Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

[GWH]

Agree, we should not edit God's Word so when God says all He means that, no need to edit it to say, except this one or that one because we are not God.

I disagree that the NT deletes the Old Testament. Jesus and the apostles were reading and lived by the OT, called it scripture and we are told

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

There's that word again that people always want to edit....."all" means just that.

Jesus said, I'll quote it again because if Jesus is the WAY- following His instructions is instrumental

Mat 4: 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

So instead of deleting the Words of God out of the OT, Jesus said in the NT to live by them.

There are some changes to the NC based on what God said.

The New Covenant is established on better promises

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

So our focus should be seeking these better promises because the NC still has God's law- His Old Covenant- written on stone Exo 34:28 now written as tablet in the heart 2 Corinthians 3:3 Heb 8:10 based on Him doing -He says "I will" through the power of the Holy Spirit by our love and cooperation John 14:15-18

It's still a sin to break God's law 1 John 3:4 and the whole reason Jesus came, to save us from our sin Mat 1:21 not save us in sin. He wants a complete transformation why the law of God is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 because it shows us God's righteousness Psa 119:172 that we have none. We receive His righteousness though our relationship with Christ because He is the only one who was ever able to obey His law. And if we are right with God will we be rebelling against God's law? God forbid! Rom 8:7-8 our faith upholds the law Rom 3:31 and if we are in Christ we too must die of sin and walk in newness with Him and live how Jesus lived. Did Jesus break the commandments? Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Yes, and if we have His righteousness, we will too through His strength. Phil 4:13 His version of His commandments- not ours.

So our focus should be on the better promises....

1. God is the one doing now enabling to keep His law Heb 8:10 John 14:15-18
2. Jesus is now our High Priest- the law of Moses said the priesthood had to come from Levi- the law changed to accommodate Jesus who came from the tribe of Judea
3. All fleshy ordinances (not commandments) that had to do with sin offerings, annual holy feasts days, annual sabbath(s) feast days and festivals which all pointed to Jesus who because our sacrificial Passover Lamb ended Heb 9:10-11, Eph 2:15 Col 2:14-17
4. So in the New Covenant instead of taking an animal for a sin offering, which is breaking God's law (His version) we can go directly to Jesus who paid the penalty for our sin, and is longsuffering and longs for His children to be truly sorry for our sins because it causes our Savior so much pain and shows we serve another 1 John 3:8 Rom 6:16 but if we come to Him ,He is so faithful to forgive us and cleans us of all sin and unrighteousness, but when He heals He says go and sin no more. Through our faith and cooperation in Christ we can be reconciled Rev 22:14

SB,

I am glad we agree re editing, but your saying "disagree" re deleting did not reference what I had said.

Amen re 2 Tim 3:16 & Mat 4: 4.

Yes, there are some changes to the NC based on what God said in the NT that is established on better promises per Heb 8:6.

Yes, the NC still has God's law, but it is new and improved by Christ's law of love (JN 13:34-35) written in the heart (2 CR 3:3 & HB 8:10), and it is a sin to break that law in all of its derivative expressions, such as MT 6:20-48 & GL 5:19-21.

Yes, hunger and thirst for righteousness (MT 5:6) is the goal of every Christian who understands the Gospel fully.

God's Spirit provides the way to cooperate with His will/law, but our will/faith must persevere in order to learn more of GW (JN 14:15).

Amen re: All fleshy ordinances (not commandments) that had to do with sin offerings, annual holy feasts days, annual sabbath(s) feast days and festivals which all pointed to Jesus who because our sacrificial Passover Lamb ended Heb 9:10-11, Eph 2:15 Col 2:14-17. These ordinances are sometimes referred to as the sacrificial system that was designed to keep Israel separate from Gentiles until it provided Messiah for everyone.

Yes, when those who have repented and been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ confess their post-conversion sins, we should confess them so that God will forgive those as well as sins we may not be aware of. (1JN 1:8-9)

LIC

 

[ResidentAlien]

Interesting article from your website GWH. https://truthseekersfellowship.com/ecumenical-monotheism/

 

[SabbathBlessing]

SB,

I am glad we agree re editing, but your saying "disagree" re deleting did not reference what I had said.

Amen re 2 Tim 3:16 & Mat 4: 4.

Yes, there are some changes to the NC based on what God said in the NT that is established on better promises per Heb 8:6.

Yes, the NC still has God's law, but it is new and improved by Christ's law of love (JN 13:34-35) written in the heart (2 CR 3:3 & HB 8:10), and it is a sin to break that law in all of its derivative expressions, such as MT 6:20-48 & GL 5:19-21.

Yes, hunger and thirst for righteousness (MT 5:6) is the goal of every Christian who understands the Gospel fully.

God's Spirit provides the way to cooperate with His will/law, but our will/faith must persevere in order to learn more of GW (JN 14:15).

Amen re: All fleshy ordinances (not commandments) that had to do with sin offerings, annual holy feasts days, annual sabbath(s) feast days and festivals which all pointed to Jesus who because our sacrificial Passover Lamb ended Heb 9:10-11, Eph 2:15 Col 2:14-17. These ordinances are sometimes referred to as the sacrificial system that was designed to keep Israel separate from Gentiles until it provided Messiah for everyone.

Yes, when those who have repented and been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ confess their post-conversion sins, we should confess them so that God will forgive those as well as sins we may not be aware of. (1JN 1:8-9)

LIC

How can you improve on perfection?

Psa 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, [a]converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

Our perfect Savior would be impossible to write an imperfect law, written by His own finger. Exo 31:18 why the NC is not established on new laws

To claim 9 of the Ten Commandments was written in the NC and the one commandment that God said Remember, the only day God blessed and sanctified, is the commandment God "forgot" to write in our hearts and minds? Once God blesses, man can't reverse so where is the thus saith the Lord to make your argument. Following man and their traditions leading away from breaking God's commandments, is not a good idea if we are going to believe the teachings of Jesus in the NC. Mat 15:3-14 hence why He said not to break or teach others to break the least of these as one would be in fear of sin and Judgement Mat 5:19-30

Maybe its not written on your heart, but it is written on the hearts of everyone we are to follow. God Gen 2:1-3, Jesus Luke 4:16, the apostles Acts 18:4 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 etc etc and His faithful followers Luke 23:56

Seems like the crowd to follow instead of following man, especially when we were warned this would happen Dan 7:25

Keeping Sunday is a commandment of the Catholic Church- Sabbath-keeping is a commandment of God. God's people keep God's commandments- His version, not what was changed by man the popular crowd follows.

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Q. Have you any other proofs that they(Protestants) are not guided by the Scripture?
A. Yes; so many, that we cannot admit more than a mere specimen into this small work. They reject much that is clearly contained in Scripture, and profess more that is nowhere discoverable in that Divine Book.
Q. Give some examples of both?
A. They should, if the Scripture were their only rule, wash the feet of one another, according to the command of Christ, in the 13th chap. of St. John; —they should keep, not the Sunday, but the Saturday, according to the commandment, "Remember thou keep holy the SABBATH-day;" for this commandment has not, in Scripture, been changed or abrogated;...
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 101 Imprimatuer


Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.
—Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

Sunday is a Catholic institution, and... can be defended only on Catholic principles.... From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.
—Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900

Rome can't save us only Christ can. We ought to obey God over man.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I will begin by asking the following philosophical question: Is there some truth which is not debatable

Only a fool would think that out of all the things that are in this world (from the largest things that require distance to see And from the smallest thing that require a microscope to see and even things so small that is it is invisible to mans ability to perceive it ,and is having an effect on other things in this world) are just random?
Some intelligent Einstein might not believe in GOD because they can’t perceive him with one of his/her 5 senses:five senses of the human body include vision, hearing, touch, taste and smell.

but they can’t say that it’s not there because they CAN perceive it with one or more of their 5 sense knowledge.

All of creation declares that there is a GOD.

 

[GWH]

How can you improve on perfection?

Psa 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, [a]converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

Our perfect Savior would be impossible to write an imperfect law, written by His own finger. Exo 31:18 why the NC is not established on new laws

To claim 9 of the Ten Commandments was written in the NC and the one commandment that God said Remember, the only day God blessed and sanctified, is the commandment God "forgot" to write in our hearts and minds? Once God blesses, man can't reverse so where is the thus saith the Lord to make your argument. Following man and their traditions leading away from breaking God's commandments, is not a good idea if we are going to believe the teachings of Jesus in the NC. Mat 15:3-14 hence why He said not to break or teach others to break the least of these as one would be in fear of sin and Judgement Mat 5:19-30

Maybe its not written on your heart, but it is written on the hearts of everyone we are to follow. God Gen 2:1-3, Jesus Luke 4:16, the apostles Acts 18:4 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 etc etc and His faithful followers Luke 23:56

Seems like the crowd to follow instead of following man, especially when we were warned this would happen Dan 7:25

Keeping Sunday is a commandment of the Catholic Church- Sabbath-keeping is a commandment of God. God's people keep God's commandments- His version, not what was changed by man the popular crowd follows.

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Q. Have you any other proofs that they(Protestants) are not guided by the Scripture?
A. Yes; so many, that we cannot admit more than a mere specimen into this small work. They reject much that is clearly contained in Scripture, and profess more that is nowhere discoverable in that Divine Book.
Q. Give some examples of both?
A. They should, if the Scripture were their only rule, wash the feet of one another, according to the command of Christ, in the 13th chap. of St. John; —they should keep, not the Sunday, but the Saturday, according to the commandment, "Remember thou keep holy the SABBATH-day;" for this commandment has not, in Scripture, been changed or abrogated;...
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 101 Imprimatuer


Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.
—Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

Sunday is a Catholic institution, and... can be defended only on Catholic principles.... From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.
—Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900

Rome can't save us only Christ can. We ought to obey God over man.

SB,

Jesus is perfect and NT teaching is inspired by His Holy Spirit, but we are imperfect and need to improve our understanding.

God did not forget to reaffirm the Sabbath law, he remembered to inspire the NT writers to reaffirm moral law but not the optional commandments that Paul and James agreed the Jews could continue to practice as long as it did not contradict the Gospel law of love.

Jesus DID break the Sabbath law, which was what got him into hot water with the Pharisees.

What GW teaches is what matters, not any denomination or individual.

As I read GW I learned sufficient evidence that the Baptist doctrine of OSAS was not right if understood to contradict the clear biblical teaching of the possibility of apostasy.

 

[GWH]

Only a fool would think that out of all the things that are in this world (from the largest things that require distance to see And from the smallest thing that require a microscope to see and even things so small that is it is invisible to mans ability to perceive it ,and is having an effect on other things in this world) are just random?
Some intelligent Einstein might not believe in GOD because they can’t perceive him with one of his/her 5 senses:five senses of the human body include vision, hearing, touch, taste and smell.

but they can’t say that it’s not there because they CAN perceive it with one or more of their 5 sense knowledge.

All of creation declares that there is a GOD.

Amen! All other miracles are downhill from the creation miracle, which leads to the recreation or resurrection miracle as a bookend.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

SB,

Jesus is perfect and NT teaching is inspired by His Holy Spirit, but we are imperfect and need to improve our understanding.

God did not forget to reaffirm the Sabbath law, he remembered to inspire the NT writers to reaffirm moral law but not the optional commandments that Paul and James agreed the Jews could continue to practice as long as it did not contradict the Gospel law of love.

Jesus DID break the Sabbath law, which was what got him into hot water with the Pharisees.

What GW teaches is what matters, not any denomination or individual.

As I read GW I learned sufficient evidence that the Baptist doctrine of OSAS was not right if understood to contradict the clear biblical teaching of the possibility of apostasy.

I do think we need to improve on our understanding.

Jesus did not break the Sabbath in the 4th commandment, He broke the sabbath of the Pharisees which they added their own laws to God’s law, something we were warned not to do and they broke God’s commandments in favor of their own traditions- something Jesus condemned Mat 15:1-14. Our righteousness has to exceed the Pharisees otherwise we too will not see heaven Mat 5:19-30 Had Jesus broke the Sabbath in the 4th commandment, He would have been a sinner and could not be our Savior. So no, you can’t in one breath claim Jesus is perfect and in the other claim He broke God’s law. It’s a terrible misunderstanding of the scriptures, that basically makes Jesus a sinner and hypocrite as He condemned the Pharisees for not keeping the commandments of God quoting from the Ten, so no it would not be okay for Him to do and sin, so while condemning others. Jesus had no sin.

This is one of the saddest teachings by some people that Jesus broke the Sabbath therefore we can too. It’s actually a doctrine of Another spirit. The Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath and accused Him of not being equal to God, siding with them is not who I would want to side with, the people responsible for crucifying Jesus without cause.

Jesus in His own Words said He did not sin and said in His own Words He kept the commandments John 15:10 which includes the Sabbath that He also kept Luke 4:16

John 8: 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[SabbathBlessing]

SB,

Jesus is perfect and NT teaching is inspired by His Holy Spirit, but we are imperfect and need to improve our understanding.

God did not forget to reaffirm the Sabbath law, he remembered to inspire the NT writers to reaffirm moral law but not the optional commandments that Paul and James agreed the Jews could continue to practice as long as it did not contradict the Gospel law of love.

Jesus DID break the Sabbath law, which was what got him into hot water with the Pharisees.

What GW teaches is what matters, not any denomination or individual.

As I read GW I learned sufficient evidence that the Baptist doctrine of OSAS was not right if understood to contradict the clear biblical teaching of the possibility of apostasy.

Jesus was doing good on the Sabbath by helping people in need, can you please point out where doing good is a violation of the Sabbath commandment? Verse please. This shows me that one does not understand the Sabbath commandment, or Jesus, that He would in any way violate His Fathers laws, violate His own righteousness Psa 119:172, that is everlasting Psa 119:142, violate His own Truth Psa 119:172. The Ten Commandments is what every man will be judged by regardless if we accept them or not. Mat 5:19-30 James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15. I would not want to remove anything Jesus says He covers under His mercy Exo 20:6 but we have free will. Had Jesus not been tempted in all ways just as we are Heb 4:15, but overcame, we would all be lost.

 

[GWH]

I do think we need to improve on our understanding.

Jesus did not break the Sabbath in the 4th commandment, He broke the sabbath of the Pharisees which they added their own laws to God’s law, something we were warned not to do and they broke God’s commandments in favor of their own traditions- something Jesus condemned Mat 15:1-14. Our righteousness has to exceed the Pharisees otherwise we too will not see heaven Mat 5:19-30 Had Jesus broke the Sabbath in the 4th commandment, He would have been a sinner and could not be our Savior. So no, you can’t in one breath claim Jesus is perfect and in the other claim He broke God’s law. It’s a terrible misunderstanding of the scriptures, that basically makes Jesus a sinner and hypocrite as He condemned the Pharisees for not keeping the commandments of God quoting from the Ten, so no it would not be okay for Him to do and sin, so while condemning others. Jesus had no sin.

This is one of the saddest teachings by some people that Jesus broke the Sabbath therefore we can too. It’s actually a doctrine of Another spirit. The Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath and accused Him of not being equal to God, siding with them is not who I would want to side with, the people responsible for crucifying Jesus without cause.

Jesus in His own Words said He did not sin and said in His own Words He kept the commandments John 15:10 which includes the Sabbath that He also kept Luke 4:16

John 8: 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

The occasion when Jesus and his disciples broke the Sabbath is in MT 12:1-12, but MT 15:1-14 teaches that Pharisaic people nullify Christ's Lordship because their tradition trumps learning GW, which is exactly Paul's concern in CL 2:16 with regard to Sabbath law, and that is what you do when you say the Lord of the Sabbath cannot amend it. Hopefully this improves our understanding.

Luke 4:16-19 records the very moment that Jesus fulfilled the OC including Sabbath law, and HB 7:18-10:1 explains that the Gospel supersedes the former Law with a better hope of perfection (7:18-19).

 

[GWH]

Jesus was doing good on the Sabbath by helping people in need, can you please point out where doing good is a violation of the Sabbath commandment? Verse please. This shows me that one does not understand the Sabbath commandment, or Jesus, that He would in any way violate His Fathers laws, violate His own righteousness Psa 119:172, that is everlasting Psa 119:142, violate His own Truth Psa 119:172. The Ten Commandments is what every man will be judged by regardless if we accept them or not. Mat 5:19-30 James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15. I would not want to remove anything Jesus says He covers under His mercy Exo 20:6 but we have free will. Had Jesus not been tempted in all ways just as we are Heb 4:15, but overcame, we would all be lost.

Okay, EX31:14, "Observe the Sabbath... Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death."
EX 35:2b, "...Whover does any work on the Sabbath is to be put to death."

Do you have a verse where Jesus affirms this law?
BTW, Jesus also amends a few other laws in MT 5.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

The occasion when Jesus and his disciples broke the Sabbath is in MT 12:1-12, but MT 15:1-14 teaches that Pharisaic people nullify Christ's Lordship because their tradition trumps learning GW, which is exactly Paul's concern in CL 2:16 with regard to Sabbath law, and that is what you do when you say the Lord of the Sabbath cannot amend it. Hopefully this improves our understanding.

Luke 4:16-19 records the very moment that Jesus fulfilled the OC including Sabbath law, and HB 7:18-10:1 explains that the Gospel supersedes the former Law with a better hope of perfection (7:18-19).

It’s not my understanding that needs improvement.

So basically you are claiming the Pharisees nullified Christ Lordship because of their traditions? What? I worry for you.


Here, let me share what Jesus said to the Pharisees about keeping their traditions over obeying God’s commandments quoting right from the Ten Commandments Jesus said not to teach or break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19-30 and if our righteousness does not exceed the Pharisees we too will not see heaven Mat 5:20


Mat 15:1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He (Jesus) answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; Found in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:12 and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

If this doesn’t make one shake in their boots then, they are in way worse share then they realize.

1. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for keeping their traditions over obedience to what God commanded- God’s commandments- that came with 9 other commandments that God also commanded written by the finger of God Exo 31:18 which there is no greater Authority and I am sad for you that you refuse to see this.
2. In keeping our traditions over obedience to God’s commandments- one worships in vain- compared to true worship Rev 14:12
3. Ones heart is far from Jesus because it show rebellion to God- He placed His law in our hearts and refusal to even try to keep make one an enmity against God Rom 8:7-8
4. Jesus goes on to say those who do and teach this is the spiritual blind and end up in a ditch

So no, Jesus did not give us His Lordship to the Pharisee over their traditions- the accused Jesus and the apostles of breaking the Sabbath, which Jesus flat our denied Mat 12:7 John 8:45-46 - Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath- does not say I am doing away with the Sabbath, that is a lot of adding to God’s pure Word- something we are told not to do Pro 30:5-6- Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. He is bringing us back to Creation when man was made on the 6th day before the Sabbath as man was made in the image of God to follow Him. God rested on the Sabbath day and commanded man to, so if anyone would know how the Sabbath was to be kept is Jesus as He is Lord of and the Creator of the Sabbath.

Paul has no authority to undermine God, which is why we was so clear on Col 2:16-17 and even when showing you the context that starts in Col 2:14- handwritten ordinances that were contrary and against. The weekly Sabbath started at Creation, when everything was God’s perfect plan, He blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy- that is not the definition of contrary or against. The Sabbath is a commandment of God finger written by God! Exo 31:18 There is more than one sabbath in the Bible and one that is an ordinance, handwritten by Moses, placed outside the ark as a witness against that had to do with food and drink offerings the context to this passage . Any one who really cares about truly following God’s pure Word, would not keep making this mistake.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Okay, EX31:14, "Observe the Sabbath... Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death."
EX 35:2b, "...Whover does any work on the Sabbath is to be put to death."

Do you have a verse where Jesus affirms this law?
BTW, Jesus also amends a few other laws in MT 5.

So helping people in need that Jesus did was secular work and because Jesus “broke” the law He deserved the death penalty from the Pharisees. Where is helping people in need secular work? Jesus said the Sabbath is a DELIGHT, by doing His ways- loving our neighbor by helping them out is not a sin, this is the mind of the Pharisees. You are basically crucifying Jesus all over again.

Like I said, you have no understanding of the Sabbath and sad, because God wants to bless Isa 56:1-6 and sanctify Eze 20:12 us because we cannot sanctify ourselves and not a good spot to be come Judgement day Isa 66:17

 

[GWH]

So helping people in need that Jesus did was secular work and because Jesus “broke” the law He deserved the death penalty from the Pharisees. Where is helping people in need secular work? Jesus said the Sabbath isa DELIGHT, by doing His ways- loving our neighbor by helping them out is not a sin. You are basically crucifying Jesus all over again.

Like I said, you have no understanding of the Sabbath and sad, because God wants to bless and sanctify us because we cannot sanctify ourselves and not a good spot to be come Judgement day Isa 66:17

I notice you provide no verse, and I suspect that you do not understand it is permissible to observe the Sabbath, but not salvific any more than doing good on any other day merits salvation.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I notice you provide no verse, and I suspect that you do not understand it is permissible to observe the Sabbath, but not salvific any more than doing good on any other day merits salvation.

Jesus said in His own Words He kept the commandments John 15:10 and did not sin

John 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

John 8: 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Sad you believe the Pharisees over Jesus.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Jesus said in His own Words He kept the commandments John 15:10 and did not sin

John 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

John 8: 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Sad you believe the Pharisees over Jesus.

My computer converts to a non-direct translation of the manuscripts and I thought I changed it when I pasted the verse but see it did not.

Better translation….

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Jesus kept all of the commandments including the Sabbath Luke 4:16

The doctrine Jesus broke the Sabbath and sinned is a doctrine of another spirit. It’s not one I am interested in trying to continue and reason with, so I will leave it as agree to disagree and all will get sorted out soon enough.

 

[GWH]

My computer converts to a non-direct translation of the manuscripts and I thought I changed it when I pasted the verse but see it did not.

Better translation….

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Jesus kept all of the commandments including the Sabbath Luke 4:16

The doctrine Jesus broke the Sabbath and sinned is a doctrine of another spirit. It’s not one I am interested in trying to continue and reason with, so I will leave it as agree to disagree and all will get sorted out soon enough.

I agree to disagree whether you cited a verse in which Jesus specifically reaffirmed the Sabbath, whereas I can provide verses in which he fulfilled the law, is Lord of the law, amended the law, and reaffirmed and amended the main moral commandments concerning murder, adultery, divorce, oaths, eye for eye, and even love your neighbor--and we are not even down to what he commanded through the apostle Paul, Peter and John without even coming close to commanding death for Sabbath breakers. So, no cigar!

 

[rrcn]

The occasion when Jesus and his disciples broke the Sabbath is in MT 12:1-12, but MT 15:1-14 teaches that Pharisaic people nullify Christ's Lordship because their tradition trumps learning GW, which is exactly Paul's concern in CL 2:16 with regard to Sabbath law, and that is what you do when you say the Lord of the Sabbath cannot amend it. Hopefully this improves our understanding.

Luke 4:16-19 records the very moment that Jesus fulfilled the OC including Sabbath law, and HB 7:18-10:1 explains that the Gospel supersedes the former Law with a better hope of perfection (7:18-19).

How do the following verses fit into your understanding?

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. . KJV — Isaiah 66:22-KJV — Isaiah 66:24

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. n. KJV — Revelation 21:1-KJV

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. KJV — Revelation 22:14-KJV

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.. KJV — Revelation 22:15

 

[GWH]

How do the following verses fit into your understanding?

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. . KJV — Isaiah 66:22-KJV — Isaiah 66:24

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. n. KJV — Revelation 21:1-KJV

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. KJV — Revelation 22:14-KJV

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.. KJV — Revelation 22:15

rrcn asked how a couple of Scriptures fit into my understanding:

Re IS 66:23, "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

I did not realize that Paul must have had this OT verse in mind when he wrote in CL 2:16, "Do not let anyone judge you... with regard to a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." Thanks! Two more dots connected. :^)

Re RV 21:14-15, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Perhaps John had in mind what Paul said in 1CR 6:9-10.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I agree to disagree whether you cited a verse in which Jesus specifically reaffirmed the Sabbath, whereas I can provide verses in which he fulfilled the law, is Lord of the law, amended the law, and reaffirmed and amended the main moral commandments concerning murder, adultery, divorce, oaths, eye for eye, and even love your neighbor--and we are not even down to what he commanded through the apostle Paul, Peter and John without even coming close to commanding death for Sabbath breakers. So, no cigar!

This is where knowing and understating the OT is needed because Jesus quoted from it and told us to live by it.

The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 and God added no more to them Deut 5:22 written personally by God Exo 31:18 placed inside the ark of the covenant that is in heaven Heb 9:4 Rev 11:19 all Ten Commandment- His version found in Exodus 20. God’s perfect law converting the soul, written by our perfect Savior and its under Christ’s mercy seat as it is what all man will be Judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15 Where mercy meets justice one day soon.

In scripture, there are two major sets of laws - the Ten Commandments placed inside the ark Exo 40:20 written by the finger of God and the law of Moses handwritten by Moses in a book placed outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-26 for breaking what was inside God’s eternal moral law. The law that is perfect never becomes the law that is contrary and against.

Unless you have a good understanding of these two laws, one will never understand NT scripture. Especially Paul because he often just uses law and without a foundation of understanding or allowing the context to explain itself its why his writings come with a very stern warning that people twist as they do other scripture to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:16

In scripture they don’t list out every commandment to know which law they are referring to. For example Paul quoted from the Ten Commandments for the law that defines sin when breaking Rom 7:7 which means them all. Jesus very clearly stated not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one will be least in heaven Mat 5:19 and least in heaven i.e. is not there v20. He then goes on to say the commandments He is referring to quoting directly from the Ten Commandments which the Sabbath is one of this unit thus saith the Lord Exo 20:6 Exodus 20 breaking one of these we break them all James 2:10-12. So this stern warning includes the Sabbath or any of God’s Ten Commandments. Jesus doesn’t even want us having the thoughts that lead to breaking the commandments, thats how much we should not break them, and in doing so, breaking the least of these commandments one would be in fear of sin and Judgement which we also see in James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15

He then goes on to say in addition to not breaking any of the Ten Commandments He shows how far of a reach they are by relating divorce to the commandment of adultery. There is not one law that does not have an umbrella under the Ten Commandments, they way Jesus explains in this passage. They are God’s Perfect Standard of Righteousness Psa 119:172 and His righteousness is everlasting Psa 119:142 His Truth Psa 119:151 and perfect converting the soul Psa 19:7. We cannot be converted in Christ by being in rebellion to His law Rom 8:7-8

Your argument is really with a much Greater Authority than I, I am only trying to help, but I don’t think any scripture, even what Jesus in His own Words tells us to live by- will make a difference so I will leave it as I wish you well and hope one day you consider, because when Jesus comes all decisions we make are final and it will be too late Rev 22:11

 

[rrcn]

rrcn asked how a couple of Scriptures fit into my understanding:
Re RV 21:14-15, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Perhaps John had in mind what Paul said in 1CR 6:9-10.

Unfortunately in struggling with my tablet I wrote Rev 21 when it was actually Rev. 22: 14-15

[Rev 22:14-15 KJV] 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The context was a conversation between one of the seven the angel and John.

[Rev 21:9 KJV] 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

[Rev 22:6 KJV] 6 And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

John is relaying a message sent from the throne of God, there was no reference to the writings of Paul.

There is only one interpretation available here:

[Rev 22:13-14, 16 KJV] 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. ... 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.