And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Did you ever consider that the adversary is USING this as a tool AGAINST you knowing it goes against all God tells us He is
There is NO good purpose in eternal torment. There is nothing to be gained. There isn't even a good OUTCOME to look forward to. There are no lesson to be taught nor learned from it. It just makes God look evil and vindictive. How can things to wonderful be coming to us, if the lake of fire will have any part in it? Do you NEED a reminder of how EVIL humans can be? Does the KNOWLEDGE and REMEMBRANCE of EVIL for ever and ever make the lives of those who never were, who were hurt by it 'better' somehow?

But worst of all, it stands NO CHANCE, on any level, of ever producing either MERCY OR LOVE. Not now and not then.


ABSOULTELY there is no DENIAL in mans 'inner' being, as torture of ANY LIVING THING for all of eternity, no matter the shape or form is nothing but cruel, HENCE the discussion. DEATH is the KINDEST thing to do for those who don't make it. And for those who do.


Hosea 6:5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth:
and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Hosea 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant there have they dealt treacherously against me.


Do you think those exact words are some sort of accident? God desires mercy, NOT SACRIFICE. Not burnt offerings. Is that what YOU are teaching? Is that the GOD you are putting forth to the EWEs?



Eternal torment is WITHOUT REASON except to be cruel.


Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?


I PRAY you will pray on this, ESPECIALLY BEFORE YOU CONTINUE ON TEACHING IT. THIS is the most severe type of judgment, come JUDGMENT. I know all our sins are forgiven and therefore we DON'T pay the penalty of death, but that doesn't stop the everything said and done in this body from being brought forth. Vessels of Gold unto honor vessels of wood unto dishonor...We will be graded.

I have prayed about it. To be clear, I don't mind one iota if God decided to annihilate the souls of the damned.
But that is not what he has revealed to us in scripture.

God says he is good. Do you believe he is good because he said so or do you only believe he is good if he meets your requirements? God can't be boxed in. We have no right to call God cruel. I don't think he is cruel & I wouldn't suggest
such a thing. He said that vengeance is his. There is no point in complaining that he will keep his word. He is God, he is
entitled to do things we cannot or should not do. We certainly can't judge God.

You have to get a handle on scripture & stop jumbling up blessings for the saved with the eternal fate of the damned.

 

[Runningman]

I have biblical proof and you have nothing. What verse tells us that God WILL destroy souls? None.
What verse tells us that God gives immortality only to believers?
What verse tells us that souls will cease to exist?
What universe exists where death means cease to exist?


You keep revealing your failure to understand verses. They all refer to physical bodies.

The bodies of unbelievers will be resurrected to appear at the GWT judgment, and then be cast into the LOF. Their bodies will be destroyed and cease to exist.

You have NO verses that SAY that souls will cease to exist in the LOF.
You have NO verses that SAY that the souls of believers will be given immortality.

You have nothing.

More powerless words wiry hour scriptural backing. If you have verses that say the death, destruction, or perishing of the unsaved applies only to the physical body then let’s talk. Meanwhile, Jesus said to fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Hang your hat on the word “can” if you insist, but I don’t think Jesus ever made any empty threat. Do you?

 

[Runningman]

I PRAY you will pray on this, ESPECIALLY BEFORE YOU CONTINUE ON TEACHING IT. THIS is the most severe type of judgment, come JUDGMENT. I know all our sins are forgiven and therefore we DON'T pay the penalty of death, but that doesn't stop the everything said and done in this body from being brought forth. Vessels of Gold unto honor vessels of wood unto dishonor...We will be graded.

Good reminder. Our sins are forgiven and we have many brothers and sisters who just won’t see the same on the point of what happens to the unsaved. We’ll be graded, but I think many will be happy to just get in the gate. Praise God for His love and mercy.

I believe we should be able to ask God for wisdom still then we’ll all obey and immediately conform to the truth. Perhaps then everything will be very clear and the church will be all in the same page. How beautiful would that be.

 

[kleronomos]

Good thorough thread. I think we found some new proofs along the way that aren’t very commonly seen, if at all, on the Internet if this topic is searched for. Glory to God.

I think we did an awesome job, I learned a lot myself. I believe that anyone who is searching for truth will be able to see both sides of the issue quite clearly and walk away with everything needed. Now I suspect that the other side will have to get 'the last word in' but I'm good. THANK YOU AGAIN, for sharing some very eye opening points. I do love new knowledge so. I must admit, I am a little weary of what we DON'T AGREE on but even that I look forward to as your use of Scripture makes it easy for me to understand.

Have a wonderful day and GOD BLESS YOU and all you love

 

[Runningman]

I have prayed about it. To be clear, I don't mind one iota if God decided to annihilate the souls of the damned.
But that is not what he has revealed to us in scripture.

God says he is good. Do you believe he is good because he said so or do you only believe he is good if he meets your requirements? God can't be boxed in. We have no right to call God cruel. I don't think he is cruel & I wouldn't suggest
such a thing. He said that vengeance is his. There is no point in complaining that he will keep his word. He is God, he is
entitled to do things we cannot or should not do. We certainly can't judge God.

You have to get a handle on scripture & stop jumbling up blessings for the saved with the eternal fate of the damned.

Actually God doesn’t eternally torment all of the unsaved so the cruelness that you say doesn’t apply to God is accurate, but from your perspective God does punish all of the unsaved with eternal torment. It’s like you are judging yourself without realizing it.

I think your problem is you’re taking the position that you’re right and no one is seeming to understand it since you’re wrong.

 

[Runningman]

I think we did an awesome job, I learned a lot myself. I believe that anyone who is searching for truth will be able to see both sides of the issue quite clearly and walk away with everything needed. Now I suspect that the other side will have to get 'the last word in' but I'm good. THANK YOU AGAIN, for sharing some very eye opening points. I do love new knowledge so. I must admit, I am a little weary of what we DON'T AGREE on but even that I look forward to as your use of Scripture makes it easy for me to understand.

Have a wonderful day and GOD BLESS YOU and all you love

very eye-opening and interesting. I can’t say I wavered even a bit in my solidarity on this topic. Yes they’ll insist on the last word, but so will I. This thread might go on for a few years or so or until someone gets tired. I never tire of talking about the Bible. I guess we’ll see how it goes. As soon as they stop talking I’ll move on.

I know that isn’t ideal, but shouldn’t the word of God have the last word in all circumstances? I’ll throw my life upholding the truth. Just seems like reasonable service to me.

 

[kleronomos]

very eye-opening and interesting. I can’t say I wavered even a bit in my solidarity on this topic. Yes they’ll insist on the last word, but so will I. This thread might go on for a few years or so or until someone gets tired. I never tire of talking about the Bible. I guess we’ll see how it goes. As soon as they stop talking I’ll move on.

I know that isn’t ideal, but shouldn’t the word of God have the last word in all circumstances? I’ll throw my life upholding the truth. Just seems like reasonable service to me.

HOW EVER THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS YOU IS GREAT WITH ME. We are all called to do His will in different ways. I applaud you for hearing yours.

Can't wait to meet you on the other side...or maybe even somewhere on this one, 'overcoming' and 'enduring' to the end. Love to hear those who are willing to pick up their cross and FOLLOW HIM. So few are these days. I would go on, but don't want to blind side anyone, so just in case and not the place. BUT I can pray... So solider on fellow servant

 

[FreeGrace2]

No. The resurrection consists of the body, soul, and spirit.

Prove it from the Bible. A verse is needed. In EVERY text about the resurrection, it is the BODY that is resurrected immortal.

That’s clear from the Bible.

Then quote a verse, rather than your opinions.

Do you disagree?

I disagree because you DON'T have a verse.

I don’t need any more useless nonsense from you. Just quote a single verse, if you’re able to, and prove it.

No, you need to prove that the resurrection involves body soul and spirit. I reject that unbiblical opinion.

Now, prove me wrong. With a verse or as many as it takes. Shouldn't be more than 3 tops.

And, once again, you ignored all of my questions, that would have proved YOUR view, if you could answer them.

FreeGrace2 said:
I have biblical proof and you have nothing. What verse tells us that God WILL destroy souls? None.
What verse tells us that God gives immortality only to believers?
What verse tells us that souls will cease to exist?
What universe exists where death means cease to exist?

If you have verses that show what I'm asking, you will have proven your case.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Bottom line is your eternal torment for all unsaved doctrine just isn’t in the Bible.

Well said

FINALLY.

Just need to be careful that it isn't snatched back away. Go back over the thread if you ever feel yourself wavering.

The Lord works in mysterious ways. He surely does.

You know what I meant. Your false doctrine is that there is NO ECT for the unsaved. So prove it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I have biblical proof and you have nothing. What verse tells us that God WILL destroy souls? None.
What verse tells us that God gives immortality only to believers?
What verse tells us that souls will cease to exist?
What universe exists where death means cease to exist?

More powerless words wiry hour scriptural backing.

OK, no verses that would answer my questions. So of course you don't have any verses that would prove your position.

If you have verses that say the death, destruction, or perishing of the unsaved applies only to the physical body then let’s talk.

Please don't act so dense. In EVERY passage about the resurrection, it is about the BODY. I guess you just haven't read them yet. You should. Soon.

IF my questions above would be answered with a verse, you will have proven your case. I'm trying to help you prove your case.

Meanwhile, Jesus said to fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Not that again. Hell is NOT the LOF. The issue here is the LOF, not Hades. Wake up.

"can" does NOT mean "will". Will that ever sink in? I'm beginning to doubt that.

Hang your hat on the word “can” if you insist, but I don’t think Jesus ever made any empty threat. Do you?

It wasn't a threat. It was a statement. Threats always come with "if...", in other words, "if you do _______, then I'll do _______.

That's how a threat works.

But again, "can" NEVER means "will", as you erroneously opine.

 

[Jackson123]

Besides the WORD "eternal', when you read the Bible Precept on precept verse by verse...learning from the schoolmaster, going through time with the Lord God Almighty, as He choose the family though which He would come in the flesh and as He led and guided them, giving us His ways and laws, making sure it was all written down so we would have the examples of what to do and what not to do, and how we would promise to love, honor and obey Him, then time after time go off after other gods, where He would let us to our own devices but then either through His wrath or the world beating us down, would let us return to Him in which HE WOULD ALWAYS show us mercy and forgive us, even when He wanted to be our King but we wanted and earthy one, so He came in the flesh and we rejected HIM YET AGAIN, by killing Him, yet EVEN in that rejection He used His own death to invited the whole world into His salvation THROUGH HIS GRACE AND MERCY,

did you start seeing Him as a GOD who was ABLE to TORTURE without end, for no reason, no HIS OWN SONS, , because they WERE DECEIVED or didn't come to belief?

Did you, when you saw the word 'eternal punishment' immediately go from all you had learned and all you had experienced in His love and compassion and mercy and protection

and think YEAH, THAT SOUNDS ABOUT RIGHT. He does seem like HE would just love to watch His sons being tortured day in and day out FOREVER AND EVER

and then even when you had those who said HEY, wait, wait, that isn't the way it was meant, it was meant as to letting us know that once our body and soul went into the lake of fire, that would be the end of us forever?

Did it ever cross your HEART AND SOUL that the smoke of their torment HURT HIM? That BECAUSE of His nature, that nature being Just and Right and Holy and Loving and Compassionate along with the promises HE SWORE TO by Himself, that it was HARD ENOUGH JUST to sentence them to death? Did you ever think, GOD wouldn't want it, NOT JUST because all the evil they did was for such a short duration and to be punished for that forever WAS NOT JUST, WAS NOT FAIR, WAS NOT RIGHT, WAS NOT FULL OF COMPASSION,

Especially because ALL THE EVIL they did, HE MORE THAN RECOMPENSED.

You have souls who NEVER WERE SAVED being punished for all eternity. What about all those who lived while 'the law' was only for ISRAEL? Because they were not of that family they are to be tortured for all eternity?

Those who loved God but not enough to NOT BE DECEIVED and so NOT UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS do they EVEN know they were
deceived THEY suffer FOR ALL ETERNITY?

Those who 'loved the ways of the world' over reading the BIBLE and coming to faith NEED TO BE TORTURED FOR ALL ETERNITY?


surely you must see the INJUSTICE IN THAT.

ISN'T DEATH ENOUGH?

LIFE IS THE REWARD

DEATH IS THE PUNISHMENT

ETERNITY IS THE DURATION



You get drunk and kill someone and are SENTENCED to 10 years in jail.

What is your punishment? The 10 years in jail.

10 years later you get out of jail.

DO THEY turn around and put you back in jail for another 10 years

OR HAVE YOU ALREADY BEEN PUNISHED FOR THAT CRIME?

ONCE YOU GET OUT OF JAIL WILL YOU HAVE FOREVER BEEN PUNISHED?

If your sentence was death, and then they killed you, would you have received your punishment?

TO BE SURE you understand that I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING

You are saying that souls go into the lake of fire and they remain AWARE of their torment for all eternity.


I completely disagree. YOU posting it again will not make me change my mind and you will not BULLY me into it by posting it again. Please drop it. It has been posted more than anything else. EVERYONE has considered your point.

I am not forgetting the word eternal, I am not forgetting the word punishment, I understand their definitions, I understand your position. I understand why you have that position.

AGAIN, Please don't post it here. If you wish to speak on it some more, PLEASE, start your own thread. Thank you

God love and give us opportunity to be forgiven but God is just and honest, He will punish exactly like He will do, eternal punishment is real, because it is what He say
i am a sinner, I wish no punishment et all and all sinner go to heaven in the reason of love , but not my will,His will be done

why you try to say that is not He say?

say like what He say it is eternal punishment for goat.

goat have opportunity to be sheep on his life time on earth, up to them to repent and accept His Son or not

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually God doesn’t eternally torment all of the unsaved so the cruelness that you say doesn’t apply to God is accurate, but from your perspective God does punish all of the unsaved with eternal torment.

Well, thanks for unwittingly showing just how confused you are.

First, you claim that "God doesn't eternally torment all of the unsaved". then you claim that "God does punish all of the unsaved with eternal torment".

And since you believe that God destroys the souls of unbelievers, how does a non-entity feel 'torment'. That's what you need to explain.

I think your problem is you’re taking the position that you’re right and no one is seeming to understand it since you’re wrong.

No, Lucy is taking the position that the Bible is clear that all unbelievers will feel eternal torment, day and night, for ever and ever.

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
Bottom line is your eternal torment for all unsaved doctrine just isn’t in the Bible.

You know what I meant. Your false doctrine is that there is NO ECT for the unsaved. So prove it.

In the interest of honesty and fair play, yes, I did know and understand that you believe in eternal torment.

 

[kleronomos]

Well, thanks for unwittingly showing just how confused you are.

First, you claim that "God doesn't eternally torment all of the unsaved". then you claim that "God does punish all of the unsaved with eternal torment".

And since you believe that God destroys the souls of unbelievers, how does a non-entity feel 'torment'. That's what you need to explain.


No, Lucy is taking the position that the Bible is clear that all unbelievers will feel eternal torment, day and night, for ever and ever.

So I cleared up the mistake you made, I hope you will do the same AS YOU KNOW he is not confused in the slightest and he does not vary in position and so that statement is deceptive.

 

[Runningman]

Well, thanks for unwittingly showing just how confused you are.

First, you claim that "God doesn't eternally torment all of the unsaved". then you claim that "God does punish all of the unsaved with eternal torment".

you don’t have the benefit of the doubt so you’re being dishonest again.

how does a non-entity feel 'torment'. That's what you need to explain.

That’s your position. Please explain how non-entities feeling eternal torment using scripture. That’s been the whole point of this thread and you have nothing in the whole Bible to explain it.

No, Lucy is taking the position that the Bible is clear that all unbelievers will feel eternal torment, day and night, for ever and ever.

And Lucy is utterly wrong as well as yourself. The Bible says the unsaved perish. God destroys soul and body in hell.

 

[Jackson123]

you don’t have the benefit of the doubt so you’re being dishonest again.



That’s your position. Please explain how non-entities feeling eternal torment using scripture. That’s been the whole point of this thread and you have nothing in the whole Bible to explain it.




And Lucy is utterly wrong as well as yourself. The Bible says the unsaved perish. God destroys soul and body in hell.

Unsaved go to eternal punishment

 

[Runningman]

So I cleared up the mistake you made, I hope you will do the same AS YOU KNOW he is not confused in the slightest and he does not vary in position and so that statement is deceptive.

Yes, thank you. I believe he’s running out of ideas. He occasionally resorts to using insults and creating false charges. This isn’t just a Bible discussion here, this is spiritual warfare. Notice that it’s us who have stayed calm and collected the whole time.

 

[Runningman]

Unsaved go to eternal punishment

Awesome we agree then. And the eternal punishment is death.

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Runningman]

God love and give us opportunity to be forgiven but God is just and honest, He will punish exactly like He will do, eternal punishment is real, because it is what He say
i am a sinner, I wish no punishment et all and all sinner go to heaven in the reason of love , but not my will,His will be done

why you try to say that is not He say?

say like what He say it is eternal punishment for goat.

goat have opportunity to be sheep on his life time on earth, up to them to repent and accept His Son or not

Eternal punishment is death. There aren’t any verses that say otherwise.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
I have biblical proof and you have nothing. What verse tells us that God WILL destroy souls? None.
What verse tells us that God gives immortality only to believers?
What verse tells us that souls will cease to exist?
What universe exists where death means cease to exist?

OK, no verses that would answer my questions. So of course you don't have any verses that would prove your position.


Please don't act so dense. In EVERY passage about the resurrection, it is about the BODY. I guess you just haven't read them yet. You should. Soon.

IF my questions above would be answered with a verse, you will have proven your case. I'm trying to help you prove your case.


Not that again. Hell is NOT the LOF. The issue here is the LOF, not Hades. Wake up.

"can" does NOT mean "will". Will that ever sink in? I'm beginning to doubt that.


It wasn't a threat. It was a statement. Threats always come with "if...", in other words, "if you do _______, then I'll do _______.

That's how a threat works.

But again, "can" NEVER means "will", as you erroneously opine.

God destroys soul and body in hell because that’s the alternative to being saved and having eternal life. Have someone read Matthew 10:28 to you, slowly, until you understand this.

Jesus confirmed this same thing in John 3:16. Believe in Him or perish, it’s very very simple, but you people are trying to make this so complicated because you’re unwilling to accept what the Bible says.