An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation
- Thread starter Carry_Your_Name
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
It’s not the church of the firstborn as in it’s referring to Israel. That’d be like calling Jesus’s church the Church of Israel when the church doesn't belong to Israel. It’s called the church of the firstborn because Jesus is the first born and it’s the church of Christ.
Colossians 1:15
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn
I'm sorry, but are you being intentionally obtuse? Are you suggesting that the Parable of the Ten Virgins is about a wedding complete with bridesmaids, a bridegroom, with guests, and a wedding reception but there is no bride? In this case it's absolutely inferred that there is a bride.
The pretense for this question is false so it's invalid now. The church is repeatedly referred to as the bride of Christ in the New Testament. One is Ephesians 5:25-27, there are more.
Colossians 1:15
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn
I'm sorry, but are you being intentionally obtuse? Are you suggesting that the Parable of the Ten Virgins is about a wedding complete with bridesmaids, a bridegroom, with guests, and a wedding reception but there is no bride? In this case it's absolutely inferred that there is a bride.
The pretense for this question is false so it's invalid now. The church is repeatedly referred to as the bride of Christ in the New Testament. One is Ephesians 5:25-27, there are more.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Gal. 3:28. Israel is always the firstborn, all the gentiles are grafted into the big olive tree, no branch is greater than the tree. Rather than the "universal church", "commonwealth of Israel" is actually a more proper term to describe all God's people.
The bride has already adorned herself waiting for the groom at the chuppah on the wedding day, that was the custom in that culure, and the latter chapter in Revelation told that. There's no need for Jesus to lecture on the bride with these parables. However, it is the ten virgins' job to welcome the groom and lead him to the bride, and it is an invitation to the guests to come, they need to hear it, and that's us.
That's your mentality of entitlement as if a ticket to heaven is your fleshly birthright. From what I've heard, God has no grandchildren, the oil from the five wise virgins can't be shared with the five foolish virgins even if they wanted to share.
The bride has already adorned herself waiting for the groom at the chuppah on the wedding day, that was the custom in that culure, and the latter chapter in Revelation told that. There's no need for Jesus to lecture on the bride with these parables. However, it is the ten virgins' job to welcome the groom and lead him to the bride, and it is an invitation to the guests to come, they need to hear it, and that's us.
That's your mentality of entitlement as if a ticket to heaven is your fleshly birthright. From what I've heard, God has no grandchildren, the oil from the five wise virgins can't be shared with the five foolish virgins even if they wanted to share.
If all are one in Christ Jesus then everyone, regardless of their ethnicity, race, nationality, or gender are retroactively the firstborn. That's describing the church. If the tree is ethnic Israel and ethnic Israel rejects Christ, which they did, then the branches couldn't be grafted in. You have the cart in front of the horse here I'm afraid. That's why the church is the true Israel and why church members are true Jews.
Romans 2:28-29
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 9:6
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
The bridesmaids are more like something nice to have, but not required. If they were a necessary part of the wedding the 5 foolish virgins wouldn't have been shut out. If all 10 of the virgins were foolish then the wedding would not have had bridesmaids.
I have the mentality to receive a son's inheritance.
Romans 2:28-29
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 9:6
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
The bridesmaids are more like something nice to have, but not required. If they were a necessary part of the wedding the 5 foolish virgins wouldn't have been shut out. If all 10 of the virgins were foolish then the wedding would not have had bridesmaids.
I have the mentality to receive a son's inheritance.
-
1
- Show all
I'm basically saying that either the 144K were redeemed from the earth after the wrath of God appeared in the 6th seal, which I think is the least likely possibility, or Revelation is not chronological. John saw something and wrote it down. Revelation isn't really crystal clear, just trying to understand it slowly bit by bit.
Paul described the Gentiles as new branches being grafted into the tree for a reason. When he said that, there was a natural premise that the tree must still be there, God didn't chop down that tree and plant a new one, His extension of grace to the gentiles didn't invalidate His eternal covenant with Abraham. God's blessing comes from Abraham to all nations, and eventually, God will use all nations to bring Israel back to Him, either in a gentle way or in a tough way.
No, it's not necessary for God, it's necessary for US. God doesn't need us, He didn't create us because He needed us. WE NEED GOD.
No, it's not necessary for God, it's necessary for US. God doesn't need us, He didn't create us because He needed us. WE NEED GOD.
-
1
- Show all
If the question that was asked
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
And this, the answer given, doesn't that tell us?
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Can we place it anywhere else?
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
And this, the answer given, doesn't that tell us?
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Can we place it anywhere else?
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Actually, when Jesus preached that message, the vast majority of His audience were Jewish; on the other hand, when Paul wrote Romans, many of his readers were Romans, which were a "mixed multitude" in biblical terms. So speaking of the Gentile church, Paul's writing should be more relevant than Jesus's in that regard. Metaphors were different, the principle is the same.
Yes, Jesus is the vine but 'who better not boast' and WHO will be saved?
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. ABRAHAMS SEED (through Isaac) IS ISRAEL.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. ABRAHAMS SEED (through Isaac) IS ISRAEL.
-
1
- Show all
O
I was talking about the list in Revelation 7.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. - Revelation 7:5-8
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. - Revelation 7:5-8
- Status