Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

[pottersclay]

Good questions, and scripture answers that.

I imagine in the book of Daniel, the sight of an overheated furnace would be a terrifying sight and yet when the three men were thrown into the furnace they were protected by God. When Daniel was thrown in with the lions it would have been a terrifying sight and yet God protected Daniel.

When we consider that Revelation and the book of Daniel have many overlapping themes and imagery, we see that it would be perfectly fitting to "walk through the valley of the shadow of death" and have no fear rather than to be pulled up into the sky before having to make that walk. We didn't see the three men raptured before the furnace, we didn't see Daniel raptured before the lions den. That didn't mean they were unprotected.

And more than that, even with the two witnesses, they were killed first and then raptured. Mortal death in some cases is just a step along the way. And based on Rev 21:4, there will be traumatic experiences but God wipes away the tears.

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." - Psalms 23:4 KJV

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." - Acts 16:31 KJV

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." - Rev 21:4 KJV



It isn't your strength that gets you through, it is God's strength in you.

I totally agree with you saint and yes God does protect his saints. Now can you show me where this is in revelation.?
None of the scriptue after the 4th chapter talks about the church untill far later.
People trying to hide and flee to the mountains hide in the rocks. The slaughter of thousands. Where does is say but the faithful were protected by the Lord. Some what like the hebrews in egypt were passed over.

 

[pottersclay]

He has been watching this go on for thousands of years now.

His promise to us is to be saved from God's wrath.
The wrath of man and the wrath of satan is painful but temporary, whereas God's wrath is eternal and forever.

Right now, somewhere on this earth, there are our Brothers and Sisters suffering, persecuted, hungry, in prison and losing their life for their love of Christ.

Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Revelation 2:10

I dont know about you friend but Jesus took the wrath of God for me upon calvary praise his Holy name.
Therfore i am not appointed to the wrath which is to come.
Shall the Christ be crucified again? God forbid.

 

[pottersclay]

Is this a rhetorical question? "But he cannot be revealed untill" The angel removes the "What is removed" seal to the bottomless. bit

Is that what restrains. What surpresses evil?

 

[RichMan]

I dont know about you friend but Jesus took the wrath of God for me upon calvary praise his Holy name.
Therfore i am not appointed to the wrath which is to come.
Shall the Christ be crucified again? God forbid.

We are not appointed to wrath but we will endure great tribulation.
God's wrath does not come until after the seventh trump gathering of the saints and then the seven bowels of His wrath is poured out.

 

[Lori]

Lori - i am not sure what you are refering to? Please read below, as i see no 'harpazo' and absolutely no reference to removal from the earth or any type of 'snatching away here.

"he is taken out of the way" = 2 Thess 2:7

he is taken
γένηται (genētai)
Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1096: A prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be, i.e. to become, used with great latitude.

out of
ἐκ (ek)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.

[the] way.
μέσου (mesou)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 3319: Middle, in the middle, between, in the midst of. From meta; middle (neuter) noun).


The LORD and the Apostles Paul and John are 3 Witnesses who have never spoken or penned a single pre-trib rapture verse.

Can you direct us to one?

I apologize, I’m no student of Greek or the original text… all I have is Google.

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G726/harpazo.htm

http://web.oru.edu/current_students...MA(Th) Thesis.CH-2f Harpazo in NTPassages.pdf

Hope this helps.

 

[DavidTree]

I dont know about you friend but Jesus took the wrath of God for me upon calvary praise his Holy name.
Therfore i am not appointed to the wrath which is to come.
Shall the Christ be crucified again? God forbid.

Is this statement by the LORD directed at people under God's wrath?

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

 

[pottersclay]

That's correct. And let's not forget the Rapture of the two witnesses or two prophets after their resurrection. However, we need to take the doctrIne of the Rapture line by line:

Seventeen Truths about the Rapture

1. NO IGNORANCE, NO DESPAIRING SORROW FOR THE SAINTS
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

2. IT IS GOD THROUGH CHRIST WHO BRINGS SOULS AND SPIRITS FROM HEAVEN
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

3. CHRIST HIMSELF ASSURES OUR RESURRECTION AND TRANSFORMATION
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [dead].

4. THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FOR THE RESURRECTED SAINTS
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

5. THE LORD HIMSELF WILL TRANSFORM THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

6. WE ARE TO TAKE COMFORT IN THE RAPTURE SINCE IT IS THE BLESSED HOPE
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

7. THERE MUST BE NO DATE SETTING FOR THE RAPTURE
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

8. THE RAPTURE WILL BE SUDDEN, UNEXPECTED, AND UNDISCLOSED TO THE WORLD
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

9. FOR THE WORLD: A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY THE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

10. THE SAINTS SHOULD NOT BE SURPRISED AT THE RAPTURE
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

11. THE SAINTS ARE CHILDREN OF LIGHT, NOT CHILDREN OF DARKNESS
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

12. THE SAINTS ARE TO BE WATCHFUL -- THE RAPTURE CAN OCCUR AT ANY MOMENT
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

13. THE UNSAVED WILL SLEEP AND BE DRUNK WHEN THE RAPTURE OCCURS
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

14. FAITH, LOVE, HOPE, SALVATION: THE KEY INGREDIENTS
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. [Note: the Resurrection/Rapture is the culmination of salvation, which is the perfection and glorification of the saints]

15. GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH: WHY THE SAINTS DO NOT GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

16. CHRISTIANS LIVE WITH CHRIST ETERNALLY AND ARE NOT SUBJECT TO DAMNATION
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

17. COMFORT FOR OURSELVES, EDIFICATION FOR OTHERS BECAUSE OF THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Thank you saint....😉😉😉😉

 

[presidente]

I do a lot of pondering about end times and what it’ll look like for the believer. No one in my church wants to talk about it, so I thought I’d bring it here.

I have heard a few theologians proclaim that a pre-trib rapture is false doctrine, and a “lie from the pit of hell”.

I’m a pre-tribber married to a post tribber, and frankly, his arguments for a post tribulational rapture don’t hold water as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps a post-tribber from this forum can make me understand.

I have an open mind. Mostly because I fully expected the rapture to happen last year. The numbers just made sense. 2021 was 73 years since Israel became a nation, leaving 7 years for the tribulation culminating in the 80-year-old-generation mentioned in Psalms.

If that's the main reason you are pre-trib and you are still on the earth now, then how many more years can you stick to your eschatology, should Jesus tarry? If Jesus was born in 4 BC, then there isn' t much wiggle room.

Regardless, God is angry, and He’s about to punish the entire planet, and I’m persuaded that ours is the generation that will see these things come to pass. With a possible (probable?) WWIII scenario, and end time prophecies jumping off the pages of the Bible, I am fascinated, excited, and a little nervous. I would love to read the thoughts of any post-tribbers on what you think it will look like for believers to go through the tribulation (specifically, the 7 trumpets, seals and bowls of The Revelation.)

Paul wrote to the Thessalonian believers that they were not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Pretribbers latch on 'wrath' and point out the word is used in Revelation.

Wrath has to do with anger. 'Wrath' is not a time period. The question I ask pre-tribbers is whether they think the saints mentioned in the book of Revelation are 'appointed unto wrath' instead of being appointing to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. These saints are presented in a positive light. Revelation does not take a dig on them for not being ready for a pre-trib rapture. They overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.

Why would someone think these saints are appointed unto wrath? Also, notice in the Old Testament a similar situation to what we see in the book of Revelation. God poured out plagues in Egypt. But did He rapture out the Israelites for a while to keep them from getting judgment poured on them? No. He knew how to aim.

Many pre-tribbers make much out of 'church' not being mentioned after the first few chapters of Revelation, claiming the church has been raptured in the later chapters. But if we look at I Thessalonians 1, the 'church' is here when Jesus comes back executing vengence on them that know not God who do not obey the Gospel. Pre-trib has Jesus rapture the church while the world experiences peace under the beast for a while.

It may be that John uses ekklesia for local congregations that actually gather and 'saints' for Christians throughout the world.

 

[DavidTree]

I apologize, I’m no student of Greek or the original text… all I have is Google.

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G726/harpazo.htm

http://web.oru.edu/current_students/class_pages/grtheo/mmankins/DrHebert/M.A. Thesis/MA(Th) Thesis.CH-2f Harpazo in NTPassages.pdf

Hope this helps.

Yes, helpful - thank you.

Here is a direct quote from your link given - "harpazo is explicitly used as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17"

Do you believe the rapture is this? = 1 Thess 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Mem]

Scripture says that, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, the corruptible must put on incorruptible. There seems to be a prevailing mindset this is merely the body dying which then leaves only the indestructible soul, or spirit depending on the viewpoint, but then that dismisses that anything is actually 'put on' and instead shows only a 'shedding.' Indestructible must be "put on" and so why must it..., rather than 'he,' regardless of whoever you think 'he' may be 'he' most certainly is not 'they,' ... why then is it taught that 'it,' , or they that put on indestructible, be taken out of the way to avoid being destroyed?

 

[pottersclay]

Is this statement by the LORD directed at people under God's wrath?

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

The rapture is not for the whole church but a remnant of it.....those that had oil.
Good post you have here because it had me puzzled for somtime too.
Scripture tells us to pray that we might be worthy to escape the wrath which is to come.
With the ten virgins we see half with oil half with none. Half went to greet.
My question for many is if you cant live for Jesus now what makes you think you can do so through the trib?
Those that remain will be Justified by being martyrs.
As Jesus said " those that will lose their life for my name sake shall save it".
The end of the gentiles is also the end of grace. The book of revelation is the revealing of the Christ, to see and make known. Physical. Now those things which were hidden are now revealed.....no grace needed every eye sees.

 

[DavidTree]

The rapture is not for the whole church but a remnant of it.....those that had oil.
Good post you have here because it had me puzzled for somtime too.
Scripture tells us to pray that we might be worthy to escape the wrath which is to come.
With the ten virgins we see half with oil half with none. Half went to greet.
My question for many is if you cant live for Jesus now what makes you think you can do so through the trib?
Those that remain will be Justified by being martyrs.
As Jesus said " those that will lose their life for my name sake shall save it".
The end of the gentiles is also the end of grace. The book of revelation is the revealing of the Christ, to see and make known. Physical. Now those things which were hidden are now revealed.....no grace needed every eye sees.

Please send some love and help my way Brother = Can you present for us a Scriptural Diagnosis for the 5 foolish virgins who are left behind along with the 'rapture of the remnant'.

This comes to my mind from your response to me = "Love covers a multitude of sins" (benefit to me from you - thank you)
By pre-trib standards i have committed a multitude of sins, even to the point of declaring pre-trib a outright lie.

I believe i am ready now to have my mind adjusted thru the Word and Love, if you can help along with this extradition.

 

[presidente]

Do post-tribbers believe that as God’s elect, we are subject to the same wrath as everyone else? For instance, at some point the earth will be bombarded with 75 lb hailstones (Rev 16:21). Are we subject to God’s wrath in that we will be crushed along with everyone else? Or will they not effect us? When those crazy looking locusts are tormenting the population, are we to be supernaturally protected from them?

Since Revelation shows saints on the earth during difficult times, are you also thinking God is angry at these believers? 'Wrath' does not mean bad stuff happening.

A lot of Christians may be wiped out by persecutors. But that has been happening for centuries.

Have a look at Revelation 9,
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

If you’re a post-tribber (or even a non-tribber) convince me that I’m wrong. I wouldn’t want to believe God for something that’s never going to happen based on misinterpreted scripture.

I was raised pre-trib. What caused me to back off of it was actually looking for the rapture in passages that seemed to show a sequence of events. There is no pre-trib rapture mentioned in Matthew 24. The gathering of the elect is set after the sign of the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven. Paul uses similar situation-- gathering....coming II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul also writes about the parousia-- the coming of Christ. I have read that for a parousia of a government official, the city people might come out to meet a government official and greet him and escort him back into the city.

It doesn't make sense for us to posit multiple 'parousia' when Paul writes about one of them. Let us consider some things that happen at the parousia:
1. The rapture and resurrection according to I Thessalonians 4.
2. "That wicked" (presumably the man of sin) being destroyed at the brightness of His coming. II Thessalonians 2.
3. The dead are made alive at His coming according to I Corinthians 15.

According to the pre-trib scenarios I've heard, the rapture happens, then the man of sin is revealed and there is a time of world peace at first. But in Paul's writings, Jesus comes back and executes judgment on them that know not God, and 'that wicked' is destroyed by the brightness of his passage.

There is no pre-trib rapture laid out in Matthew 24. It's not in the Thessalonians passages.

And pre-tribbers will take a passage that doesn't have any pre-trib evidence in it and try to interpret it around pre-trib. I've seen this with II Thessalonians 2. But it doesn't fit the passage.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you’re a post-tribber (or even a non-tribber) convince me that I’m wrong. I wouldn’t want to believe God for something that’s never going to happen based on misinterpreted scripture.
Anybody?

Just saw this thread, and happy to oblige! I was raised in a Christian home and believed from an early age that Jesus will come and take believers to heaven (rapture).

Then I discovered the "Berean study method", per Act 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

This is what the Bible says about the resurrection:

1. The Bible teaches that there will be just one resurrection of the saved.

• Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
• Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
• Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

These verses all describe the resurrection of the saved in the singular; that means one resurrection.

2. The Bible teaches that there will be one resurrection of the unsaved.
- Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The Bible teaches when the resurrection of the saved will be.
- 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, this single resurrection will occur “when He comes”. The Bible clearly says when that will be.

4. The resurrection of the saved will include EVERY believer from Adam forward.

• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. It is obvious that every person who has believed in Christ do belong to Him.

5. The Bible teaches that the single resurrection of the saved will occur “when He comes” which is shown in 2 verses.

• 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, The context from ch 1 shows this “coming” is the Second Advent.
• Rev 20:4,5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

So we see in v.5 that the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is “the first resurrection”. The parentheses at the beginning of v.5 refers to all unbelievers who will be in the second resurrection, which will occur at the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ, for the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

Rev 20:5 tells us clearly that all believers, or “those who belong to Him” will be resurrected “when He comes” and Rev 20 shows that to be at the end of the Tribulation.

6. Finally, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven ever. This is the foundation for the “pretrib rapture” teaching.

That said, since there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, there is no "rapture", at least as the pretribbers think.

At the singular resurrection of the saved, those who are alive and remain will be "caught up" together with the dead saints and be given glorified bodies. But, since this occurs at the Second Advent, no one is going to heaven. All believers will accompany Jesus Christ to earth for the Millennial reign of King Jesus.

 

[pottersclay]

Please send some love and help my way Brother = Can you present for us a Scriptural Diagnosis for the 5 foolish virgins who are left behind along with the 'rapture of the remnant'.

This comes to my mind from your response to me = "Love covers a multitude of sins" (benefit to me from you - thank you)
By pre-trib standards i have committed a multitude of sins, even to the point of declaring pre-trib a outright lie.

I believe i am ready now to have my mind adjusted thru the Word and Love, if you can help along with this extradition.

Would love to saint. Ive struggled back and forth for sometime but am now rooted into pre trib truth.
I believe the trib triggers more than disappearance. Allow me to get it together.
Let us both agree that the lord blesses our understanding.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

My opinion is. If a good Christian of the body of Christ that Jesus knows, was to die. The mercy is that you would not feel the pain of death, and transition to heaven.

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

GRACE And Peace...

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Thank you. You’ve made a lot of good points. With all I’m learning, I gotta say that my pre trib stance isn’t as strong as it was a few days ago. But here’s my problem. Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour of his coming. for a post trib coming (or rapture) all we really have to do is wait for thé antichrist to declare himself God, and boom! We can calculate exactly when His coming will occur. Why does He depict his coming as a thief in the night when that scenario is apparently never going to happen. I’m confused more than ever.

When our Groom said He is going to prepare a place for us, and He’s coming back to take us to where He is, when and how did that take place? Am I expecting something that was never going to happen?

What happens to you once you get to heaven pre trib?

Judgment of 1 Corinthians 3:8-15...

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Beckie]

Reading this thread i find bits of Scripture twisted to fit here and there . So many Christians have their eyes of a country and some antichrist . Are theses Scriptures any less Scripture :

Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Luk_11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
Joh_17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Mar_3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Mat_25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: not sheep from sheep

 

[eXric]

not real

The Lord, the Head of His Body will be telling us by His Holy Spirit that the time is drawing near so that we are ready and NOT overtaken. We also need to be `eagerly waiting for Him,` (Heb. 9: 28).
(1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3)

This statement of your is what I believe is true. this theme is repeated many times in the Bible. Maybe none believes will hear the call but it will only sound like trumpets, where believers will hear God speaking to them.

 

[Beckie]

Thank you. You’ve made a lot of good points. With all I’m learning, I gotta say that my pre trib stance isn’t as strong as it was a few days ago. But here’s my problem. Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour of his coming. for a post trib coming (or rapture) all we really have to do is wait for thé antichrist to declare himself God, and boom! We can calculate exactly when His coming will occur. Why does He depict his coming as a thief in the night when that scenario is apparently never going to happen. I’m confused more than ever.

What Scripture tells us to look for an antichrist?