace that causes the predestinated elect to say "yes." Once the elect say "yes", the elect are gifted salvation and persevering faith. Those who say "yes" are the elect, those that say "no" are not.

 

[fredoheaven]

Calvinist talking points only.


Not interested in the opinions of Calvinists.

I am interested in what the Bible actually says. Since you have NOT YET provided any verses that support all your Calvinist talking points, the conclusion is that the talking points aren't biblical.

This is repetitious, he cannot just get scriptural support. Bless all fellas...

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you agree or disagree that for God to withhold the ability to believe, He is actually PREVENTING belief?

That's not what you posted a few posts back. You said some were "inclined".


So you can't answer my very straightforward question, huh Jerry?

When God doesn't give the ability to believe, is He actually PREVENTING belief for that person?

Go ahead and thumb through all those talking points you have and find the answer.

Thanks.

God causes people to believe.
Scriptures support this, namely: Proverbs 21:1; John 1:12-13, 6:28-29, 65; Acts 13:48, 16:14; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:9, 24-25; 1 Peter 1:3. And gifts them a new heart of faith: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me." Psalm 51:10; "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." Ezekiel 36:26. See also, Ephesians 2:8 (faith is a gift 🎁 of God's grace).

God hardens hearts: "Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’" Matthew 13:14-15.

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” John 12:40.

"So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills" Romans 9:18.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not wavering at all.

Of course you are. Aren't you paying attention to what you are posting??

It is by the power of God and the power of HIS sovereign grace that causes the predestinated elect to say "yes."

Go back and read what you said about those who "WANT TO forsake sin and have eternal life".

Accoding to Calvinism, EVERY human being is born TOTALLY DEPRAVED and DOESN'T WANT TO do those things.

You are definitely confused.

Once the elect say "yes", the elect are gifted salvation and persevering faith.

Since Calvinists claim that God CAUSES some to say "yes" and "gives salvation to them, they really mean that God simply FORCES some to say "yes" and forces salvation on them. He CAUSES them to WANT IT. Otherwise, they wouldn't want it.

Those who say "yes" are the elect, those that say "no" are not.

That's what I've been saying all along.

God FORCES some to say "yes" and PREVENTS others to say "no".

And you won't answer my question about the word "prevents" for God not CAUSING some to believe.

Have you figured out your answer yet?

 

[JerryInBoston]

And you won't answer my question about the word "prevents" for God not CAUSING some to believe.

Have you figured out your answer yet?

Does God harden hearts? The Bible says HE does. Hardened hearts do not receive the gift of faith by God. They stay hardened and God gives them over to a reprobate mind.

I think we're done here. You have your Arminius/Pelagius views, which I don't share. That's fine. Be blessed. 🙌

 

[FreeGrace2]

God causes people to believe.

If He did, we'd all just be puppets, and NOT responsible for any action and NOT accountable.

Scriptures support this, namely: Proverbs 21:1; John 1:12-13, 6:28-29, 65; Acts 13:48, 16:14; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:9, 24-25; 1 Peter 1:3.

Tell ya what. I'm not going to do your work for you. If you think all of these verses support your claim that God causes people to believe, cull through your long list and please quote the very best most clear verse that says what you claim.

I'm interested in what verse you choose.

And gifts them a new heart of faith: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me." Psalm 51:10; "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." Ezekiel 36:26. See also, Ephesians 2:8 (faith is a gift 🎁 of God's grace).

Nothing here says that God causes people to believe.

God hardens hearts: "Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’" Matthew 13:14-15.

Let's see how Dr Luke quoted Isa 6:9,10

Acts 28-
26 “ ‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

The bolded words show what the people DO themselves. This shows volition. Not God PREVENTING them from hearing or seeing.

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” John 12:40.

Here's another verse that has the same message:

2 Thess 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

However, here is the preceding verse:
10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

So now we get the whole story. The people that God sends a powerful delusion to "perish beause they REFUSED to love the truth and so be saved".

Then, the next verse, which scores a knock-out to Calvinism.

12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So, here we have clear proof that God condemns ALL who have not believed the truth.

So Calvinism claims that God CAUSES belief, but v.12 says God condemns all who have not believed.

So, figure it out. Calvin makes God out to be a vicious unfair God. One who CAUSES some to believe but PREVENTS others from believing and then CONDEMNS the ones He PREVENTS from believing.

That is a sicko plan, for sure.

"So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills" Romans 9:18.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Here is another verse that clearly teaches that man has free will.

God has mercy on the wicked who FORSAKE THEIR WAYS AND THOUGHTS. It is to those who TURN TO THE LORD that God WILL HAVE MERCY ON AND WHOM GOD WILL FREELY PARDON.

Did you notice that there is NO MENTION of God CAUSING these actions of FORSAKING SINS/THOUGHTS, or TURNING TO THE LORD.

But, when the wicked do those things, God will have mercy on them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And you won't answer my question about the word "prevents" for God not CAUSING some to believe.

Have you figured out your answer yet?

Does God harden hearts? The Bible says HE does. Hardened hearts do not receive the gift of faith by God. They stay hardened and God gives them over to a reprobate mind.

I've just proved that man has free will, from the Bible. You are free to accept the truth or reject the truth.

I think we're done here.

I think you were done before you started. All you have provided are talking points. No Scripture that says what your talking points claim.

You have your Arminius/Pelagius views, which I don't share. That's fine. Be blessed. 🙌

Actually, I'm closer to Calvinism than Arminianism. Their heretical view about loss of salvation is totally unpalatable to me.

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:
And you won't answer my question about the word "prevents" for God not CAUSING some to believe.

Have you figured out your answer yet?

I've just proved that man has free will, from the Bible. You are free to accept the truth or reject the truth.


I think you were done before you started. All you have provided are talking points. No Scripture that says what your talking points claim.


Actually, I'm closer to Calvinism than Arminianism. Their heretical view about loss of salvation is totally unpalatable to me.

My last to you. It's too tiring.

Election rests solely on God's sovereign decision to save whomever HE chooses. Paul illustrates this in Romans 9. God's sovereign decision to choose Jacob over Esau was not with a view of either of them doing good or evil. God's decision to save some and not others rests solely in HIS determinant grace.

There is no unrighteousness in God when HE chooses to save some and not others. The saved receive God's sovereign blessing, and the unsaved receive what they deserve. No one receives injustice.

It is God's divine right to exercise executive clemency whenever HE so desires. For example: a governor can grant executive clemency or pardon to a convicted felon. The convict can accept it or reject it. But if the governor refuses to choose to grant clemency or pardon anyone else, he's done no injustice to the others because the convicts not pardoned are serving their just punishment.

To say you exercised faith in your salvation is to say you performed an action, without which God would be wholly unable to save you. That's saying you worked for your salvation.

Man has no freedom to convert himself or to will himself to do anything spritual. Man has no ability whatever to come to Christ in faith unless it is given to him by the Father. Divine grace is needed, because man is enslaved to sin and to his natural desires. When God chooses to change the natural desire of a human heart, God's grace saves that soul. For it is by grace alone that you are saved; faith and salvation are gifts received by God's grace. Election is based exclusively on the will of a sovereign God, according to HIS pleasure and HIS good will.

Good bye. 👋

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And you won't answer my question about the word "prevents" for God not CAUSING some to believe.

Have you figured out your answer yet?

I've just proved that man has free will, from the Bible. You are free to accept the truth or reject the truth.

My last to you. It's too tiring.

I'm sure it would be very tiring trying to find verses that don't exist. There's lots of verses in the Bible to check over.

Election rests solely on God's sovereign decision to save whomever HE chooses.

Oh, stop it. The Bible tells us plainly who God chooses to save. That isn't the issue. He chooses to save those who believe.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. That's who God chooses to believe.

You see Jerry, it's quite easy to defend your view when you know the Word and have verses that say what you claim.

But the issue is about whether God CAUSES people to believe. Which you STILL haven't found any support from Scripture.

Paul illustrates this in Romans 9. God's sovereign decision to choose Jacob over Esau was not with a view of either of them doing good or evil. God's decision to save some and not others rests solely in HIS determinant grace.

This is not the issue. Of course the Bible teaches about God's election. But what the Bible DOES NOT TEACH is that He CAUSES people to believe.

Here is a very clear passage about God's election and the PURPOSE of His election:

1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Those who have open eyes and ears will easily see here that God's election is FOR SERVICE.

There is no unrighteousness in God when HE chooses to save some and not others.

Of course. He chooses to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so.

The saved receive God's sovereign blessing, and the unsaved receive what they deserve. No one receives injustice.

In the Calvinist theory, those He PREVENTS from believing DO receive injustice. It's just that you are unable to see the truth.

It is God's divine right to exercise executive clemency whenever HE so desires. For example: a governor can grant executive clemency or pardon to a convicted felon. The convict can accept it or reject it. But if the governor refuses to choose to grant clemency or pardon anyone else, he's done no injustice to the others because the convicts not pardoned are serving their just punishment.

A person is just blind as a bat if they can't see the injustice in Calvin's system of election to salvation.

How anyone can accept a God who condemns people who AREN'T ABLE to believe and He doesn't CAUSE them to believe is a real sad thing.

To say you exercised faith in your salvation is to say you performed an action, without which God would be wholly unable to save you. That's saying you worked for your salvation.

This only reveals your serious lack of understanding. When a gift is offered to a person, the "act" of receiving it is NO WORK at all.

In fact, Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 prove that faith is NOT a work.

btw, I don't use the phrase "exercise faith". The Bible doesn't use it, so I don't. It only creates a smokescreen for Calvinists to hide behind.

Man has no freedom to convert himself or to will himself to do anything spritual.

You really aren't paying any attention, are you. I never said man is free to "convert himself". What a silly idea!!

The issue in savlation is ONLY about receiving a free gift. That of eternal life. It is God alone who regenerates and converts the believer. I've already proved that regeneration and faith both occur simultaneously (which you agree), and both are THROUGH FAITH, meaning that faith precedes them both.

Man has no ability whatever to come to Christ in faith unless it is given to him by the Father.

You want to go through the verses again? I'm NOT tired of sharing the truth. Both John 5:65 and 6:44 are explained by 6:45. Do your homework.

Divine grace is needed, because man is enslaved to sin and to his natural desires.

And divine grace is offered to everyone. Titus 2:11 This PROVES that Calvinism is in error.

When God chooses to change the natural desire of a human heart, God's grace saves that soul.

Yet, you have no verses that say what you opine.

For it is by grace alone that you are saved; faith and salvation are gifts received by God's grace. Election is based exclusively on the will of a sovereign God, according to HIS pleasure and HIS good will.

You STILL can't find support for your claims in the Bible.

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:
And you won't answer my question about the word "prevents" for God not CAUSING some to believe.

Have you figured out your answer yet?

I've just proved that man has free will, from the Bible. You are free to accept the truth or reject the truth.

I'm sure it would be very tiring trying to find verses that don't exist. There's lots of verses in the Bible to check over.


Oh, stop it. The Bible tells us plainly who God chooses to save. That isn't the issue. He chooses to save those who believe.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. That's who God chooses to believe.

You see Jerry, it's quite easy to defend your view when you know the Word and have verses that say what you claim.

But the issue is about whether God CAUSES people to believe. Which you STILL haven't found any support from Scripture.


This is not the issue. Of course the Bible teaches about God's election. But what the Bible DOES NOT TEACH is that He CAUSES people to believe.

Here is a very clear passage about God's election and the PURPOSE of His election:

1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Those who have open eyes and ears will easily see here that God's election is FOR SERVICE.


Of course. He chooses to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so.


In the Calvinist theory, those He PREVENTS from believing DO receive injustice. It's just that you are unable to see the truth.


A person is just blind as a bat if they can't see the injustice in Calvin's system of election to salvation.

How anyone can accept a God who condemns people who AREN'T ABLE to believe and He doesn't CAUSE them to believe is a real sad thing.


This only reveals your serious lack of understanding. When a gift is offered to a person, the "act" of receiving it is NO WORK at all.

In fact, Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 prove that faith is NOT a work.

btw, I don't use the phrase "exercise faith". The Bible doesn't use it, so I don't. It only creates a smokescreen for Calvinists to hide behind.


You really aren't paying any attention, are you. I never said man is free to "convert himself". What a silly idea!!

The issue in savlation is ONLY about receiving a free gift. That of eternal life. It is God alone who regenerates and converts the believer. I've already proved that regeneration and faith both occur simultaneously (which you agree), and both are THROUGH FAITH, meaning that faith precedes them both.


You want to go through the verses again? I'm NOT tired of sharing the truth. Both John 5:65 and 6:44 are explained by 6:45. Do your homework.


And divine grace is offered to everyone. Titus 2:11 This PROVES that Calvinism is in error.


Yet, you have no verses that say what you opine.


You STILL can't find support for your claims in the Bible.

https://images.app.goo.gl/GZSYBcjoaTYS8KtW9

 

[FreeGrace2]

The other poster was unable to defend any of his Calvinist talking points. All he could do was repeat them endlessly, but without any Scripture that says what he kept claiming.

So it's no wonder that the conversation ended. He had nothing else to say.

But, know this, thread. A theology that claims that God saves those He CAUSES to believe who also condemns those He PREVENTS from believing is not biblical in the slightest.

There is no grace in such a theology.