And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
- Thread starter kleronomos
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
peldom10 said:
You can be ...not Christian.
I choose not.
End here.
It is very clear that he didn't he was choosing not to be a Christian, he was telling YOU that are are free to not be a Christian.
But, as for him, I chooses NOT to be "not Christian".
You demonstrate a poor grasp of words, apparently, which hasn't helped you understand Scripture.
What you do need to know is what the Bible teaches.
You can be ...not Christian.
I choose not.
End here.
It is very clear that he didn't he was choosing not to be a Christian, he was telling YOU that are are free to not be a Christian.
But, as for him, I chooses NOT to be "not Christian".
You demonstrate a poor grasp of words, apparently, which hasn't helped you understand Scripture.
What you do need to know is what the Bible teaches.
Nah, he is saying "you" are not Christian.
But, he has little discernment, so there is that...
Case in point: he pushes a works' based salvation, believing it is earthly water (water baptism as opposed
to Holy Spirit baptism) that saves people and not the water Jesus gives that springs into eternal life.
Jesus clearly makes a distinction between earthly water and that which He gives.
But, he has little discernment, so there is that...
Case in point: he pushes a works' based salvation, believing it is earthly water (water baptism as opposed
to Holy Spirit baptism) that saves people and not the water Jesus gives that springs into eternal life.
Jesus clearly makes a distinction between earthly water and that which He gives.
-
1
- Show all
Ah okay cool. I actually enjoy it now when people say bad things about me for being a Christian and preaching the truth. So far he’s popped in and said we’re dead wrong, a joke, stupid, and not Christian. He’s added nothing of value to the conversation and hasn’t attempted to actually discuss anything.
Matthew 5:11,12
11Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets before you.
yeah I disagree with his beliefs about water baptism. Clearly salvation comes through Christ’s work alone.
Matthew 5:11,12
11Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets before you.
yeah I disagree with his beliefs about water baptism. Clearly salvation comes through Christ’s work alone.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
So
Yes I recall a different thread where if you posted scripture in a picture he would just give it an X. Quite strange to give a disagree reaction to scripture. 
He disagrees with a LOT of Scripture... as you can see above... he doles out those red Xs quite freely
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Rev 20:10 says that they will be tormented forever, but then there are verses that show that forever doesn't always mean literally forever.
Revelation 20:10
10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Sodom’s fiery judgment is ‘eternal’ (Jude 7) until God ‘will restore the fortunes of Sodom’ (Eze 16:53-55).
Israel’s ‘affliction is incurable’ (Jer 30:12) until the Lord ‘will restore health’ and heal her wounds (Jer 30:17).
The sin of Samaria ‘is incurable’ (Mic 1:9) until the Lord ‘will restore the fortunes of Samaria’ (Eze 16:53).
Ammon is to become a ‘wasteland forever’ and ‘rise no more’ (Zeph 2:9, Jer 25:27)
until the Lord will ‘restore the fortunes of the Ammonites’ (Jer 49:6).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation ‘forever’ - until the tenth generation (Deut 23:3).
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were ‘everlasting’... until they ‘were shattered’ (Hab 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an ‘everlasting’ priesthood (Exo 40:15) -
then it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb 7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon’s
Temple ‘forever’ (1 Kings 8:13), yet the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an ‘everlasting covenant’ (Lev 24:8), yet we read in the New Covenant
the first was ‘done away’ and ‘abolished’ (2 Cor 3:11,13), and God ‘made the first old’ (Heb 8:13).
The fire for Israel’s sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out.
It was to be ‘perpetual’ until Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now
have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev 6:12-13, Heb 8:6-13).
God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah ‘forever’ until the Lord delivers
him from the large fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).
Egypt and Elam will ‘rise no more’ (Jer 25:27) until the Lord will ‘restore the
fortunes of Egypt’ (Eze 29:14) and ‘restore the fortunes of Elam’ (Jer 49:39).
Israel’s judgment lasts ‘forever’ – until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa 32:13-15).
Many Bible translations tell us that a bondslave was to serve his master ‘forever’ (Exo 21:6), that is until his death.
That means Revelation 20:10 may not be forever. It can't be used as a verse to prove eternal conscious torment for all of the unsaved.
Thanks @Magenta for these verses typed out.
Revelation 20:10
10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Sodom’s fiery judgment is ‘eternal’ (Jude 7) until God ‘will restore the fortunes of Sodom’ (Eze 16:53-55).
Israel’s ‘affliction is incurable’ (Jer 30:12) until the Lord ‘will restore health’ and heal her wounds (Jer 30:17).
The sin of Samaria ‘is incurable’ (Mic 1:9) until the Lord ‘will restore the fortunes of Samaria’ (Eze 16:53).
Ammon is to become a ‘wasteland forever’ and ‘rise no more’ (Zeph 2:9, Jer 25:27)
until the Lord will ‘restore the fortunes of the Ammonites’ (Jer 49:6).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation ‘forever’ - until the tenth generation (Deut 23:3).
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were ‘everlasting’... until they ‘were shattered’ (Hab 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an ‘everlasting’ priesthood (Exo 40:15) -
then it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb 7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon’s
Temple ‘forever’ (1 Kings 8:13), yet the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an ‘everlasting covenant’ (Lev 24:8), yet we read in the New Covenant
the first was ‘done away’ and ‘abolished’ (2 Cor 3:11,13), and God ‘made the first old’ (Heb 8:13).
The fire for Israel’s sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out.
It was to be ‘perpetual’ until Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now
have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev 6:12-13, Heb 8:6-13).
God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah ‘forever’ until the Lord delivers
him from the large fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).
Egypt and Elam will ‘rise no more’ (Jer 25:27) until the Lord will ‘restore the
fortunes of Egypt’ (Eze 29:14) and ‘restore the fortunes of Elam’ (Jer 49:39).
Israel’s judgment lasts ‘forever’ – until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa 32:13-15).
Many Bible translations tell us that a bondslave was to serve his master ‘forever’ (Exo 21:6), that is until his death.
That means Revelation 20:10 may not be forever. It can't be used as a verse to prove eternal conscious torment for all of the unsaved.
Thanks @Magenta for these verses typed out.
-
1
- Show all
Very few are willing to do this. The few brave enough to break lockstep with the majority of evangelical Christians on the point of hell will just be attacked. Imagine losing your friends, maybe family too, being shunned by your congregation, and repenting of years of error just to adopt the truth. It’s definitely not something many will willingly expose themselves to because from this temporary perspective the consequences appear to outweigh the benefits.
But isn’t this exactly what Jesus said will happen?
Mark 8:35-38
35For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.
36What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?
37Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
Matthew 10:34-42
34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35For I have come to turn
“ ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
40“Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.
42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”
But isn’t this exactly what Jesus said will happen?
Mark 8:35-38
35For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.
36What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?
37Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
Matthew 10:34-42
34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35For I have come to turn
“ ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
40“Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.
42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”
Like speaking two different languages. EVEN if I did believe that
God was JUST, but only to those who loved Him,
God is righteous, but only to those who love Him,
God will be merciful, but only to those who will love Him.
Isn't it The Lord who TEACHES US
James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
James 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
James 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
James 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
I can't come close to saying it as well.
Has anyone ever thought about the 'lake of fire' as just being the tongue of God or just His speaking Judgment? . Fire burns the body and the 'breath' returns to Him. Maybe we have to get within so many feet and if we don't have enough good to keep from becoming a puff of smoke we make it, but if all that is left is ashes, it's just over. LIKE Sodom and the like cities. Just thinkin...not Scriptural, been on my mind a little bit lately, for some reason.
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
God was JUST, but only to those who loved Him,
God is righteous, but only to those who love Him,
God will be merciful, but only to those who will love Him.
Isn't it The Lord who TEACHES US
James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
James 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
James 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
James 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
I can't come close to saying it as well.
Has anyone ever thought about the 'lake of fire' as just being the tongue of God or just His speaking Judgment? . Fire burns the body and the 'breath' returns to Him. Maybe we have to get within so many feet and if we don't have enough good to keep from becoming a puff of smoke we make it, but if all that is left is ashes, it's just over. LIKE Sodom and the like cities. Just thinkin...not Scriptural, been on my mind a little bit lately, for some reason.
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
FreeGrace2 said:
None of these verses are in the context of Rev 20. They do not define v.10.
That's what your statement just did. Since you seem inadequately taught about what "context" means, I suggest you study up a bit.
It would definitely help you. That word is "context".
Is such snarky snippets really all that necessary, or is it that you just can't help yourself?
I run into them all the time.
None of these verses are in the context of Rev 20. They do not define v.10.
That's what your statement just did. Since you seem inadequately taught about what "context" means, I suggest you study up a bit.
It would definitely help you. That word is "context".
Is such snarky snippets really all that necessary, or is it that you just can't help yourself?
I run into them all the time.
What a absurd comment! As if all who disagree with you are in "lock-step" or something.
I've never ever quoted any other author, pastor, or any kind of source when I defend my position. I quote ONLY the Bible.
Our differences are basically how to understand words. But because you view ECT as being CRUEL, and you don't believe that God is CRUEL, you dismiss any biblical teaching about ECT.
What you whine about losing is because you have such a highly emotional misunderstanding about God's plan for unbelievers.
Seems there's a bit of a martyr complex going on as well.
I've never ever quoted any other author, pastor, or any kind of source when I defend my position. I quote ONLY the Bible.
Our differences are basically how to understand words. But because you view ECT as being CRUEL, and you don't believe that God is CRUEL, you dismiss any biblical teaching about ECT.
What you whine about losing is because you have such a highly emotional misunderstanding about God's plan for unbelievers.
Seems there's a bit of a martyr complex going on as well.
Who says this? God is just, and that means justice. There's 2 sides of justice. Freedom and punishment. The Bible is clear how to have freedom, and the results of rebellion.
This is just your hyper emotionalism speaking. God loves every human being, but has STANDARDS for who will receive the free gift of eternal life. Those who reject it get the warning about perishing.
More maudlin sentimentality speaking.
Why would or should anyone? The Bible TELLS us what the LOF is: being tormented day and night for ever and ever.
More like emoting.
Definitely not.
Or no reason whatsoever.
This is just your hyper emotionalism speaking. God loves every human being, but has STANDARDS for who will receive the free gift of eternal life. Those who reject it get the warning about perishing.
More maudlin sentimentality speaking.
Why would or should anyone? The Bible TELLS us what the LOF is: being tormented day and night for ever and ever.
More like emoting.
Definitely not.
Or no reason whatsoever.