Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[Dino246]

I know. And now we are examining the validity of that position by exegeting the passage. I am now asking you to tell me the meaning of a single word in this passage ("for"). ...

Yet you will not tell me what "for" means contextually. You will not admit the meaning of this word in context because it is consistent with Paul's other arguments that link authority to origination, thus destroying your position.

I believe that it is explanatory rather than causative. It was a letter to Timothy, not a letter to a local church. Paul's words would have made sense to Timothy because he also knew the context, and Paul didn't spell it out.

I am aware that you think it is a non sequiter. But you have put words in my mouth. I have not said what you are calling a non sequiter. I am only appealing to the words that Paul wrote:
"I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man because Adam was formed first..."
you are calling Paul's statement a non sequiter, not mine.

Actually, I'm calling your understanding of it a non sequitur. It makes perfect sense to me, because I read it with the cultural context in mind.

You have to remember my friend, that certain logical fallacies do not apply to the Bible as they do to our own words.
I have demonstrated this in these posts:

That is true. However, I don't accept your application of that to 1 Timothy 2.

So we both agree on this point. I am saying that we do not need to interpret anything Paul said in 1 Tim 2:12-14. He meant exactly what he said.

I agree that he meant what he wrote. I don't agree that there is no need for interpretation.

 

[Scribe]

Churches today have gone feminine seeking after feelings instead of truth. It’s one reason bethel and furtick are so popular.

What kind of church do you attend?

 

[Toto]

Nothing was taken out of context.

Since you won't take ownership of your words, I see no reason to take seriously

What kind of church do you attend?

Hi Scribe. Do you believe that women should be pastors?

 

[John146]

What kind of church do you attend?

Baptist

 

[John146]

What kind of church do you attend?

You can see it in many titles...the Journey, the Seekers, the Point, the Bridge, Elevate, etc...

doing church together...doing life together...rhythm music, lights, fog machines, seeker friendly, blah, blah, blah...

 

[Diakonos]

I believe that it is explanatory rather than causative. It was a letter to Timothy, not a letter to a local church. Paul's words would have made sense to Timothy because he also knew the context, and Paul didn't spell it out.

Actually, I'm calling your understanding of it a non sequitur. It makes perfect sense to me, because I read it with the cultural context in mind.

That is true. However, I don't accept your application of that to 1 Timothy 2.

I agree that he meant what he wrote. I don't agree that there is no need for interpretation.

At this point, you aren't even making Biblical arguments anymore; you are just "not accepting" mine. There is no Biblical support for your explanation of the passage. I have provided dozens of supporting Scripture for the connection between authority and origination.

...but you don't accept things that don't make sense to you.

“Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.” (Proverbs 3:5)
“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)
“‘Call to Me and I will answer you, and I will tell you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’” (Jeremiah 33:3)

This is a Biblical trend, that God's ways are beyond our understanding. And we are commanded to trust in His Word and obey, even if we don't understand. I hope you don't continue to respond to Scripture this way, and so repel the Spirit of Truth. If you do, you will not learn much.
The soulish man lives according to what makes sense to his soul, but the spiritual man accepts the words of the Spirit.

 

[Dino246]

At this point, you aren't even making Biblical arguments anymore; you are just "not accepting" mine. There is no Biblical support for your explanation of the passage.

Looking at the cultural context is part of sound exegesis.

...but you don't accept things that don't make sense to you.

I don't accept things that are logically fallacious.

This is a Biblical trend, that God's ways are beyond our understanding. And we are commanded to trust in His Word and obey, even if we don't understand.

There is a difference between accepting what you do not yet understand, and recognizing that something does not make sense.

I'm not interested in reading any more of your condemnatory remarks. Have a nice day.

 

[Scribe]

Hi Scribe. Do you believe that women should be pastors?

I believe women DO pastor. I believe they should do what God calls them to do.

The church I attend was started by a woman evangelist in the 1920s who also pastored it for the first two years. Then a woman who started Zion Bible College, (now Northpoint), pastored it and after that it has been pastored by men. Many pastors are currently pastoring churches in America that came out of this church. My point is that God uses women however He wants to use them and I can tell when the Spirit is empowering someone and when He is not. I would attend a church where a woman was empowered by the Spirit rather than one where a male pastor was not empowered by the Spirit and we all know that there are many of those.

I believe God used women in leadership in the churches during the time Paul wrote and there is enough in the New Testament to support that.

I believe that God poured His Spirit out upon women on the day of Pentecost for the purpose of receiving power from on high to be a witness of Jesus Christ to Teach all nations and to baptize them in the name of Jesus.

The following is a simple presentation of how my fellowship views women roles in ministry.

https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/The-Role-of-Women-in-Ministry

 

[Truth7t7]

I believe women DO pastor. I believe they should do what God calls them to do.

The church I attend was started by a woman evangelist in the 1920s who also pastored it for the first two years. Then a woman who started Zion Bible College, (now Northpoint), pastored it and after that it has been pastored by men. Many pastors are currently pastoring churches in America that came out of this church. My point is that God uses women however He wants to use them and I can tell when the Spirit is empowering someone and when He is not. I would attend a church where a woman was empowered by the Spirit rather than one where a male pastor was not empowered by the Spirit and we all know that there are many of those.

I believe God used women in leadership in the churches during the time Paul wrote and there is enough in the New Testament to support that.

I believe that God poured His Spirit out upon women on the day of Pentecost for the purpose of receiving power from on high to be a witness of Jesus Christ to Teach all nations and to baptize them in the name of Jesus.

The following is a simple presentation of how my fellowship views women roles in ministry.

https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/The-Role-of-Women-in-Ministry

If thats the case, you believe God has called women to be Silent, Subjected, and Obedient in the Church

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

2 Timothy 3:-3-5KJV
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[peldom10]

Awww . . . thanks for telling me that I'm not saved!

You're so kind.

If you are alive on this earth you are not..."saved"....If you have repented, been baptised and are living a righteous life according to God's commandments then you are ....born again.

We are not saved until God passes judgement on us and declares us to be saved.....it is appointed unto man once to die (physical death) and then the judgement.
I doubt Christ is happy with us when we say we are ...saved....because that precludes His right to judge us. Remember....ed...means permanent, history.

 

[Scribe]

You can see it in many titles...the Journey, the Seekers, the Point, the Bridge, Elevate, etc...

doing church together...doing life together...rhythm music, lights, fog machines, seeker friendly, blah, blah, blah...

Aren't you a joy to be around.

 

[peldom10]

I believe women DO pastor. I believe they should do what God calls them to do.

The church I attend was started by a woman evangelist in the 1920s who also pastored it for the first two years. Then a woman who started Zion Bible College, (now Northpoint), pastored it and after that it has been pastored by men. Many pastors are currently pastoring churches in America that came out of this church. My point is that God uses women however He wants to use them and I can tell when the Spirit is empowering someone and when He is not. I would attend a church where a woman was empowered by the Spirit rather than one where a male pastor was not empowered by the Spirit and we all know that there are many of those.

I believe God used women in leadership in the churches during the time Paul wrote and there is enough in the New Testament to support that.

I believe that God poured His Spirit out upon women on the day of Pentecost for the purpose of receiving power from on high to be a witness of Jesus Christ to Teach all nations and to baptize them in the name of Jesus.

The following is a simple presentation of how my fellowship views women roles in ministry.

https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/The-Role-of-Women-in-Ministry

You may opine such but, per the Bible you are wrong.

 

[peldom10]

Baptist

I was a Baptist many years ago as a youngin , but that denomination is pitifully wrong when judged righteously by God's word.

 

[Truth7t7]

We are not saved until God passes judgement on us and declares us to be saved.....it is appointed unto man once to die (physical death) and then the judgement.

Once you hear and believe the gospel, and the Holy Spiritsealsthe believer, it's a done deal 100% saved until the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[peldom10]

Once you hear and believe the gospel, and the Holy Spiritsealsthe believer, it's a done deal 100% saved until the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The Bible is correct....providing we stay born again until..."the end". Keep it in context.

Wow...your first comment above could not be more incorrect. The Bible says nothing near that conclusion.
You must believe in OSAS...while on earth.

 

[Diakonos]

If you are alive on this earth you are not..."saved"....If you have repented, been baptised and are living a righteous life according to God's commandments then you are ....born again.

We are not saved until God passes judgement on us and declares us to be saved.....it is appointed unto man once to die (physical death) and then the judgement.
I doubt Christ is happy with us when we say we are ...saved....because that precludes His right to judge us. Remember....ed...means permanent, history.

Our sins were judged on the cross. You might benefit from a study of the 4 main judgments in the Bible.

 

[Scribe]

You may opine such but, per the Bible you are wrong.

Gordon Fee suggested that reading both these papers would give someone both sides of the argument.

For those who believe the scriptures do not allow a woman to pastor a church you will find that Douglas Moo has said everything that can be said on the subject and will probably be able to present your case much better in the future as a result of reading this article. And I wish you would because many are not doing a good job of presenting their case and you could take a lesson from Moo in how it is done if you really want to convince someone.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

In my opinion Payne does a better job of presenting a proper hermeneutic and thoroughly exposes the weakness in Moos interpretations and if one is intellectually honest they might change their mind and agree with Payne over Moo.

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

But whether you change your mind or not I think every one who reads both sides will agree that it was worth reading and that they learned something new as a result. Both sides should be better equipped to present their hermeneutic.

I mean if we are going to debate this let's do it in such a way that everyone grows a little in the word instead of immature banter.

I look forward to any feedback from those who read these papers.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Now that we're understanding that PASTORING is a "GIFT", and not an OFFICE, now we can get to the Facts of the Matter.

Fact #1. Pastoring is a GIFT of the Holy Ghost. supportive scripture, OT, first. Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"
Joel 2:29 "And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit."

A. Women can preach, "and your daughters shall prophesy" prophesying is not just foretelling a future event which "Prophet" do, but prophet also PREACH. was not Jonah a prophet? yes, so did Jonah preach? supportive scripture, Jonah 3:1 "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,"
Jonah 3:2 "Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee." the preaching was the foretelling of the city future, salvation, or destruction. well women, are prophets, and a prophet ... "PREACH", so women do preach.

but what about women in the work of Pastoring? answer, same scriptures, which was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, and the out pouring of the Spiritual Gifts. Acts 2:14 "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:"
Acts 2:15 "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day."
Acts 2:16 "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;"
Acts 2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"
Acts 2:18 "And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"

Now, how is this in response to women being "PASTORS?" here's why.... the Spiritual Gifts which was poured out on Pentecost are listed in 1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal."
1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"
1 Corinthians 12:9 "To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"
1 Corinthians 12:10 "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:"
1 Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

FACT #2. note, in verse 10, Peter spoke in divers kinds of tongues on the day of pentecost, but here's the "REVELATION GIFT", of women Pastors. verse 8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"
lets break it down, a word of WISDOM is UNDERSTANDING, Proverbs 1:2 "To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;" so if I speak a WORD of WISDOM to you, you will get "UNDERSTANDING", now a Word of KNOWLEDGE, self explanatory, is KNOWLEDGE, so a WORD of Wisdom gives "KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING. Proverbs 2:6 "For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." now what are pastors for? answer, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."

so Pastoring is a "GIFT" of the Holy Spirit, and remember in Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

all flesh is not JUST "MALE" flesh with the Gifts, for if God just give the male the Gift of Pastoring, then he's a respecter of Persons, (which he is NOT). for in his BODY, there is neither Male, nor female. scripture, Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
God do not discriminate. as sid before, for the sake of the discussion, a Holy Ghost filled "Female", is no less that a Holy Ghost filled "Male", for the Gift is nether the males, nor the Females, but of God.

so the TRUE FACTS is, Women can preach, teach, and PASTOR/BISHOP, just as men. it's God choice who he ordains in his Church, that he bought and paid for. not our choice.

PICJAG,
101G.

PS, a re-read of this post might be need for clarity, and for edification of the saints.

I don't need to reread this post as it is very clearly an example of making scripture say what you want it to say.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Bible is correct....providing we stay born again until..."the end". Keep it in context.

Wow...your first comment above could not be more incorrect. The Bible says nothing near that conclusion.
You must believe in OSAS...while on earth.

The bible clearly teaches, once the believer is saved they are sealed by the Holy Spirit, until the day of redemption, a fact!

Confession, Belief, Salvation, Sealed, Eternal Security.

(Eternal Security)

Roman's 10:9-10KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

(Eternal Security)

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

(Eternal Security)

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(Eternal Security)

John 10:27-30KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

 

[Truth7t7]

Gordon Fee suggested that reading both these papers would give someone both sides of the argument.

For those who believe the scriptures do not allow a woman to pastor a church you will find that Douglas Moo has said everything that can be said on the subject and will probably be able to present your case much better in the future as a result of reading this article. And I wish you would because many are not doing a good job of presenting their case and you could take a lesson from Moo in how it is done if you really want to convince someone.

Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Moo on 1 Timothy 2 vv 11-15.pdf

In my opinion Payne does a better job of presenting a proper hermeneutic and thoroughly exposes the weakness in Moos interpretations and if one is intellectually honest they might change their mind and agree with Payne over Moo.

Philip B. Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "I Timothy 2:12-15; Meaning and Significance
https://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Philip Payne Libertarian Women.PDF

But whether you change your mind or not I think every one who reads both sides will agree that it was worth reading and that they learned something new as a result. Both sides should be better equipped to present their hermeneutic.

I mean if we are going to debate this let's do it in such a way that everyone grows a little in the word instead of immature banter.

I look forward to any feedback from those who read these papers.

(With All Respect, In Love)

No need to read a paper on a man's opinion, it's before your eyes, 6th grade reading comprehension (Max)

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

The Acts Of Apostasy Have Been Foretold

2 Timothy 4:3-4KJV
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 3:-3-5KJV
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.