Backsliding

[seed_time_harvest]

I'm sure that is sometimes, maybe often the case! But Paul goes beyond this scenario in Heb. 6 and 10 letting us know that who he is speaking of has indeed been born-again and walked away from Christ having no more faith in Him!

That would mean that the Spirit created perfect was not really perfect but sometimes perfect and sometimes not perfect depending on the corruptible seed. (flesh)

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

No one wants to make It plain and say that the corruptible seed (flesh) can corrupt what the Bible calls the Incorruptible seed (the Spirit of the just man that GOD made perfect.

Precious friend, I am Certainly Glad God Has Made it Plain And Clear!:

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin; for his
seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God.

Incorruptible spirit, Correct?

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Corruptible, Correct? Furthermore, IF I argue With God's Word Of Truth,
is not that a sin of the FLESH?

No, I would not agree they were never saved. That is ludicrous for
God alone knows the heart and judges accordingly.

Yes, TOTALLY agree, God ALONE Knows, And, In Plain And Clear
BIBLICAL Fact, "HE Has ALWAYS KNOWN them who Are HIS Own!":

2Ti 2:19a Nevertheless The Foundation of God Standeth SURE,
Having This SEAL, The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS.

Eph 1:4 According as He Hath Chosen us in HIM Before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before HIM in LOVE:

And, Then there is The BIBLICAL Opposite! ie:
HE HAS NEVER Known them who Are NOT HIS!:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW you:
depart from ME, ye that work iniquity.

So, Exactly how is it one is "Saved, ALWAYS Being KNOWN,"
And, Then LOST, NEVER Being KNOWN!???

Should not we Be VERY Careful about calling God's Word Of Truth ludicrous,
for, as you yourself said, "HE Will JUDGE us Accordingly," Correct?

God never fails in any, it's man that fails! Some will fail to continue in the faith, that is not God's fault...
...God didn't take their salvation from them, they took it from themselves.

AMEN! God NEVER fails! And, Neither Will HE ETERNALLY fail In THESE
12 DOZEN Plain And Clear Scriptural "Gift Of ETERNAL Life" Passages!:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's FREE Gift of ETERNAL Life!

Oh, when will we ever learn NOT to ignore
CHRIST's FULL Sacrifice With HIS ALL-Sufficient BLOOD!?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

There is a difference between being indwelt by the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit.

I understand the principle. I've experienced this "filling."

 

[Gardenias]

Why would God "choose" us only to allow us to let us go? Does Jesus squander His Pearls upon pigs? No, He wouldn't do such a thing.

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

Here in John 15:16 Jesus WAS talking to his disciples,for there was a purpose for each vessel he chose.

Do you not believe in free will?

I do and I believe that by the Spirit bringing conviction, not condemnation to my heart,I was able to see how The Lord saw me.
Filthy,dirty,unclean and covered in sin.....come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet,they shall be white as wool.
He is asking all to come to the living water and to taste of the bread of life.

We have the free will to say yes or no. God does not force people to serve him ( just look at Israel).
People have not been marked for heaven nor lake of fire, IT IS A CHOICE!

 

[Gardenias]

If a person can lose their salvation After their Spirit has been judged by GOD to be just and their Spirit made perfect,wouldn't saying that they can be lost forever be saying that the Incorruptible seed can be corrupted?Yes or No.

Lot of vague responses but no CLEAR yes or no responses.

You give us the ANSWER please!

 

[justbyfaith]

Precious friend, I am Certainly Glad God Has Made it Plain And Clear!:

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin; for his
seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God.

Incorruptible spirit, Correct?

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Corruptible, Correct? Furthermore, IF I argue With God's Word Of Truth,
is not that a sin of the FLESH?


Yes, TOTALLY agree, God ALONE Knows, And, In Plain And Clear
BIBLICAL Fact, "HE Has ALWAYS KNOWN them who Are HIS Own!":

2Ti 2:19a Nevertheless The Foundation of God Standeth SURE,
Having This SEAL, The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS.

Eph 1:4 According as He Hath Chosen us in HIM Before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before HIM in LOVE:

And, Then there is The BIBLICAL Opposite! ie:
HE HAS NEVER Known them who Are NOT HIS!:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW you:
depart from ME, ye that work iniquity.

So, Exactly how is it one is "Saved, ALWAYS Being KNOWN,"
And, Then LOST, NEVER Being KNOWN!???

Should not we Be VERY Careful about calling God's Word Of Truth ludicrous,
for, as you yourself said, "HE Will JUDGE us Accordingly," Correct?


AMEN! God NEVER fails! And, Neither Will HE ETERNALLY fail In THESE
12 DOZEN Plain And Clear Scriptural "Gift Of ETERNAL Life" Passages!:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's FREE Gift of ETERNAL Life!

Oh, when will we ever learn NOT to ignore
CHRIST's FULL Sacrifice With HIS ALL-Sufficient BLOOD!?

It is the teaching of gnosticism that what we do in the flesh doesn't matter because who we really are is our spirit-man and as long as we do not sin with the spirit-man, we can sin with our flesh all we want because the spirit-man is not involved.

I would say that the answer to that heresy is the concept that when we sin, we sin with our whole being and not just our flesh.

 

[Charlie24]

That would mean that the Spirit created perfect was not really perfect but sometimes perfect and sometimes not perfect.

No that's not it! Let me show you where the confusion comes in.

Heb. 10:26

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

The problem of misunderstanding lies in this verse!

"There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" means that the sacrifice of Christ is our only way of sins being forgiven. If we no longer have faith in His sacrifice we no longer have salvation.

"For if we sin willingly AFTER we have received the knowledge of truth" is not speaking of just any sin, if we have faith in Christ any sin is forgiven.

Paul is speaking of a particular sin, THE SIN! This sin is willingly transferring our faith in Christ to something else, or to no longer have faith in Christ after we have been saved.

This sin is the unforgiveable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit has been embarrassed and with faith no longer in tact, He is forced to leave.

Paul confirms this in 10:29

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Paul is telling us here that this person who has committed "the willful sin" has "trodden under foot the Son of God and counted the blood of covenant an unholy thing!

 

[Gardenias]

Precious friend, I am Certainly Glad God Has Made it Plain And Clear!:

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin; for his
seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God.

Incorruptible spirit, Correct?

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Corruptible, Correct? Furthermore, IF I argue With God's Word Of Truth,
is not that a sin of the FLESH?


Yes, TOTALLY agree, God ALONE Knows, And, In Plain And Clear
BIBLICAL Fact, "HE Has ALWAYS KNOWN them who Are HIS Own!":

2Ti 2:19a Nevertheless The Foundation of God Standeth SURE,
Having This SEAL, The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS.

Eph 1:4 According as He Hath Chosen us in HIM Before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before HIM in LOVE:

And, Then there is The BIBLICAL Opposite! ie:
HE HAS NEVER Known them who Are NOT HIS!:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW you:
depart from ME, ye that work iniquity.

So, Exactly how is it one is "Saved, ALWAYS Being KNOWN,"
And, Then LOST, NEVER Being KNOWN!???

Should not we Be VERY Careful about calling God's Word Of Truth ludicrous,
for, as you yourself said, "HE Will JUDGE us Accordingly," Correct?


AMEN! God NEVER fails! And, Neither Will HE ETERNALLY fail In THESE
12 DOZEN Plain And Clear Scriptural "Gift Of ETERNAL Life" Passages!:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's FREE Gift of ETERNAL Life!

Oh, when will we ever learn NOT to ignore
CHRIST's FULL Sacrifice With HIS ALL-Sufficient BLOOD!?

The interpretation of that scripture is ludicrous and made by man.
Shouldn't you watch what you say or believe rather than critigueing others or stating what they believe.


Out of both sides of the mouth!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I am saying the heart, soul and spirit of someone who baskslides or falls away is corrupted,unclean and as Jesus said NOT fit for the kingdom.

God's grace at our repentance is a mystery we cannot understand BC of our finite minds. We have all these perceptions that may or may not be right.

Yes the gift of God can be lost BC of corrupt sin in a soul and no I do not know at what level of sin.

Flesh is corrupt and when we give in to the flesh and continue on then I believe the heart becomes hardened and the soul is corrupted.

All know I DO NOT believe in OSAS.

I think too many people put a surety of what they think they know.
Let's look at Peter on the sea walking to Jesus,when he looked away ( lose of faith) he sank.
Sometimes the storm can be so great we cannot see as in a snow or dust storm.
We have to EXAMINE OURSELVES DAILY, and cling to him. It is easier than you think to be overtaken BC we are flesh!

John 15
New International Version

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

You give us the ANSWER please!

I would say no a born Again person cannot lose their salvation because G0D communicates with the Spirit of a Just man made perfect SPIRIT to Spirit,but by the mercies of GOD a person that has been reborn SHOULD present their body/flesh/mind a living sacrifice which Is reasonable and renew their mind to the new creation they have become.

 

[Charlie24]

I would say no a born Again person cannot lose their salvation because G0D communicates with the Spirit of a Just man made perfect SPIRIT to Spirit,but by the mercies of GOD a person that has been reborn SHOULD present their body/flesh/mind a living sacrifice which Is reasonable and renew their mind to the new creation they have become.

So you believe John Calvin's theory of irresistible grace.

Not only does man have no choice to choose Christ, he has no choice to change his mind after being chosen.

That's where "once saved always saved" came from you know!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

So you believe John Calvin's theory of irresistible grace.

Not only does man have no choice to choose Christ, he has no choice to change his mind after being chosen.

That's where "once saved always saved" came from you know!

I'm not sure why but we are not supposed to talk about Irresistible grace.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm not sure why but we are not supposed to talk about Irresistible grace.

OK, I didn't know that! Hope I didn't break any rule, it surly was not my intention.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Here in John 15:16 Jesus WAS talking to his disciples, for there was a purpose for each vessel he chose.

Do you not believe in free will?

I do and I believe that by the Spirit bringing conviction, not condemnation to my heart, I was able to see how The Lord saw me.
Filthy, dirty, unclean, and covered in sin.....come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as wool.
He is asking all to come to the living water and to taste of the bread of life.

We have the free will to say yes or no. God does not force people to serve him ( just look at Israel).
People have not been marked for heaven nor lake of fire, IT IS A CHOICE!

Regarding "free will." - The Bible is mysterious in this manner, as there are compelling passages that support both ideas. Therefore, I accept the ideas of all. In general, though, I would lean towards God being in control, not me. I believe in an Eternal Plan, and I believe that that Plan is pre-written upon a Heavenly Scroll.

Isaiah 34:15-17 NIV - "The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation."

If this is how owls and falcons are managed, how much more are His Holy Elect?

 

[Charlie24]

OK, I didn't know that! Hope I didn't break any rule, it surly was not my intention.

OK, I see now, it's the Hyper-grace clause in the rules. I'm a little slow of catching on at times!

I'll try to remember this in the future!

 

[Gardenias]

Regarding "free will." - The Bible is mysterious in this manner, as there are compelling passages that support both ideas. Therefore, I accept the ideas of all. In general, though, I would lean towards God being in control, not me. I believe in an Eternal Plan, and I believe that that Plan is pre-written upon a Heavenly Scroll.

Isaiah 34:15-17 NIV - "The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation."

If this is how owls and falcons are managed, how much more are His Holy Elect?

Okay.
Thanks for answering!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Okay.
Thanks for answering!

You bet. An opposing passage to the one provided above is:

Philippians 3:21 NLT - "He will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own, using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control."

It seems clear (to me), that we, in fact, are not totally controlled. So what is a person like me to do other than be wise and keep my mouth shut?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

When I say backsliding I mean Is It possible to turn away from GOD and be lost forever and If a born again of the SPIRIT of GOD person CAN turn away from GOD do they lose their salvation and If a person can lose their salvation after their Spirit has been made perfect by GOD then would you agree that the corruptible seed which Is the flesh can corrupt the Incorruptible Spirit of a Just man that GOD made perfect causing them to lose their salvation?It's really a yes or no question.🙂

It seems like a pretty elaborately crafted question to demand a yes or no answer. I’m still not sure what you mean by “fall away” but it’s alright ill
Just read along and see if anyone provides you a good answer God bless

 

[Pilgrimshope]

First of all let's determine what is meant by "corruptible seed and incorruptible seed."

1 Peter 1:23

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

Peter is telling us that we are born-again NOT by any virtue of descent from human parents.

But we are born-again by the incorruptible seed of Christ. He was perfect in His life and never sinned, we are granted His perfect righteousness by faith and we become the seed of God, the Children of God.

We were given this status by God through faith, if we fail to exhibit that faith and walk away from Christ, we are no longer His.

I'm not speaking of the backslider as in my previous post, but no longer having faith.

isnt peter explaining we’re born of the New Testament word of the gospel ? Including obeying it u to brotherly love

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter is explaining that as people believe and start to obey the gospel it is giving them birth into a new life and way a new heart sins washed away born children of God all based on tbier belief of the gospel preached by the lord. And sent into all the world to be preached to all people

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

being born again is to start believing the gospel Jesus preached that tells us we who believe are Gods children that’s our new birth and new life

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

When we start believing the gospel it will change what we believe and how we live what’s important and what isn’t , how we treat other people and view life ect it changes us to new and better people by faith through changing our belief to the word of truth

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we are born again by the word of truth and believing in our mind and heart

“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what the gospel teaches us that we can leave our old life at the cross and follow Jesus into eternity as Gods children an offer of a whole new life forgiven and Alive

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christians that accept the gospel Jesus preached will be born again and will change a lot in what they think and how they view life and they will bear the fruits of the spirit who accept Jesus words

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they promise life and no condemnation

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

the gospel changes completely the way we see God and also ourselves a new take on life for believers

 

[Charlie24]

isnt peter explaining we’re born of the New Testament word of the gospel ? Including obeying it u to brotherly love

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter is explaining that as people believe and start to obey the gospel it is giving them birth into a new life and way a new heart sins washed away born children of God all based on tbier belief of the gospel preached by the lord. And sent into all the world to be preached to all people

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

being born again is to start believing the gospel Jesus preached that tells us we who believe are Gods children that’s our new birth and new life

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

When we start believing the gospel it will change what we believe and how we live what’s important and what isn’t , how we treat other people and view life ect it changes us to new and better people by faith through changing our belief to the word of truth

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we are born again by the word of truth and believing in our mind and heart

“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what the gospel teaches us that we can leave our old life at the cross and follow Jesus into eternity as Gods children an offer of a whole new life forgiven and Alive

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christians that accept the gospel Jesus preached will be born again and will change a lot in what they think and how they view life and they will bear the fruits of the spirit who accept Jesus words

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they promise life and no condemnation

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

the gospel changes completely the way we see God and also ourselves a new take on life for believers

I see nothing wrong with that view, I certainly wouldn't disagree!

I see him as contrasting the things of God to the things of man.

For example when he says "for all flesh is a grass and all the glory of man as the flower of grass" he is referring to the temporal glory of man.

Then in vs. 25 he says "but the Word of the Lord endures forever."

This goes back to may original statement that he was expressing the contrast of being born-again not being of man which will perish, but being born-again of God through His word that teaches us salvation and endures forever.

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.