Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

[SabbathBlessing]

To obey all of the Ten Commandments, you will have to sacrifice. There is a cost to following Jesus.

Jesus made the Sacrifice, and He obeyed all of the commandments, because man failed. If we have a right relationship with Him., He will impute His righteousness to us, but it means we too have to sacrifice ourselves to Christ Romans 12:1-2 and die of self. If we have a right relationship with Christ we would not be rebelling against His law Rom 8:7-8 we would keep it through love and faith. If we stumble and fall, we can go to Jesus when we repent and turn from sin- but someone in Christ should be a follower of Christ and abide in Him which means to follow His example 1 John 2:5-6

 

[GWH]

Jesus is better than Moses. Moses said what God commanded Him to say. Moses was merely a vessel used by God and Jesus, who is God, surpasses Him in authority.

Amen!

 

[rrcn]

Actually there is a subtle reference to Paul when John mentions the "churches", because it was Paul who probably was instrumental in the founding of those churches with his preaching and writing per ACTS 19:1-10.

Look higher brother.
The seven churches are symbolic of all the Christian churches until the end of time, they are the target of the message of Revelation. John is reporting the message straight from the mouth of Jesus, the first chapter of Revelation explains that. Paul was a fellow worker with John but someone greater than Paul was sending this prophecy.

[Rev 1:10-18 KJV] 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[GWH]

Look higher brother.
The seven churches are symbolic of all the Christian churches until the end of time, they are the target of the message of Revelation. John is reporting the message straight from the mouth of Jesus, the first chapter of Revelation explains that. Paul was a fellow worker with John but someone greater than Paul was sending this prophecy.

[Rev 1:10-18 KJV] 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Well, my NIV has a map with the actual historical cities located on it accompanied by footnotes giving information about each one, although I think only Ephesus is named in the Acts account of Paul's journeys. One of the notes says that most folks interpret the churches as you stated. (Reading RV makes my eyes glaze over! :^) How did we get on this topic anyway?

Oh yeah, I had said "The occasion when Jesus and his disciples broke the Sabbath is in MT 12:1-12, but MT 15:1-14 teaches that Pharisaic people nullify Christ's Lordship because their tradition trumps learning GW, which is exactly Paul's concern in CL 2:16 with regard to Sabbath law, and that is what you do when you say the Lord of the Sabbath cannot amend it. Hopefully this improves our understanding. Luke 4:16-19 records the very moment that Jesus fulfilled the OC including Sabbath law, and HB 7:18-10:1 explains that the Gospel supersedes the former Law with a better hope of perfection (7:18-19)." And then you asked about my understanding of RV 22.

I had been sharing a way to witness to atheists by beginning philosophically with unavoidable beliefs, then citing opposite opinions about the meaning of life, positing that sane or non-nihilistic people choose to believe that life has meaning or a moral dimension, and ending that train of logic by analyzing five major belief systems: humanism, karmaism, naturalism, atheism and NT theism, with the last being the best IMO. Then I shared an insight that I call the Propensity Principle (PP): It is wise to hope the God who provides the DOD exists until the NT is disproved.
.
I had begun describing the NT God by explaining seven words used to state His attributes: omnipotence, omniscience, omnitemporality, omnipresence, love, truth and justness. I will continue soon.

 

[vassal]

Look higher brother.
The seven churches are symbolic of all the Christian churches until the end of time, they are the target of the message of Revelation. John is reporting the message straight from the mouth of Jesus, the first chapter of Revelation explains that. Paul was a fellow worker with John but someone greater than Paul was sending this prophecy.

[Rev 1:10-18 KJV] 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

just to mention that Paul has NOTHING to do with the first chapter. This is your own or your church's interpretation.

 

[rrcn]

Well, my NIV has a map with the actual historical cities located on it accompanied by footnotes giving information about each one, although I think only Ephesus is named in the Acts account of Paul's journeys. One of the notes says that most folks interpret the churches as you stated. (Reading RV makes my eyes glaze over! :^) How did we get on this topic anyway?

Oh yeah, I had said "The occasion when Jesus and his disciples broke the Sabbath is in MT 12:1-12, but MT 15:1-14 teaches that Pharisaic people nullify Christ's Lordship because their tradition trumps learning GW, which is exactly Paul's concern in CL 2:16 with regard to Sabbath law, and that is what you do when you say the Lord of the Sabbath cannot amend it. Hopefully this improves our understanding. Luke 4:16-19 records the very moment that Jesus fulfilled the OC including Sabbath law, and HB 7:18-10:1 explains that the Gospel supersedes the former Law with a better hope of perfection (7:18-19)." And then you asked about my understanding of RV 22.

I had been sharing a way to witness to atheists by beginning philosophically with unavoidable beliefs, then citing opposite opinions about the meaning of life, positing that sane or non-nihilistic people choose to believe that life has meaning or a moral dimension, and ending that train of logic by analyzing five major belief systems: humanism, karmaism, naturalism, atheism and NT theism, with the last being the best IMO. Then I shared an insight that I call the Propensity Principle (PP): It is wise to hope the God who provides the DOD exists until the NT is disproved.
.
I had begun describing the NT God by explaining seven words used to state His attributes: omnipotence, omniscience, omnitemporality, omnipresence, love, truth and justness. I will continue soon.

Things in chat groups can change quickly, by their nature they are rather fluid.

 

[rrcn]

just to mention that Paul has NOTHING to do with the first chapter. This is your own or your church's interpretation.

Could you elaborate?

 

[GWH]

Could you elaborate?

I sort of wanted to elaborate by saying that Jesus spoke through Paul, who according to the Acts account travelled from Ephesus to preach in the province of Asia where those other six churches were located, so he likely founded them and the symbolism in RV should not detract from that effort.

 

[GWH]

Okay, after chasing some rabbits I will now continue my logical train of thought for atheists with further explanation of the NT God beginning with the "omni attributes".

1. God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2TM 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per HB 9:27)–called His permissive will.

2. God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (JR 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., ACTS 6:3, 1CR 1:25, CL 2:2-3, JM 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Romans 11:33-34 (echoing IS 40:13-14) and Daniel 2:20-23.

Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (PS 94:11, MT 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (ACTS 2:23, RM 8:29, 11:2, 1PT 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (JR 1:5). If this view is correct (which I find incomprehensible), it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. God allows eddies in the river of salvation.

3. Omnipotence is connected with omnitemporality (in RV 1:18): “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Romans 1:20 refers to God’s “eternal power”, and Jeremiah 10:10&16 names God “the Lord Almighty”, who is true, living and eternal.

4. God’s infinite power implies omnipresence (per PS 139:7-8). God transcends spatial existence while being immanent in all points of space. (Other scriptural support for this view includes 1KG 8:27, IS 66:1, JR 23:33, ACTS 17:27-28 and EPH 4:6.)

God’s superiority over His creation must be viewed as a matter of degree or quantitatively in order to preserve the continuity between God and humanity that would be requisite for communication (like the need for a common language and culture cited previously). However, the Bible teaches that God also differs from creatures in kind or qualitatively, so that attaining equality with Deity is impossible (IS 55:9, EPH 3:19). We can be like God (GN 3:3), and we can become one with the Son of God (JN 17:21-23), but we cannot become God (cf. Humanism).

 

[Needevidence]

I sort of wanted to elaborate by saying that Jesus spoke through Paul, who according to the Acts account travelled from Ephesus to preach in the province of Asia where those other six churches were located, so he likely founded them and the symbolism in RV should not detract from that effort.

Interesting idea not sure it would be persuasive enough –

As to Paul founded the churches in Asia, any evidence, noting the below!

Acts 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, arguing and pleading about the kingdom of God;

Acts 21:28 28 crying out, Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching men everywhere against the people and the law and this place; moreover he also brought Greeks into the temple, and he has defiled this holy place.”

2 Timothy 1:15 - 15You know that everyone in the Province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

 

[rrcn]

I sort of wanted to elaborate by saying that Jesus spoke through Paul, who according to the Acts account travelled from Ephesus to preach in the province of Asia where those other six churches were located, so he likely founded them and the symbolism in RV should not detract from that effort.

You and I both owe a tremendous debt to Jesus for calling Paul to the ministry. The same applies to John and all of the other prophets, however Jesus is the star of Revelation as well as every other book of the Bible.

[Rev 19:10 KJV] 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

[GWH]

Interesting idea not sure it would be persuasive enough –

As to Paul founded the churches in Asia, any evidence, noting the below!

Acts 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, arguing and pleading about the kingdom of God;

Acts 21:28 28 crying out, Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching men everywhere against the people and the law and this place; moreover he also brought Greeks into the temple, and he has defiled this holy place.”

2 Timothy 1:15 - 15You know that everyone in the Province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

Paul's preaching in Asia is mentioned in Acts 19:1,10&26.

 

[GWH]

You and I both owe a tremendous debt to Jesus for calling Paul to the ministry. The same applies to John and all of the other prophets, however Jesus is the star of Revelation as well as every other book of the Bible.

[Rev 19:10 KJV] 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Recognizing that "Jesus is the star of Revelation as well as every other book of the Bible", you should be able to answer my current/last question on the Random Questions thread. :^)

 

[rrcn]

Recognizing that "Jesus is the star of Revelation as well as every other book of the Bible", you should be able to answer my current/last question on the Random Questions thread. :^)

Nah, I don’t do polls.

 

[Needevidence]

Paul's preaching in Asia is mentioned in Acts 19:1,10&26.

Yes - that’s not what i said - you stated Paul 'likely founded' the churches in Asia - any evidence?

From what i quoted he went there and peached in the temple / synagogue and he confirms himself that he was rejected by Asia & they were writing to the apostles complaining about Pauls teachings

 

[GWH]

Nah, I don’t do polls.

It is not a poll but rather an attempt to provide a frame as a pneumonic device for memorizing the most significant events in the history of the world, just as it is a common method to work a jigsaw puzzle by first putting the border pieces together as the frame.

 

[GWH]

Yes - that’s not what i said - you stated Paul 'likely founded' the churches in Asia - any evidence?

From what i quoted he went there and peached in the temple / synagogue and he confirms himself that he was rejected by Asia & they were writing to the apostles complaining about Pauls teachings

It would be helpful if you would read the Scripture I cite so that I don't have to type it out for you, but here it is:

Acts 19:1 - ...Paul [who was in Phrygia in Asia Minor per Acts 18:23] took the road through the interior [of Lydia in Asia Minor] and arrived at Ephesus.

Acts 19:10 - [When people in the synagogue became obstinate per v. 8-9, Paul left them, taking the disciples [converts?] with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.] This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks [Gentiles] who lived in the province of Asia [where the churches in RV were located] heard the word of the Lord [Jesus].

Acts 19:26 - [A silversmith addressing his fellow artisans said] "You see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia..."

Can you not agree that this strongly suggests Paul founded Christian churches (probably ekklesias in homes) in Asia?!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Paul appears to have been involved with the church in Laodicea

And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea. Colossians 4:16​

 

[GWH]

Paul appears to have been involved with the church in Laodicea

And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea. Colossians 4:16​

2 down; 5 to go. :^)

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

2 down; 5 to go. :^)

It's not mentioned in Revelation, but Hieropolis was just across the valley from Laodicea (within eyesight), which Paul also mentions in Colossians