Apocrypha

FranC · Feb 20, 2017

I have read them all. It was a requirement the first week of New Testament survey in Seminary. It is very relevant material as far as being written during intertestamental times. (Between the New and Old Testament)

But there are many things that are obviously fiction. 2 Maccabees is not historically accurate. And certainly not valuable for doctrine! Other stories are complete works of fiction.

Also remember, Esther and Daniel have quite a bit extra which are part of the Apocrypha. So don't miss those.

It is always good to examine literature which was written in Palestine, during the occupations of various countries. It gives us insight into the conditions which developed and were occurring during New Testament times.

Just not for doctrine!

Here is a brief link as to why the Apocrypha is not considered to be canon.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language (the Old Testament was written in Hebrew). All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking about the Catholic religion. The Roman Catholic "Church" is not Christian).
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:

Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

Magic:

Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):

Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.

https://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

Hi Angela,

I agree with all of the above.

I really, though, don't understand how anyone can say that the RCC is not Christian.

What do you believe constitutes a Christian Church? Is it not the belief that Jesus is our Lord and Savior?

The RCC does teach that Jesus is the Savior.

I also do not agree with many of their doctrine -- that, however, does not have a bearing on their Christianity.

Fran

jaybird88 · Feb 20, 2017

mailmandan said:

Ezekiel 18 19-20
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

MT 19 14
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

yet Jesus and the 12 use teachings that can be found no where else but in these books. why would they do that?

mailmandan · Feb 21, 2017

jaybird88 said:

The prophet Ezekiel is discussing the principle of personal accountability and is not teaching justification by works of the law. Are you using this text to teach justification by works of the law/salvation by works?

Ezekiel 18:18 - But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people. 19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

In 1 John 3:7-10, we read - 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of Godappeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Children serve as a metaphor of the humility necessary for entrance into the kingdom of God, as we see in Matthew 18:3, yet this does not negate Romans 3:10; 5:18,19.

What teachings are you talking about? Did you read posts #3 and #4? Are you defending false doctrine found in the Apocrypha? Do you believe the Apocrypha is inspired?

tanakh · Feb 21, 2017

jaybird88 said:

Jesus and the twelve were not like Modern Evangelicals and the Holy Spirit isn't either. If something in a book happens to be true God will use it regardless as to whether the rest of that book is true or not.

FranC · Feb 21, 2017

jaybird88 said:

Could you please list some teachings Jesus used from the Apocropha?

I don't recall Him quoting anything from these books.

Fran

jaybird88 · Feb 21, 2017

one point i forgot to mention,

it does not, it contradicts man made doctrine.

mailmandan said:

the passage says when one has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. what do you think it means when it says he "shall live". would it be more correct to translate it as he shall live but not really because mankind says thats works?

the wisdom passage according to you was teaching against the doctrine of original sin, a doctrine that didnt exist until almost 400 years after Jesus when Augustine brought it in, and it was rejected and fought for a while but eventually people were forced to accept or pay the price. if doctrines can only be spread by fear of punishment maybe we should re think the idea.
Jesus and the children, if those children were full of sin how are they going to get into heaven like Jesus said they were? and where is this judgment in scripture? it is supposed to be a result of the disibodience of adam and eve yet Gen tells us their judgment, sins being passed down are not mentioned.

i defend peoples right to have faith in the spirit, think for themselves, and read the books they think can help them grow and learn. i am against councils doing all the thinking for us. the pharisees stole the keys to the kingdom, some things never change.

samuel23 · Feb 21, 2017

Thanks Ahwa: It looks very close to what is in Jude.

mailmandan · Feb 22, 2017

jaybird88 said:

Nonsense. You sound like a Roman Catholic defending the Apocrypha, yet you deny the Trinity. Very strange. I already showed you that the Apocrypha contradicts Scripture in post #40 and so did Angela53510 in post #3 and Magenta did a great job of explaining why the Apocrypha is not inspired in this thread (posts #3 and #4) - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/144464-when-holy-bible-first-assembled-382-d-inspiration-god.html

I already explained to you that the prophet Ezekiel is discussing the principle of personal accountability and is not teaching justification by works of the law. Are you using this text to teach justification by works of the law/salvation by works? *in contradiction to Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16.

Roman Catholics believe the Apocrypha is inspired and in 1546 declared an anathema on anyone who believes otherwise, yet Roman Catholics teach the doctrine of original sin. hmm... Are you saying that Roman Catholics cannot have it both ways?

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Psalm 51:5 says - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. I don't believe this means that infants or young children who die will automatically end up being doomed to hell because they inherited a sinful nature from Adam. They are not mature enough to make a decision for Christ so how could they be held accountable for anything? In 2 Samuel 12 we read about David’s affair with Bathsheba. David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child produced by them would die. David then began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment. When the child died, David got up from praying and fasting and ate something. When asked about his behavior, David said these words recorded in 2 Samuel 12:23, “Now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child would not come back to him, but David would be with his child one day in heaven. From this, we can conclude that infants or even young children are not automatically doomed to hell.

Yet your theology is all over the place.

You never did answer my question. What teachings are you talking about?

Dude653 · Feb 22, 2017

I never finished reading it. It's so poorly written it's almost unreadable.

jaybird88 · Feb 22, 2017

mailmandan said:

you, angela, and magenta, so its a numbers game, the more people agree make it true? im pretty sure i lie is still a lie no matter how many agree.

i agree the text is teaching we are responsible for our own sins, not that of are fathers 9(we will be coming back to this point) the text also teaches a man shall live when he walks in the ways of the Father.

i believe its inspired:
2 Tim 3:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP]All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [SUP]17 [/SUP]that the man of God[SUP][a][/SUP] may be complete, equipped for every good work.
at the very moment this statement was made the LXX was the common bible used, the books in question were part of that collection.

so Davids child did not inherent his fathers sins? changing your mind now

the ones in reply to angies post

Jesus and the 12 didnt have a problem with these books. they use teachings that can be found nowhere else but in these books. that in itself would inspire people to read them. Jesus and the 12 would not have done this had the not wanted others to read them. but many will not because so many teach against it. Jesus taught to put your faith in the spirit, man teaches put your faith in man.

mailmandan · Feb 23, 2017

jaybird88 said:

What we explained to you is not a lie. *Once again, I already showed you that the Apocrypha contradicts Scripture in post #40 and so did Angela53510 in post #3 and Magenta did a great job of explaining why the Apocrypha is not inspired in this thread (posts #3 and #4) - http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-first-assembled-382-d-inspiration-god.html

What kind of man is this descriptive of? Why does such a man walk in the way of the Father? What is the heart of the issue? Also, why did you dodge my question? - *Are you using this text to teach justification by works of the law/salvation by works? *in contradiction to Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16.

You and Roman Catholics can erroneously believe that all you want, but the Apocrypha is not inspired, as was already explained why in post #3 and post #40 and also in (posts #3 and #4) in this thread - http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-first-assembled-382-d-inspiration-god.html

That is a straw man argument. I never said that David inherited his fathers sins. Inheriting a sinful nature at birth does not mean that you inherited your father's sins and you are responsible for them. You seem to enjoy stirring up arguments and keeping them going.

I saw no valid response to Angie's post. Contrary to your claim, see:

https://carm.org/reasons-why-apocrypha-does-not-belong-bible

Are the Apocrypha Quoted in the New Testament?

Your biased opinions about the Apocrypha are nonsense.

PennEd · Feb 23, 2017

Neither Jesus, nor any of the writers of the New Testament reference, or quote from the apocrypha. it is true that here are several other O.T. books that ARE inspired that aren't referenced either, BUT ALL of them are accepted Jewish canon. This is what Paul say about the O.T. Scriptures concerning the Jews:

"Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God," (Rom. 3:1-2).

These 2 factors, along with already noted contradictions, are more than enough to reject the apocrypha as inspired.

FranC · Feb 23, 2017

FranC said:

Hey Jaybird

How about an answer?

You only speak to friends??

FranC · Feb 23, 2017

FranC said:

Angela,

How about a reply?

WHAT constitutes a christian church in your opinion since you say the catholic church is Not christian?

Thanks for the courtesy.

mailmandan · Feb 23, 2017

FranC said:

Just for Catholics ANSWERS | HOME

The Difference Between Catholicism and Christianity

Question: What is the difference between Catholicism and Biblical Christianity?

Answer: Catholicism and Biblical Christianity are divergent religions. They are built on different foundations, and they propose different ways of salvation.

In principle, Christianity is built solely on the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. The Bible is our only infallible rule of faith, being sufficient to give us the sure knowledge of the Gospel for our salvation and holiness.

Roman Catholicism demands submission of the intellect and will to the doctrines taught by the Roman magisterium (the Pope and bishops). It is claimed that the Catholic Church derives its doctrines from the "sacred deposit" found in Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. However the faithful cannot verify these doctrines by referring to the original sources. The Scriptures are inaccessible because only the magisterium is able to establish the authentic meaning. Similarly the contents of Sacred Tradition can only be known through the magisterium. Roman Catholicism is mental and spiritual slavery to the Vatican.

As expected, since the foundations are different, so also are the edifices built upon them. Christianity stands on the Gospel of God's sovereign grace. In love, God predestines His chosen ones to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, their sole mediator. The Son became man and gave His life as a ransom to secure their freedom from sin. Being dead in sin, they are completely unable to convert ourselves or merit God's favour. Therefore God graciously grants His people repentance and faith to turn to Him and trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. Believers are accepted in Christ, solely on the merit of His righteousness and blood, and not because of any goodness or human merit. God also resides in His people by the Holy Spirit, enabling them to obey and glorify the Father, and to guarantee their inheritance in heaven forever.

Rome's "gospel" is not good news at all. The Roman institution, calling itself "The Church", usurps Christ's mediatorial office, proclaiming herself as the "sacrament of salvation." The "Church" dispenses salvation to her faithful in small portions, starting at baptism and continuing throughout life. Forgiveness can only be obtained through the sacrament of penance. The benefits of Christ's sacrifice are accessible through the sacrifice of the Mass. Instead of teaching the faithful to rest in Christ by faith, Catholics are taught to perform religious works to "merit grace" and to do penance to make satisfaction. Even after death, Catholics remains dependent on the "Church" to relieve their suffering in Purgatory by masses and indulgences.

The Roman Catholic Church is a mighty obstacle to anyone seeking salvation, enslaving millions of people to a religious system and preventing them from coming directly to Christ.

The choice is between the Bible and the Roman magisterium; the choice is between salvation by grace through faith in Christ, or through human merit and effort in the Roman religion.

jaybird88 · Feb 23, 2017

FranC said:

sorry Fran i didnt mean to ignore you.

Matthew 7:16-20
[SUP]16 [/SUP]By their fruit you will recognize them.[SUP](A)[/SUP] Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?[SUP](B)[/SUP] [SUP]17 [/SUP]Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.[SUP](C)[/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.[SUP](D)[/SUP] [SUP]20 [/SUP]Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Sirach 27:6-7 (Apocrypha)
[SUP]6 [/SUP][SUP](A)[/SUP]You can tell how well a tree has been cared for by the fruit it bears, and you can tell a person's feelings by the way he expresses himself. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Never praise anyone before you hear him talk; that is the real test.

Matt.. 7:12 - golden rule
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Tobit 4:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]See thou never do to another what thou wouldst hate to have done to thee by another.

theres a few, thought i had a list of them on this thread already.

jaybird88 · Feb 23, 2017

mailmandan said:

you say it contradicts scripture then you start listing doctrines, your confusing laws of man with laws of the Most High. i am listing scriptures from official canon that support the Apocrypha scriptures you list.
the fact that 3 of you said the same thing makes little difference, i dont buy into the majority rule philosophy. like i said before, i lie is a lie no matter how many are claiming its not.
that same council commanded holy scripture burned, scripture that contained the name of the Most High, unthinkable before that. can you give an example in the bible of the Most High commanding for scriptures to be burned?
one of the very reason we are given the spirit is so we do not have to depend on councils to make these decisions for us.

walk in the ways of the Lord and you shall live, thats what it teaches.

2 Tim 3:16-17 disagrees with that opinion

the wisdom passage agrees with Ezekiel and what Jesus taught on the children

one being lead by the spirit rather than being lead by a council is nonsense?

Hizikyah · Feb 23, 2017

jaybird88 said:

Pope Innocent III stated in 1199: "... to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted..."

COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.:

Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed.

Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.

Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

THE COUNCIL OF TARRAGONA - 1234 A.D.:

"No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned lest, be he a cleric or a layman, he be suspected until he is cleared of all suspicion."

Revelation 13:3-4, “…and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”

FranC · Feb 23, 2017

mailmandan said:

Just for Catholics ANSWERS | HOME

The Difference Between Catholicism and Christianity

Question: What is the difference between Catholicism and Biblical Christianity?

Answer: Catholicism and Biblical Christianity are divergent religions. They are built on different foundations, and they propose different ways of salvation.

In principle, Christianity is built solely on the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. The Bible is our only infallible rule of faith, being sufficient to give us the sure knowledge of the Gospel for our salvation and holiness.

Roman Catholicism demands submission of the intellect and will to the doctrines taught by the Roman magisterium (the Pope and bishops). It is claimed that the Catholic Church derives its doctrines from the "sacred deposit" found in Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. However the faithful cannot verify these doctrines by referring to the original sources. The Scriptures are inaccessible because only the magisterium is able to establish the authentic meaning. Similarly the contents of Sacred Tradition can only be known through the magisterium. Roman Catholicism is mental and spiritual slavery to the Vatican.

As expected, since the foundations are different, so also are the edifices built upon them. Christianity stands on the Gospel of God's sovereign grace. In love, God predestines His chosen ones to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, their sole mediator. The Son became man and gave His life as a ransom to secure their freedom from sin. Being dead in sin, they are completely unable to convert ourselves or merit God's favour. Therefore God graciously grants His people repentance and faith to turn to Him and trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. Believers are accepted in Christ, solely on the merit of His righteousness and blood, and not because of any goodness or human merit. God also resides in His people by the Holy Spirit, enabling them to obey and glorify the Father, and to guarantee their inheritance in heaven forever.

Rome's "gospel" is not good news at all. The Roman institution, calling itself "The Church", usurps Christ's mediatorial office, proclaiming herself as the "sacrament of salvation." The "Church" dispenses salvation to her faithful in small portions, starting at baptism and continuing throughout life. Forgiveness can only be obtained through the sacrament of penance. The benefits of Christ's sacrifice are accessible through the sacrifice of the Mass. Instead of teaching the faithful to rest in Christ by faith, Catholics are taught to perform religious works to "merit grace" and to do penance to make satisfaction. Even after death, Catholics remains dependent on the "Church" to relieve their suffering in Purgatory by masses and indulgences.

The Roman Catholic Church is a mighty obstacle to anyone seeking salvation, enslaving millions of people to a religious system and preventing them from coming directly to Christ.

The choice is between the Bible and the Roman magisterium; the choice is between salvation by grace through faith in Christ, or through human merit and effort in the Roman religion.

I find that many here paste and copy. Someone must have a Whole file because all he does is paste and copy.

I'm asking Angela why she thinks CAtholics are not Christians.
I'm interested in what she thinks, not Catholic Answers.

I'm also interested in what YOU think, MMD, but not Catholic Answers, or whatever it's called.

I could read Google myself without coming here.

How about we use our own words in speaking about God and the bible?

Catholics might have doctrine that we don't agree with,
This does NOT make them unchristian.

They teach Christ and they teach salvation through Christ, just like we do.
Do not all churches have doctrine we may not agree with?
Don't we all like some preacher over another?

I believe it's very unfair to call our Catholic brothers in Christ unchristian.

FranC · Feb 23, 2017

jaybird88 said:

No problem.
I'm really interested, that's why I asked again.

I checked and find that Prophets as spoken of by Jesus is also found in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea...

I don't see the "Golden rule" in Sirach.

And I cannot find any other reference in the O.T. as regards branches and fruit, etc. which would indicate that the quote would be from Sirach.

If anyone knows where in the O.T. there is reference to branches being cut off, and not bearing fruit, would they please post it?

Thanks Jaybird.

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