At what point would you as a Christian fight rather than turn the other cheek?

Kolistus · Feb 12, 2021

CS1 said:

This is also true. There are verses about that too, Jesus says leave if you are persecuted. In the OT the same concept is of avoiding the danger.

kaylagrl · Feb 13, 2021

saintrose said:

We disagree on the one issue, but that doesn't mean we hate one another. Firstly I'm so sorry for all you went through. And I'm glad that you found the Lord through all of those circumstances. I don't mean to sound like a "know it all" but I tend to be forceful on issues that I feel strongly about. And this is one of those issues. So rather than argue, just please keep an open heart and pray about it. Otherwise I wish you a blessed day sister.

saintrose · Feb 14, 2021

kaylagrl said:

I think that's a wise approach. I too tend to be forceful so you are in good company! In my later years however I'm getting to the point of stepping back and allowing God to do the leading; I just state what I believe. We each have to follow the truth where it leads us - while keeping in mind that there is a stealthy enemy who is trying to mis-lead us. He does it in many ways, including false teaching. If our hearts are humble and teachable I believe that God can then show us truth.

John 16:13

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”

God bless you in your walk Kaylagrl.

TheWaytoGo · Feb 18, 2021

saintrose said:

Churches shouldn't have anything to do with politics and world governments (Luke 9:60), but be totally devoted to their spiritual condition, and performing the works He pre-planned for us to do. A majority of people, calling themselves by His name, are in for a time of chastising, because they have been following men and not God.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

TheWaytoGo · Feb 18, 2021

saintrose said:

I think "escape" refers to having the faith that the Holy Spirit will bring us through.

Similarly, the word "remain" from 1 Thess 4:15 (that figures prominently in the Pre-Trib argument), in the Greek means "to survive", as in making it through a horrible event, or slaughter.

CS1 · Feb 18, 2021

saintrose said:

What he really thinks: Trump mocks Christians, calls them "fools" and "schmucks"

Michael Cohen's book about his years as Donald Trump's fixer is a clarion call to Christians to wake up; recognize the man many of them revere as a heavenly agent is a religious fraud; and act.
Trump loathes Christians and mocks their faith, but pretends to believe if it suits his purposes.

In Disloyal, published today, Cohen shows how Trump is a master deceiver. He quotes Trump calling Christianity and its religious practices "bullshit," then soon after masterfully posing as a fervent believer. In truth, Cohen writes, Trump's religion is unbridled lust for money and power at any cost to others.
Cohen's insider stories add significant depth to my own documentation of Trump's repeated and public denouncements of Christians as "fools," "idiots" and "schmucks."
In extensive writing and speeches, Trump has declared his life philosophy is "revenge." That stance is aggressively anti-Christian. So are Trump's often publicly expressed desires to violently attack others, mostly women, and his many remarks that he derives pleasure from ruining the lives of people over such minor matters as declining to do him a favor.
Cohen describes himself as an "active participant" with Trump in activities ranging from "golden showers in a sex club in Vegas" to corrupt deals with Russian officials.
The author offers new anecdotes about Trump's utter disregard for other people and his contempt for religious belief. Cohen's words should shock the believers who were crucial to his becoming president, provided they ever read them.
By denouncing the book Trump has ensured that many of those he has tricked into believing he is a deeply religious man will never fulfill their Christian duty to be on the lookout for deceivers.
None of the evangelicals I have interviewed in the past five years knew Trump has denounced in writing their beliefs and written of the communion host as "my little cracker."
Trump detests Christianity
Despite the irrefutable evidence that Trump detests Christianity and ridicules such core beliefs as the Golden Rule and turning the other cheek, America is filled with pastors who praise him to their flocks as a man of God. Trump himself has looked heavenward outside the White House to imply he was chosen by God.
Pastors who support Trump were scolded two years ago by Christianity Today, a magazine founded by Billy Graham, for not denouncing Trump as "profoundly immoral." Many evangelical pastors then attacked the magazine rather than following the Biblical exhortation to examine their own souls.
Cohen writes that as a young man who grew up encountering Mafioso and other crooks at a country club he fell into the "trance-like spell" of Trump, whom he describes as an utterly immoral, patriarchal mob boss and con man.
Trump is "consumed by the worldly lust for wealth and rewards," Cohen writes, which puts him at odds with the teaching of Jesus Christ about what constitutes a good life.
"Places of religious worship held absolutely no interest to him, and he possessed precisely zero personal piety in his life," Cohen writes.
Prosperity gospel embraced
Cohen explains that the only version of Christianity that could possibly interest Trump is the "prosperity gospel." That is a perverse belief that financial wealth is a sign of heavenly approval rooted in 19th Century occult beliefs that is anathema to Christian scripture.
Many actual Christians regard the prosperity gospel as evil. Christianity Today, calls it "an aberrant theology" promoted by disgraced televangelists including Jimmy Swaggart and Jim and Tammy Baker.
Early in Trump's aborted 2012 presidential campaign, Cohen writes, he was ordered to reach out to faith communities. Soon Paula White, now the White House adviser on faith, proposed a meeting at Trump Tower with evangelical leaders. Cohen writes that Trump liked White because she was blonde and beautiful.
Cohen said that among those attending were Jerry Falwell Jr., who recently resigned in disgrace over sex and greed allegations as head of Liberty University, and Creflo Dollar, who solicited donations for a $65 millioncorporate jet and who was criminally charged that year with choking his daughter. Dollar said those charges were the work of the devil.
Once the evangelical leaders took their seats, Cohen writes, Trump quickly and slickly portrayed himself as a man of deep faith. Cohen writes that this was nonsense.
Laying on hands
After soaking in Trump's deceptions, the leaders proposed laying hands on Trump. One purpose of laying on hands is to call on the Holy Spirit for divine approval.
Cohen was astounded when Trump, a germaphobe, eagerly accepted.
"If you knew Trump as I did, the vulgarian salivating over beauty contestants or mocking Roger Stone's" sexual proclivities "you would have a hard time keeping a straight face at the sight of him affecting the serious and pious mien of a man of faith. I knew I could hardly believe the performance or the fact that these folks were buying it.
"Watching Trump I could see that he knew exactly how to appeal to the evangelicals' desires and vanities – who they wanted him to be, not who he really was. Everything he was telling them about himself was absolutely untrue."
To deceive the evangelicals, Cohen writes, Trump would "say whatever they wanted to hear."
A perverse epiphany
Trump's ease at deception became for Cohen an epiphany, though a perverse one.
In that moment, Cohen writes, he realized the boss would someday become president because Trump "could lie directly to the faces of some of the most powerful religious leaders in the country and they believed him."
Later that day, Cohen writes, he met up with Trump in his office.
"Can you believe that bullshit," Trump said of the laying on of hands. "Can you believe that people believe that bullshit."
Cohen also writes about Trump's desire, expressed behind closed doors, to destroy those who offend him. Trump has said the same, though less vividly, in public.
"I love getting even," Trump declared in his book Think Big, espousing his anti-Christian philosophy: "Go for the jugular. Attack them in spades!"
He reiterated that philosophy this year at the National Prayer Breakfast. Holding up two newspapers with banner headlines reporting his Senate acquittal on impeachment charges, Trump said, "I don't like people who use their faith as justification for doing what they know is wrong. Nor do I like people who say, 'I pray for you,' when they know that that's not so."
Trump spoke after Arthur Brooks, a prominent conservative, told the breakfast meeting that "contempt is ripping our country apart."
Brooks went on: "We're like a couple on the rocks in this country…Ask God to take political contempt from your heart. And sometimes, when it's too hard, ask God to help you fake it."
Everyone in the room rose to applaud Brooks except Trump, though he finally stood up as the applause died down.
Taking the microphone, Trump said, "Arthur, I don't know if I agree with you… I don't know if Arthur is going to like what I'm going to say."
Trump then said he didn't believe in forgiveness. That is just as Cohen wrote: "Trump is not a forgiving person." Trump's words at the prayer breakfast made clear that he rejects the teaching of Jesus at Luke 6:27: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you."
The question pastors should raise in their Sunday sermons, the question Cohen's book lays before them, is how can any Christian support a man who mocks Christianity, embraces revenge as his only life philosophy and rejects that most basic Biblical teaching—forgiveness.

The above is just one of many things you can find out about Trump online. The "pastors" surrounding Trump were largely apostate and helped to mislead a lot of the nation. I believe that discernment is the biggest spiritual discipline lacking today.

1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

James 1:5 - If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

You do know this was debunked LOL smh, only aliberal Christian would resay this after it was proven false

Angela53510 · Feb 18, 2021

saintrose said:

Not to get into another eschatological debate, but most Christians in the world do not believe in the Rapture at all. Primarily because it is not in the Bible! I think it casts shame on Christians who somehow think they are going to escape what is coming.

Christians are so looked down upon. In Canada, I can go to Costco or Walmart and other smaller stores. I can go out to a restaurant. But I cannot go to church! BC just overturned an injunction against 3 churches that were meeting. The judge said our constitution preserves religious freedom. I personally would not go to church, because of my health, but people who want to go should be able to, as long as they follow the COVID health rules.

We need to start thinking about how we can live in peace, without
losing our freedoms. This escapist/rapture nonsense is just killing the message of the gospel. It's obvious to a non-believer that the rapture is hypocritical, method to avoid national and international responsibilities.

I'm only on the second page of this thread, but not one person has been in favour of pacifism. I'm not sure if I am! Something I need to study in the Bible a bit more.

Oh, Trudeau just banned a bunch of weapons in Canada. First, his party voted down an opposition motion to deal with criminals, guns and smuggling guns from the US. Then, he goes back to trying to deprive honest Canadians of their hunting rifles. But there is a catch! All the guns he is banning were already banned in 1977 by his father Trudeau 1.0. Also known as PET.

What an idiot! And none of his cabinet are as smart or informed as he is. Which is why we are at the bottom of every group (G7, G20 etc) for economy, although we used to be at the top. Part of the agenda is to bring in millions of Muslims, to change the ethnic patterns in Canada. It's not about compassion for refugees, it's about fulfilling Trudeau's commitments to globalism and to Islam. Trump was the only thing holding back the globalists. The future of North America is not looking good.

DWR · Feb 19, 2021

I see in the news where a 82 year old SC man killed an intruder that slashed his wife with a knife.
I guess some of you would have turned the other cheek while you wife was being attacked.
I applaud the old mans guts and actions. I would do the same.

JoshuaCaraccioli · Feb 20, 2021

TheIndianGirl said:

Very good and sensible point indeed. Thank you for this view on things.

More thoughts: I general I agree that statements in the Bible should be read in context, i.e. are statements that often only apply only in certain circumstances. The whole problem with the "other cheek" statement, it seems to me, indeed as you say seems to arise only BECAUSE it is taken out of context and applied to cases for which it was not intended to apply.

Of course, the Bible is often rather terse in supplying us (who live in a world which is totally different from the one around the time when the N.T. was written) with contextual clues. Which means, I think, that it is there is for *us* the task of *interpreting* the Bible; this task is, I think, one that we can not escape.

Which brings me to the following thesis: Interpreting the Bible is an essential part of reading the Bible. Taking things from the Bible completely literally is NOT the way to go. I would amplify this and even posit the bold statement: interpreting everything from the Bible in a completely literal way is not Christian, it is not in accordance with the spirit of Christianity. Or to state it in another way: I would posit that God intended us to THINK while reading the Bible, instead of expecting us to be machines who execute every statement in the Bible completely mechanically. Human interpretation is where the "soul" of the Bible is created. The Bible itself is just letters on paper. The Bible *depends* on it being read by sensible, thoughtful people.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 20, 2021

TheWaytoGo said:

Not necessarily; think of the context... the context is talking much about those who have "died / sleep through Jesus / dead in Christ" (even in their day; but this kind of thing [saints DYING] would stretch on throughout church history as well, that is, into the future from their perspective, during the entirety of when "the Church which is His body" exists on the earth)... so the contrast here would be more akin to this, below (being in contrast to that segment of "the Body" who DIE before the event being referenced), when speaking of the "we which are ALIVE and remain" would be more akin to how we say something like the following, using the word "SURVIVE":

--"The dictionary definition of “to be survived by someone” is that they are alive after a particular person dies"

...which is the very kind of CONTEXT being covered by Paul in this text.

It doesn't really need to be about anything concerning "making it through a horrible event, or slaughter," but rather, in relation to those of the believers who have preceded us IN DEATH (and that some will NOT die before the event being referenced by Paul, here).

TheWaytoGo · Feb 20, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

There is not as much weight in what words have come to mean over the years in the English language, than what the Greek word meant, at the time written, and then translated into English. The controversy sent to Paul was largely about the brethren who were being martyred and what happens to them. Some evil, or ignorant, men in the churches were saying since they died they will miss the Kingdom when Jesus comes back.

In verse 1 below, Paul reminds them that everyone who has slept in the Lord will be brought with Him - when? - in the clouds from heaven at His Second Coming. This is the "event" Paul is speaking of below, the return of Christ, as He promised. Since the living, at the time of His return, will have survived the greatest tribulation the world will ever see, the correct English translation of "survive" (not remain) tells us more vividly what the writer meant to convey about the difficulty one will experience to be alive to the end of the Tribulation when Jesus returns.

(And, in writing ...so shall we ever be with the Lord - The Holy Spirit is stating unequivocably this IS THE RETURN of Jesus for His Church, and we enter at this time, into eternity with Him on this final day of the world - which day Jesus also describes in Matt 13:39 - in case any reader wonders, there is no pre-Tribulation Rapture according to these verses):

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you *by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

*1Th 4:15 ...by the word of the Lord, This is Paul declaring that he is using Jesus' own words when He answered the Disciples' first question in Matthew 24 - "when is the timing of His Second Coming that will join ALL of us together with Him forever", and He said:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

Mat 24:30 ...shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: ...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 21, 2021

TheWaytoGo said:

I disagree with your explanation of "when" ^ (He gave the word regarding this)... and here's why:

"by the word of the Lord" (10x) -

1) 1 Samuel 3:21 -
"And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD."

2) 1 Kings 13:1 -
"And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense."

3) 1 Kings 13:5 -
"The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the LORD."

4) 1 Kings 13:9 -
"For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest."

5) 1 Kings 13:17 -
"For it was said to me by the word of the LORD, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest."

6) 1 Kings 13:18 -
"He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him."

7) 1 Kings 13:32 -
"For the saying which he cried by the word of the LORD against the altar in Bethel, and against all the houses of the high places which are in the cities of Samaria, shall surely come to pass."

8) 2 Chronicles 30:12 -
"Also in Judah the hand of God was to give them one heart to do the commandment of the king and of the princes, by the word of the LORD."

9) Psalm 33:6 -
"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth."

[and]

10) 1 Thessalonians 4:15 -
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

--I believe this ^ refers to what He had given the NT "apostles and prophets" to SAY to a particular need [the Thessalonians' need to "understand" a particular thing] in their present-day... It was recorded in Scripture because it is something the Spirit / Lord also intends for "us" to know / understand (1Cor2:9-10a,16b)... via the NT "apostles and prophets" (when written together this way, in this order, always speaks of the NT "apostles and prophets")... this particular "word/revelation" being from the "ascended and glorified Lord Jesus Christ," as I understand it. [Once "hidden in God" (in ages past), but NOW "revealed..."... See again 1Cor2:8 "for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"]

My two cents = )

TheWaytoGo · Feb 21, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

I disagree with your explanation of "when" ^ (He gave the word regarding this)... and here's why:

"by the word of the Lord" (10x) -

10) 1 Thessalonians 4:15 -
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

--I believe this ^ refers to what He had given the NT "apostles and prophets" to SAY to a particular need [the Thessalonians' need to "understand" a particular thing] in their present-day... It was recorded in Scripture because it is something the Spirit / Lord also intends for "us" to know / understand (1Cor2:9-10a,16b)... via the NT "apostles and prophets" (when written together this way, in this order, always speaks of the NT "apostles and prophets")... this particular "word/revelation" being from the "ascended and glorified Lord Jesus Christ," as I understand it. [Once "hidden in God" (in ages past), but NOW "revealed..."... See again 1Cor2:8 "for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"]
My two cents = )[
/QUOTE]

Instead of "when" Jesus answered the Disciples first question in Matthew 24, I could change it to "as" He answered their question. He answered their question right after they asked it, not after He was resurrected, but as they were sitting on the Mount of Olives. In 1 Thess 4, Paul is reiterating what Jesus said to the Disciples in Matthew 24. (Sorry, but I may not be understanding what you are saying about "when").

Also, not sure I undertand about "this" pertaining to only the Thessalonians, and not to us, or not to them, and only to us?

But, either way, 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a complete picture of Christ's Second Coming in the clouds (with the souls of the dead in Christ), the First Resurrection and the Rapture. In comparing scripture with scripture, these passages are confirmed exactly by the words of Jesus, during His ministry on earth during the Olivet Discourse, and further by Paul and Peter in their epistles, and John in Revelation.

Here is another picture of the resurrection of the dead saints, and the Rapture of the living, at Christ's Second Coming that Paul tells in a different way, but describing the same Second Coming He wrote of in the 1 Thess 4 verses:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

1Co 15:24 *then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

*Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

When will the end of the age happen? - At His Second Coming

See above 1Co 15:23-24 - when those who are Christ's at His coming are resurrected, then the end of the age comes, and we are with Him forever more - this Corinithians timing matches perfectly with 1 Thess 4:17 - when the souls who descend from Heaven with Jesus have their bodies resurrected, followed by the living ...so shall we ever be with the Lord. In numerous Scripture accounts of this reunion of the saints and forever being with the Lord, it is always at His coming, or Second Coming - which describe the same day.

Every eye will see Him split the blackened sky, emerge in the clouds of heaven, with just His Glory lighting up the planets, the stars, and bathing the earth below, the dead bodies in Christ will be raised and rejoin their souls in the air, the living who survived the Tribulation will then be raised, and all the saints will instantly become like Him (receive glorified bodies - 1 John 3:2) and those on the whole earth below, already bundled to be burned (Matt 13:30, Mat 13:40) will mourn when they realize He was the Truth they refused to believe, and now it is too late!

Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

TMS · Feb 21, 2021

Violence is not needed when God can send an Angel to protect, Fighting with our words and actions in a way that reveals the Spirit of God is what we should do. That might mean turning the other cheek. Daniel in the lions den, and Jesus before the soldiers, are a good example. Jesus could have called for Angels and killed everyone.
Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

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At what point would you as a Christian fight rather than turn the other cheek?

Kolistus

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saintrose

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CS1

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