A Study of Torah from Gen. - Rev.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex 28:1-25
1 "Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron's sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
2 And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty.

Though some have made the claim that all of Aaron's descendants were to members of the High priest, others say this isn't so. As noted in the passage, only 4 of his sons are named in the passage. There is a high likely hood that he had grandsons living at this time. The sages say that any that were a live at this time remained Levites, therefore would only as priest to the people.

3 So you shall speak to all who are gifted artisans, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments, to consecrate him, that he may minister to Me as priest.
4 And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, an ephod, a robe, a skillfully woven tunic, a turban, and a sash. So they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons, that he may minister to Me as priest.
5 "They shall take the gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine linen,
6 and they shall make the ephod of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, artistically worked.
7 It shall have two shoulder straps joined at its two edges, and so it shall be joined together.
8 And the intricately woven band of the ephod, which is on it, shall be of the same workmanship, made of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen.
9 Then you shall take two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel:
10 six of their names on one stone, and six names on the other stone, in order of their birth.
11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, you shall engrave the two stones with the names of the sons of Israel. You shall set them in settings of gold.
12 And you shall put the two stones on the shoulders of the ephod as memorial stones for the sons of Israel. So Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord on his two shoulders as a memorial.
13 You shall also make settings of gold,
14 and you shall make two chains of pure gold like braided cords, and fasten the braided chains to the settings.
15 "You shall make the breastplate of judgment. Artistically woven according to the workmanship of the ephod you shall make it: of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, you shall make it.

It has been said that the people doing this work had been given the understanding of just what to do, and how by HaShem. The Temple Institute has recreated the close of th4e high priest today. Yet even in doing so, they can't say for sure how it was done back then. In fact the blue that was used in the vest was not so easy to come by. It was nothing more than a simple placement of what they were working with that brought it light. I may be wrong on what they used, though I think it had something to do with a form of shrimp. Any way, it was placed where the sun would hit it, and with out knowing what they had done, left for the night. The next day, after being in the sun for something like 6-8 hours, ( not straght, as night wouldhave passed.) they came back in, and there in the jar was the color they had been working to make. As it turned out, all they needed was sun light to turn the some what drab blue, into the brilliant blue they needed.

16 It shall be doubled into a square: a span shall be its length, and a span shall be its width.
17 And you shall put settings of stones in it, four rows of stones: The first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and an emerald; this shall be the first row;
18 the second row shall be a turquoise, a sapphire, and a diamond;
19 the third row, a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst;
20 and the fourth row, a beryl, an onyx, and a jasper. They shall be set in gold settings.
21 And the stones shall have the names of the sons of Israel, twelve according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, each one with its own name; they shall be according to the twelve tribes.

I know that I sat through a teaching on the meaning of the stones, and what color was used for what name, with all the whys and so on. Sadly I can't recall any of it. The Chumash gives no info on it, so if anyone knows please post it. Keep in mind that there may well be many different teachings on this. So please, if you disagree with anyone on it, keep in this in mind. After all, there is no way to show who is right and who is wrong.

22 "You shall make chains for the breastplate at the end, like braided cords of pure gold.
23 And you shall make two rings of gold for the breastplate, and put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.
24 Then you shall put the two braided chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate;
25 and the other two ends of the two braided chains you shall fasten to the two settings, and put them on the shoulder straps of the ephod in the front.

One last thing. Once more this can't be shown as right or wrong. It is a matter of faith that leads any one to follow this. It has been said by more than one teacher, that the stones would light up in answer to questions that were of major important. As each stone light up, it would give the answer, this was how they spook with HaShem, and He answered them. At first I had my own idea of this teaching. Then I had to rethink it. You see to say it is a yarn, would be much like placing limits on what HaShem can do. So though it does sound some what strange to us, We should keep an open mind. HaShem as we know can do what ever He wishes, for what ever reason He wishes.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex28:26-43
26 "You shall make two rings of gold, and put them on the two ends of the breastplate, on the edge of it, which is on the inner side of the ephod.
27 And two other rings of gold you shall make, and put them on the two shoulder straps, underneath the ephod toward its front, right at the seam above the intricately woven band of the ephod.
28 They shall bind the breastplate by means of its rings to the rings of the ephod, using a blue cord, so that it is above the intricately woven band of the ephod, and so that the breastplate does not come loose from the ephod.
29 So Aaron shall bear the names of the sons of Israel on the breastplate of judgment over his heart, when he goes into the holy place, as a memorial before the Lord continually.
30 And you shall put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be over Aaron's heart when he goes in before the Lord. So Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel over his heart before the Lord continually.
31 "You shall make the robe of the ephod all of blue.
32 There shall be an opening for his head in the middle of it; it shall have a woven binding all around its opening, like the opening in a coat of mail, so that it does not tear.
33 "And upon its hem you shall make pomegranates of blue, purple, and scarlet, all around its hem, and bells of gold between them all around:
34 a golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe all around.
35 And it shall be upon Aaron when he ministers, and its sound will be heard when he goes into the holy place before the Lord and when he comes out, that he may not die.
36 "You shall also make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it, like the engraving of a signet: HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
37 And you shall put it on a blue cord, that it may be on the turban; it shall be on the front of the turban.
38 So it shall be on Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things which the children of Israel hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall always be on his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord.
39 "You shall skillfully weave the tunic of fine linen thread, you shall make the turban of fine linen, and you shall make the sash of woven work.
40 "For Aaron's sons you shall make tunics, and you shall make sashes for them. And you shall make hats for them, for glory and beauty.
41 So you shall put them on Aaron your brother and on his sons with him. You shall anoint them, consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister to Me as priests.
42 And you shall make for them linen trousers to cover their nakedness; they shall reach from the waist to the thighs.
43 They shall be on Aaron and on his sons when they come into the tabernacle of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister in the holy place, that they do not incur iniquity and die. It shall be a statute forever to him and his descendants after him.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex. 29:1-29
1 "And this is what you shall do to them to hallow them for ministering to Me as priests: Take one young bull and two rams without blemish,
2 and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil (you shall make them of wheat flour).
3 You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, with the bull and the two rams.
4 And Aaron and his sons you shall bring to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and you shall wash them with water.

The idea and action of immersion is not a new idea at all. Though we see the word wash, immersion was the inteded idea. Though we call it baptism, the action and what it signalizes remains the same. In that should show the washing away of sin, and being raised a new person.

5 Then you shall take the garments, put the tunic on Aaron, and the robe of the ephod, the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the intricately woven band of the ephod.
6 You shall put the turban on his head, and put the holy crown on the turban.
7 And you shall take the anointing oil, pour it on his head, and anoint him.
8 Then you shall bring his sons and put tunics on them.
9 And you shall gird them with sashes, Aaron and his sons, and put the hats on them. The priesthood shall be theirs for a perpetual statute. So you shall consecrate Aaron and his sons.

Many times it has been said that the priesthood has changed with Yeshua. Though that is true, it has not been removed from the house of Aaron, to the house of Judah. You see with ever new High priest, there was change, both in Rabbinic law, as well as how things were done. At lest to some extent. Yet with Yeshua, many things did change, the house of Aaron, and Judah were united. This can be seen in Luke. We find in the first chapter a description of the work done by Zacharias, in it are the actions of the High priest.
Marry as we are told is the cousin of Elisabeth, who is from the house of Aaron. This would give us the idea that Marry may also be from the house by blood. Though she may not be in a direct line, she is still of that house, as well as being by blood from the house of Judah.
As we should al know, HaShem will not violate His own laws, so when He placed the priesthood in the house of Aaron, as an eternal duty, (as it is phrased in the Chumash) He wouldn't remove it from that house. EVER!

10 "You shall also have the bull brought before the tabernacle of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the bull.
11 Then you shall kill the bull before the Lord, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting.
12 You shall take some of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour all the blood beside the base of the altar.
13 And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and burn them on the altar.
14 But the flesh of the bull, with its skin and its offal, you shall burn with fire outside the camp. It is a sin offering.
15 "You shall also take one ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram;
16 and you shall kill the ram, and you shall take its blood and sprinkle it all around on the altar.
17 Then you shall cut the ram in pieces, wash its entrails and its legs, and put them with its pieces and with its head.
18 And you shall burn the whole ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the Lord; it is a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the Lord.
19 "You shall also take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram.
20 Then you shall kill the ram, and take some of its blood and put it on the tip of the right ear of Aaron and on the tip of the right ear of his sons, on the thumb of their right hand and on the big toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood all around on the altar.

Having been asked many times why if I don't feel man holds the right to remove any part of the Torah, do I teach that sacrificial system has been removed? That is an easy answer, one that comes not from any idea of man, rather from the Word it's self.
Jer. 7:22-23, And Hos. 6:6 testify to this. There will be more to follow on this when we come the laws for sacrifice.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex. 29:21-46
21 And you shall take some of the blood that is on the altar, and some of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and on his garments, on his sons and on the garments of his sons with him; and he and his garments shall be hallowed, and his sons and his sons' garments with him.
22 Also you shall take the fat of the ram, the fat tail, the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, the two kidneys and the fat on them, the right thigh (for it is a ram of consecration),
23 one loaf of bread, one cake made with oil, and one wafer from the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the Lord;
24 and you shall put all these in the hands of Aaron and in the hands of his sons, and you shall wave them as a wave offering before the Lord.
25 You shall receive them back from their hands and burn them on the altar as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma before the Lord. It is an offering made by fire to the Lord.
26 Then you shall take the breast of the ram of Aaron's consecration and wave it as a wave offering before the Lord; and it shall be your portion.
27 And from the ram of the consecration you shall consecrate the breast of the wave offering which is waved, and the thigh of the heave offering which is raised, of that which is for Aaron and of that which is for his sons.
28 It shall be from the children of Israel for Aaron and his sons by a statute forever. For it is a heave offering; it shall be a heave offering from the children of Israel from the sacrifices of their peace offerings, that is, their heave offering to the Lord.
29 "And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons' after him, to be anointed in them and to be consecrated in them.
30 That son who becomes priest in his place shall put them on for seven days, when he enters the tabernacle of meeting to minister in the holy place.
31 "And you shall take the ram of the consecration and boil its flesh in the holy place.
32 Then Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting.
33 They shall eat those things with which the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them; but an outsider shall not eat them, because they are holy.
34 And if any of the flesh of the consecration offerings, or of the bread, remains until the morning, then you shall burn the remainder with fire. It shall not be eaten, because it is holy.
35 "Thus you shall do to Aaron and his sons, according to all that I have commanded you. Seven days you shall consecrate them.
36 And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement. You shall cleanse the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to sanctify it.
37 Seven days you shall make atonement for the altar and sanctify it. And the altar shall be most holy. Whatever touches the altar must be holy.
38 "Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs of the first year, day by day continually.
39 One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight.
40 With the one lamb shall be one-tenth of an ephah of flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of pressed oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine as a drink offering.
41 And the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; and you shall offer with it the grain offering and the drink offering, as in the morning, for a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the Lord.
42 This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the Lord, where I will meet you to speak with you.
43 And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory.
44 So I will consecrate the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. I will also consecrate both Aaron and his sons to minister to Me as priests.
45 I will dwell among the children of Israel and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who brought them up out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them. I am the Lord their God.

Although I don't comment on sacrifices, there is no reason to think that one can't learn from from them. Yet as they are a part of the past, and hold no spiritual meaning for us today, one should not over look this one fact. If not for that final scarifice, offered by HaShem's own son, we may well never know the truth of life.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex 30
1 "You shall make an altar to burn incense on; you shall make it of acacia wood.
2 A cubit shall be its length and a cubit its width--it shall be square--and two cubits shall be its height. Its horns shall be of one piece with it.
3 And you shall overlay its top, its sides all around, and its horns with pure gold; and you shall make for it a molding of gold all around.
4 Two gold rings you shall make for it, under the molding on both its sides. You shall place them on its two sides, and they will be holders for the poles with which to bear it.
5 You shall make the poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold.
6 And you shall put it before the veil that is before the ark of the Testimony, before the mercy seat that is over the Testimony, where I will meet with you.
7 Aaron shall burn on it sweet incense every morning; when he tends the lamps, he shall burn incense on it.
8 And when Aaron lights the lamps at twilight, he shall burn incense on it, a perpetual incense before the Lord throughout your generations.
9 You shall not offer strange incense on it, or a burnt offering, or a grain offering; nor shall you pour a drink offering on it.
10 And Aaron shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement; once a year he shall make atonement upon it throughout your generations. It is most holy to the Lord."
11 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
12 "When you take the census of the children of Israel for their number, then every man shall give a ransom for himself to the Lord, when you number them, that there may be no plague among them when you number them.
13 This is what everyone among those who are numbered shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (a shekel is twenty gerahs). The half-shekel shall be an offering to the Lord.
14 Everyone included among those who are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering to the Lord.
15 The rich shall not give more and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when you give an offering to the Lord, to make atonement for yourselves.

Though this passage has been used to say we must pay tithe, it holds no such meaning.

16 And you shall take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shall appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of meeting, that it may be a memorial for the children of Israel before the Lord, to make atonement for yourselves."
17 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
18 "You shall also make a laver of bronze, with its base also of bronze, for washing. You shall put it between the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. And you shall put water in it,
19 for Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet in water from it.
20 When they go into the tabernacle of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister, to burn an offering made by fire to the Lord, they shall wash with water, lest they die.
21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, lest they die. And it shall be a statute forever to them--to him and his descendants throughout their generations."
22 Moreover the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
23 "Also take for yourself quality spices--five hundred shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much sweet-smelling cinnamon (two hundred and fifty shekels), two hundred and fifty shekels of sweet-smelling cane,
24 five hundred shekels of cassia, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, and a hin of olive oil.
25 And you shall make from these a holy anointing oil, an ointment compounded according to the art of the perfumer. It shall be a holy anointing oil.
26 With it you shall anoint the tabernacle of meeting and the ark of the Testimony;
27 the table and all its utensils, the lampstand and its utensils, and the altar of incense;
28 the altar of burnt offering with all its utensils, and the laver and its base.
29 You shall consecrate them, that they may be most holy; whatever touches them must be holy.
30 And you shall anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister to Me as priests.
31 And you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'This shall be a holy anointing oil to Me throughout your generations.
32 It shall not be poured on man's flesh; nor shall you make any other like it, according to its composition. It is holy, and it shall be holy to you.
33 Whoever compounds any like it, or whoever puts any of it on an outsider, shall be cut off from his people.' "
34 And the Lord said to Moses: "Take sweet spices, stacte and onycha and galbanum, and pure frankincense with these sweet spices; there shall be equal amounts of each.
35 You shall make of these an incense, a compound according to the art of the perfumer, salted, pure, and holy.
36 And you shall beat some of it very fine, and put some of it before the Testimony in the tabernacle of meeting where I will meet with you. It shall be most holy to you.
37 But as for the incense which you shall make, you shall not make any for yourselves, according to its composition. It shall be to you holy for the Lord.
38 Whoever makes any like it, to smell it, he shall be cut off from his people."

Though I give little commentary on this, there is a lot to be found. However, as time seems to limited for me, I find best that I spend what time I do have with the matters at hand. My reason for opening this thread, has never been to say you must follow all 613 laws in the Torah, or to say that you must follow the 1065( if I have that number right) laws in the NT. It was and will remain a thread to show the true meaning of the laws, what laws have been removed, and what remains. Oddly I have found that this knowledge is lacking in most teachings of the day.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
333
83
sorry John I have not read every post and there has been too much info to absorb. But can it be stated in simple terms which laws have been abolished and which remain ?
I have always believed the 10 Commandments to be spiritual and eternal with all the teaching of JESUS to be observed now in the NT.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
sorry John I have not read every post and there has been too much info to absorb. But can it be stated in simple terms which laws have been abolished and which remain ?
I have always believed the 10 Commandments to be spiritual and eternal with all the teaching of JESUS to be observed now in the NT.
You would be right. There are more than just the 10 how ever. Sexual sin, and so on still hold. I slowed down on how often I post due to being asked to do so. You are not the only one that finds they need more time, nor are you the only one that wishes I would get to the point. LOL I do understand that, and am doing my best to work out a way to get all the misunderstood, incorrect, and lost teaching into this thread. Holding it to as little post as I can. Once Ex is done, there will some chapters in other books that will be left out. Others will be simply highlighted.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
333
83
You would be right. There are more than just the 10 how ever. Sexual sin, and so on still hold. I slowed down on how often I post due to being asked to do so. You are not the only one that finds they need more time, nor are you the only one that wishes I would get to the point. LOL I do understand that, and am doing my best to work out a way to get all the misunderstood, incorrect, and lost teaching into this thread. Holding it to as little post as I can. Once Ex is done, there will some chapters in other books that will be left out. Others will be simply highlighted.
Thank you John ! While focusing on the 10 Coms I also realise there are others still valid that clearly mention which sins, as sexual for instance....but I have also taken all these laws that remain to be already 'incorporated into the 10 Coms JESUS 'expanded on spiritually' and are therefore already covered, not ignored or left out.

There are certain acts/actions we KNOW NOT TO DO even if they are not 'explicitly/singly/separately
mentioned in the 10 Commandments. What is your take on that John ?
I believe that when we walk with Jesus 24/7 we learn by example what to do and what not to do ! No longer any need to keep TELLING/INSTRUCTING and COMMANDING us....for HIS Righteousness will become a New way of Life for us, rub off on us - if we are teachable ! only 'close intimate contact will achieve that.
This is what is missing in christianity as long as they follow a false christ who rejects the Father's Commandments.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Thank you John ! While focusing on the 10 Coms I also realise there are others still valid that clearly mention which sins, as sexual for instance....but I have also taken all these laws that remain to be already 'incorporated into the 10 Coms JESUS 'expanded on spiritually' and are therefore already covered, not ignored or left out.[/QUOYE]

This is true. In fact it is what the new covenant is, as told by Jer in 31:31.

There are certain acts/actions we KNOW NOT TO DO even if they are not 'explicitly/singly/separately
mentioned in the 10 Commandments. What is your take on that John ?
Though many of the Laws that are given as stand alone, may be covered in the 10. There are some that are not, like teeth, the use of and reason for all church funds, the action and temperament of TRUE followers, and so.
I believe that when we walk with Jesus 24/7 we learn by example what to do and what not to do ! No longer any need to keep TELLING/INSTRUCTING and COMMANDING us....for HIS Righteousness will become a New way of Life for us, rub off on us - if we are teachable ! only 'close intimate contact will achieve that.
This is what is missing in christianity as long as they follow a false christ who rejects the Father's Commandments.
Sadly there are more that follow the idea that law has been removed, yet still hold to many aspects of it. If they were to be 100% honest with them self and others, they would have to admit the Law is as valid today as the day it was given. If you pay attention to the way they place question before you or any one that follows the Law, and is willing to say so, they always turn to portions of it that are of consequences. Also when asked a straight foreword question about the parts that are, they will not answer. Why? to do so means they must admit they do follow the laws. Or at lest the parts of it they like. There in lies the reason for this thread. I may not hold all the answers to life, nor do I claim to. I do however understand that at times, teaching must be done. As I said at the on set of this thread, I am not going to tell anyone they have to follow the laws, I am simply doing me best to inform some that not all parts of the Law have been removed. In doing so, it is my hope that the Word, (Bible) will also show them how to work out in their own hearts what parts are valid and what are not.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
333
83
Thank you John ! While focusing on the 10 Coms I also realise there are others still valid that clearly mention which sins, as sexual for instance....but I have also taken all these laws that remain to be already 'incorporated into the 10 Coms JESUS 'expanded on spiritually' and are therefore already covered, not ignored or left out.[/QUOYE]

This is true. In fact it is what the new covenant is, as told by Jer in 31:31.



Though many of the Laws that are given as stand alone, may be covered in the 10. There are some that are not, like teeth, the use of and reason for all church funds, the action and temperament of TRUE followers, and so.

Sadly there are more that follow the idea that law has been removed, yet still hold to many aspects of it. If they were to be 100% honest with them self and others, they would have to admit the Law is as valid today as the day it was given. If you pay attention to the way they place question before you or any one that follows the Law, and is willing to say so, they always turn to portions of it that are of consequences. Also when asked a straight foreword question about the parts that are, they will not answer. Why? to do so means they must admit they do follow the laws. Or at lest the parts of it they like. There in lies the reason for this thread. I may not hold all the answers to life, nor do I claim to. I do however understand that at times, teaching must be done. As I said at the on set of this thread, I am not going to tell anyone they have to follow the laws, I am simply doing me best to inform some that not all parts of the Law have been removed. In doing so, it is my hope that the Word, (Bible) will also show them how to work out in their own hearts what parts are valid and what are not.
I would not hold out too much hope for their heart to tell them what is right or wrong....seeing without the Holy Spirit the human heart is wicked beyond belief....and will even lead them to hell !!! so convinced are they in their own understanding ! we see it on CC every day and going about silencing/beheading and executing Saints ! Oh yes, the human heart is as wicked as ever it was.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
Ex 18
1 And Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses' father-in-law, heard of all that God had done for Moses and for Israel His people--that the Lord had brought Israel out of Egypt.

There is some debate if Jethro was a pagan priest at this time. As we are not told straight out, one must their own way of thinking to find the answer for them self. Though many see what follows as alluding to him following HaShem.


2 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took Zipporah, Moses' wife, after he had sent her back,
3 with her two sons, of whom the name of one was Gershom (for he said, "I have been a stranger in a foreign land")
4 and the name of the other was Eliezer (for he said, "The God of my father was my help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh");
5 and Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, came with his sons and his wife to Moses in the wilderness, where he was encamped at the mountain of God.
6 Now he had said to Moses, "I, your father-in-law Jethro, am coming to you with your wife and her two sons with her."

It seems more likely that word was sent to Moses, before they got to the camp. A sign of respect, and show of peace. Much like knocking on a friends door rather that just walking in.


7 So Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, bowed down, and kissed him. And they asked each other about their well-being, and they went into the tent.

Going out to meet Jethro, was a sign of honor. For Aaron and maybe the whole of Israel went out to greet this man.


8 And Moses told his father-in-law all that the Lord had done to Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, all the hardship that had come upon them on the way, and how the Lord had delivered them.
9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the good which the Lord had done for Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.
10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be the Lord, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 Now I know that the Lord is greater than all the gods; for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them."

The sages tell us Moses was trying to bring Jethro closer to Torah by telling him of the things that had taken place. Even though we are told before hand Jethro knew of them, he most likely didn't know the details. Some point to this to say he was at that time turned toward Torah, and HaShem. As he proclaims that HaShem is greater than other gods. Keeping in mind that when we are first introduced to Jethro, it seemed clear that he was a leader of pagan worship. Yet it also seemed that he had been removed from this post for one reason or another. So it may also be that he had turned to HaShem some time before we meet him, and his exclamation here is nothing more than an acknowledgment of that faith. As he has now seen, and understood YHVH for what it truly meant.


12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to God. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before God.
13 And so it was, on the next day, that Moses sat to judge the people; and the people stood before Moses from morning until evening.
14 So when Moses' father-in-law saw all that he did for the people, he said, "What is this thing that you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit, and all the people stand before you from morning until evening?"
15 And Moses said to his father-in-law, "Because the people come to me to inquire of God.
16 When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws."
17 So Moses' father-in-law said to him, "The thing that you do is not good.
18 Both you and these people who are with you will surely wear yourselves out. For this thing is too much for you; you are not able to perform it by yourself.
19 Listen now to my voice; I will give you counsel, and God will be with you: Stand before God for the people, so that you may bring the difficulties to God.
20 And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do.
21 Moreover you shall select from all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them to be rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.
22 And let them judge the people at all times. Then it will be that every great matter they shall bring to you, but every small matter they themselves shall judge. So it will be easier for you, for they will bear the burden with you.
23 If you do this thing, and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all this people will also go to their place in peace."
24 So Moses heeded the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said.
25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people: rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.
26 So they judged the people at all times; the hard cases they brought to Moses, but they judged every small case themselves.
27 Then Moses let his father-in-law depart, and he went his way to his own land.

Though it was a direct command from HaShem Jethro gave sound advice in matters of court. So sound, most systems follow this pattern even today. It is even backed in the NT, as can be seen in Pauls letters. 1Cor 6, is just one that comes to mind. However we must also note that Jethro in his own way placed this matter in the hands of HaShem. with his statement, "If HaShem so commands you" In other words, let not my will be done in this matter, but HaShem's.

The sages tell us Moses was trying to bring Jethro closer to Torah by telling him of the things that had taken place. Even though we are told before hand Jethro knew of them, he most likely didn't know the details. Some point to this to say he was at that time turned toward Torah, and HaShem. As he proclaims that HaShem is greater than other gods. Keeping in mind that when we are first introduced to Jethro, it seemed clear that he was a leader of pagan worship. Yet it also seemed that he had been removed from this post for one reason or another. So it may also be that he had turned to HaShem some time before we meet him, and his exclamation here is nothing more than an acknowledgment of that faith. As he has now seen, and understood YHVH for what it truly meant.


Jethro is a Midianite.Midian was a son of Abraham by Keturah. Most of the tribe of Midian turned to idolatry. Jethro was a Kenite. I see no indication in Scripture that the Kenites ever turned to idolatry. They were more faithful than Israel, as a nation, to the God of Abraham. I believe that the Coptic Jews of Ethiopia (Cush) are the result of Jethro's witness.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
I would not hold out too much hope for their heart to tell them what is right or wrong....seeing without the Holy Spirit the human heart is wicked beyond belief....and will even lead them to hell !!! so convinced are they in their own understanding ! we see it on CC every day and going about silencing/beheading and executing Saints ! Oh yes, the human heart is as wicked as ever it was.
This brings to mind a question once debated in class. A student asked, "Why should was time on a people that will not hear the truth?"
Of all the answers given only one turned to the Word. They said, "If we will simply read Ezekiel 33:1-6 you will have your answer."
My rendering of that passage. If the watchmen sees danger coming, be it in the form of an army or by the wrong thinking or teachings of others. We are to sound the trumpet. In other words, we must let it be known. If we do, and they don't act to corcet, or defend their blood is on their hands. If we don't, then their blood is on the watchmen's hands.
I don't intend to have any one point at me and say, He never told me the truth.
As for the way people on here act, I am not going to say they are all the same. As I said before, if asked a direct question, it will never be answered in a direct way. That speaks more than what is said. So before we pass judgment, should we not first use understanding? After all, if we teach against acting in anyway that is contrary to the law, do we not teach that the law is valid? Yet if we turn around and say it is not, then are we guilty of lying, or can it be that we lack a true understanding of what the Word teaches? More often than not, it is the latter, this can changed.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex 31
1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
2 "See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah.
3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
4 to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze,
5 in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship.

Though it has been a teaching by some that being filled with the Spirit can only come after a person turns their life over to Yeshua, and is a part of the new covenent, this passage and many others show this to be wrong. Though as one teacher puts it, "One must be follower of the true Word, walking not in this world, rather walking in faith, truth, and obedience before the Spirit of HaShem can live with in them."

6 And I, indeed I, have appointed with him Aholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan; and I have put wisdom in the hearts of all who are gifted artisans, that they may make all that I have commanded you:
7 the tabernacle of meeting, the ark of the Testimony and the mercy seat that is on it, and all the furniture of the tabernacle--
8 the table and its utensils, the pure gold lampstand with all its utensils, the altar of incense,
9 the altar of burnt offering with all its utensils, and the laver and its base--
10 the garments of ministry, the holy garments for Aaron the priest and the garments of his sons, to minister as priests,
11 and the anointing oil and sweet incense for the holy place. According to all that I have commanded you they shall do."

Ever had something to do, and though you have never done it before, you simply understood how? A wise old man once told me that is how you know what HaShem has chosen you to do. This made no sence to me at first, until he placed this passage before me, and explained it in this manner. HaShem will never ask us to do a thing, and not give us the wisdom and understanding to complete his task.

12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

When Paul speaks of Sabbthas, it is understood by many that he is giving us freedom to just pick a day, and that any day is as good any other. Yet as we can see, HaShem uses the same plural use of the word here. So to think that everything has changed after the sacrifice Yeshua made on our behalf seems to hit a wall. We will cove this a bit closer when we come to the feast, for now however, keep in mind the sabbaths that come with the feast. They are not the 7th day Sabbath.
We should also understand that the keeping of HIS Sabbaths is a sigh between HaShem and his people.

14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

It should be noted here that we are given 2 things. The first, any one that profanes or violates the Sabbath will be put to death. Please note it doesn't say by mans hand.
Next we told that anyone doing any work, (i.e. profaning) on the Sabbath is to be cut off. One teaching is that the death spoken of here is not by mans hands, rather speaks to a spiritual death. Yet one other teaches that They are both one in the same. What line of thinking one wishes to follow is out of my hands. I would however say that if left in the hands of man, Yeshua would have been stoned the first time he healed anyone on the sabbath. He showed us by His own walk, that what we may call work is not always what HaShem seen as work. I will not go into a full teaching on Rabbinic law, yet it holds many things that were not intended in Biblical law.

15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "
18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Before we make any claim that this is ONLY for Israel, we would do well to keep in mind Rom. chapter 11. We are told there that once we turn to HaShem, and trust in Yeshua for salvation, we are grafted into the house of Israel. Paul didn't dream this up, he seen it in the story of Ruth.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex 32
1 Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, "Come, make us gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him."

The 2 teachings that come to mind are as follows. Though there does seem be some truth in both, they may also hold some wishful thinking on the part of the teacher. Though it is more likely, that like to day, many simply teach what they have been told with out question.
In the first, we are told that it was not the house of Israel demanding new gods. Rather it was the multitude of others that came out of Egypt with them. As it is that a Israelite would sooner give up his life than to turn their back on HaShem.
The other teaching. They were not asking for a god to replace HaShem, they simply wanted to replace Moses, who had not returned after the 40 days he had said. This was a misunderstanding on their part. As Moses said he would be gone 40 full days, they understood the the day he left was to be counted as the first day.

2 And Aaron said to them, "Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me."
3 So all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron.
4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf. Then they said, "This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!"
5 So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, "Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord."
6 Then they rose early on the next day, offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
7 And the Lord said to Moses, "Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves.
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, 'This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!' "
9 And the Lord said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people!
10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation."
11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: "Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?

Sorry can't help myself here. Once more this came from class. A rather intelligent study, (who loved to have fun) said, "This sounds like my mom and dad when I do something wrong. Nether wants to lay claim to me, so for a time I am see as one or the others not both." Oddly I am sure we have all been there at some point in our life. What we must understand is this. We are children of HaShem if we live in sin.

12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.' "
14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Just Abraham asked that Sodom be spared for the sake of 10, Moses here does kind of the same thing. Only Moses makes the claim that HaShem's power and glory may be diminished. It isn't that HaShem didn't understand this, as we all know He did.

15 And Moses turned and went down from the mountain, and the two tablets of the Testimony were in his hand. The tablets were written on both sides; on the one side and on the other they were written.
16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Though we may see things differently a lot of time, Here is one place that the Sages and I agree to some extent. They teach that to word given here as engraved can also be said as freedom. In this they find that a truly free person studies Torah, only true freedom comes from living as HaShem created us to live. Otherwise one is subject to his or her passions. The mores of society, the dominate, or fashionable cultures.

17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, "There is a noise of war in the camp."
18 But he said: "It is not the noise of the shout of victory, Nor the noise of the cry of defeat, But the sound of singing I hear."
19 So it was, as soon as he came near the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing. So Moses' anger became hot, and he cast the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain.
20 Then he took the calf which they had made, burned it in the fire, and ground it to powder; and he scattered it on the water and made the children of Israel drink it.
21 And Moses said to Aaron, "What did this people do to you that you have brought so great a sin upon them?"
22 So Aaron said, "Do not let the anger of my lord become hot. You know the people, that they are set on evil.
23 For they said to me, 'Make us gods that shall go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.'
24 And I said to them, 'Whoever has any gold, let them break it off.' So they gave it to me, and I cast it into the fire, and this calf came out."
25 Now when Moses saw that the people were unrestrained (for Aaron had not restrained them, to their shame among their enemies),
26 then Moses stood in the entrance of the camp, and said, "Whoever is on the Lord's side--come to me." And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together to him.
27 And he said to them, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel: 'Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.' "
28 So the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And about three thousand men of the people fell that day.

Levi has in some teachings been given a bad rape. This comes the actions of he and Simeon after Dinah was defiled. Yet that story now seems to hold a new meaning. Just Levi stood for what was right in his eyes then, we now find that dogged determination to act in righteousness here. A sound lesson in hearing the full story before one passes judgment.

29 Then Moses said, "Consecrate yourselves today to the Lord, that He may bestow on you a blessing this day, for every man has opposed his son and his brother."

This same promise may well be what Satan uses to lead some to hand over the follows of HaShem in the end times. Yeshua told us this will come in Mat. 10:21-23. Yet one other teacher tells us this a shadow of the day of judgment. He comes by this understanding after the last part of this chapter.

30 Now it came to pass on the next day that Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. So now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."
31 Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, "Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold!
32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin--but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written."
33 And the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
34 Now therefore, go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, My Angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin."
35 So the Lord plagued the people because of what they did with the calf which Aaron made.

The book of record spoken of here, may well be what is called the Lambs Book of Life. It is this thinking that leads the above teacher to say it is a shadow of the day of judgment.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex 33
1 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, 'To your descendants I will give it.'
2 And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.
3 Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people."

One teacher tells us that Israel was called stiff-necked due to their unwillingness to follow the Law as given by HaShem. This teacher points to Rabbinic law as a way of making the point that it has not changed much. Another has this to say.What we must always keep in mind is that Rabbinic law is more often than not confused with Biblical law by many western churches. It is for this reason that many wish to say the Law has been removed. Yet in their own way, they are also stiff-necked. Both due to their unwillingness to hear any teaching that doesn't line up with their own, and their unwillingness to truly look at Biblical teachings for them-selves.

4 And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments.
5 For the Lord had said to Moses, "Say to the children of Israel, 'You are a stiff-necked people. I could come up into your midst in one moment and consume you. Now therefore, take off your ornaments, that I may know what to do to you.' "
6 So the children of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by Mount Horeb.

2 things have come from this passage. first some churches that say there is no law, follow that no one should ware jewelry. The other is an old argument that is used to try to derail any teaching on the law. For that one lets looks at what the sages say. R'Bechya tells us that the ornaments were the garments that had the blood of the covenant on them, which signified their exalted status. Ranban tells us that the tablets represented freedom from death. Once the people understood they no longer deserved eternal life due to their sin, they removed their jewelry as a sign of their remorse.
One teacher that is a member of the Sanhedrin had this to say. This is just one many laws that were placed on the people that left Egypt, and doesn't apply to the following generations.

7 Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle of meeting. And it came to pass that everyone who sought the Lord went out to the tabernacle of meeting which was outside the camp.
8 So it was, whenever Moses went out to the tabernacle, that all the people rose, and each man stood at his tent door and watched Moses until he had gone into the tabernacle.

Some teach that this passage only speaks to Moses's tent once, all following passages speak of the Tabernacle of HaShem. However, as will see in time, that simply doesn't fit. You see the Tabernacle of HaShem, was placed in the center of the camp.

9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.
10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door.
11 So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.
12 Then Moses said to the Lord, "See, You say to me, 'Bring up this people.' But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, 'I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.'
13 Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people."

How many of us have asked the same thing of HaShem? If any haven't they should. To ask this of HaShem, then follow up with an open heart mind in study can lead to insights the like of which you will find hard to place into words. Kind of like the change that is made in a person when they visit Israel.

14 And He said, "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest."
15 Then he said to Him, "If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here.
16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth."
17 So the Lord said to Moses, "I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name."

It is clear to us all when we see a person if HaShem walks with them or not. There is just something about that person that isn't seen in others. They can change the atmosphere of a room just by walking into it. What any don't get from this passage, is that it speaks to all true followers. We are all HaShems people, He knows us all by name, and is willing to teach us, lead us, and walk with us in all things. Except sin. The poem Foot prints tells of this.

18 And he said, "Please, show me Your glory."
19 Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
21 And the Lord said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."

One teaching on this tells us that HaShem showed Moses His tefillin, this is how Moses know what to do when he was told to place the laws on his arm and forehead in Duet 6:8.
Yet one other tells us that Moses was granted only this once the chance to see HaShems back side, or the heal of His foot.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex. 34
1 And the Lord said to Moses, "Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.
2 So be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning to Mount Sinai, and present yourself to Me there on the top of the mountain.
3 And no man shall come up with you, and let no man be seen throughout all the mountain; let neither flocks nor herds feed before that mountain."

One teaching on this is that the first set of tablets had been tainted by the sins of Israel. On that I cry wolf, you see man can't taint the Word of HaShem. We do at misunderstand it, turn our backs on it, and even misuse it. This doesn't taint the Word, only our souls. This leads to the other teaching. This teacher, (though we have had many a debate still has my highest regrades) informs us that it only due to Moses' prayer, intervention, and faithfulness that the second set was given.

4 So he cut two tablets of stone like the first ones. Then Moses rose early in the morning and went up Mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him; and he took in his hand the two tablets of stone.
5 Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,
7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."

To some this is telling us that if our father sines we hold no hope. In what I have heard of this teaching, it seems to follow a line of thinking that is somewhat sad. You see they understand this to mean that the sines of our dads are counted as our sin.
On the flip side however, we have a fuller understanding. One that has looked at not just one part of a passage, rather the whole passage, as well as others. Here we find that the sins of our dad are placed before us, if we turn aside, and follow after HaShem, then it stops there. When one thinks on the full passage it becomes clear this is the best way to understand it. After all, HaShem does say here that He forgives, showing mercy, and that He doesn't clear the guilty. If we turn a side fom the sin, we are not guilty, even if our dad sinned in that manner. When Israel sinned by their loss of trusting faithfulness, only the generation that lost their trusting faithfulness were not aloud to enter the Land. The following generation did. Why? They turned away from that sinfulness and fully trusted HaShem.

8 So Moses made haste and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped.
9 Then he said, "If now I have found grace in Your sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray, go among us, even though we are a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your inheritance."
10 And He said: "Behold, I make a covenant. Before all your people I will do marvels such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation; and all the people among whom you are shall see the work of the Lord. For it is an awesome thing that I will do with you.
11 Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.
12 Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst.
13 But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images
14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),
15 lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their gods and make sacrifice to their gods, and one of them invites you and you eat of his sacrifice,
16 and you take of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters play the harlot with their gods and make your sons play the harlot with their gods.
17 You shall make no molded gods for yourselves.

18 "The Feast of Unleavened Bread you shall keep. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, in the appointed time of the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.
19 All that open the womb are Mine, and every male firstborn among your livestock, whether ox or sheep.
20 But the firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb. And if you will not redeem him, then you shall break his neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. And none shall appear before Me empty-handed.
21 "Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; in plowing time and in harvest you shall rest.
22 And you shall observe the Feast of Weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year's end.
23 Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the Lord God of Israel.
24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
25 "You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.
26 The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk."

HaShem opens this passage with Beware of I command you. This tells us that HaShem is emphasizing His Laws. Following this up with the warning of the dangers of idolatry, is mean to drive it home. He then repeats aspects of His Law are meant to help keep their minds and hearts on that law. More on that as we get to them.

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses' hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him.
30 So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.
31 Then Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him; and Moses talked with them.
32 Afterward all the children of Israel came near, and he gave them as commandments all that the Lord had spoken with him on Mount Sinai.
33 And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face.
34 But whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded.
35 And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.

Once more, no matter what we read in the Torah, we can be sure that it is not every word HaShem said to Moses. As we work through this, it will be made clear the things we are not told. Follow if you will, much of this can change how you see the whole of the Word, and at times, may lead you to rethink some of what we think we know. I know that with every study on Torah, something comes up that makes me rethink some of my own misunderstanding.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,041
113
77
This is the first time I have looked at this thread. I am sure you mean well but is copying out the Bible that most people own really necessary?
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
This is the first time I have looked at this thread. I am sure you mean well but is copying out the Bible that most people own really necessary?
I stooped posting the passages once, and was asked to please start again. I understand the reason for being asked, so I picked it back up. Necessary, not really, easier for some people that have been following this thread and the one other I do yes.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex 35
1 Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, "These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do:
2 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

This has been a matter of debate for some time. If one follows a strict adherence to Law, they may say you can not tune on a light on Sabbath, and that if one is on, then you can't turn it off. Or that you can't cook on the Sabbath, start your car, on do anything that may create something that was not there already.
On the other hand if one follows the more lenient form, Then on Sabbath one may use the stove, as you aren't "kindling a fire, merely opening a valve. As for the light, everything is already in place, you simply close the loop that bring light into the room. One should always follow their own heart on some matters. To give an example, If you are walking to church, (Keeping in mind the right number of steeps one can take under Rabbinic law. You come across a branch in the path, do you move it or not? Most people would say yes, no need to lever it for others to trip over in the dark. Yet by some standers of the Law, you can't lift it, that would carrying a burden, you can't drag it, you may mark the earth also know as plowing, and so on. Yet if a person was to do what right, they would move it. So here you are looking at this hazard, what do you do?

4 And Moses spoke to all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, "This is the thing which the Lord commanded, saying:
5 'Take from among you an offering to the Lord. Whoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it as an offering to the Lord: gold, silver, and bronze;
6 blue, purple, and scarlet thread, fine linen, and goats' hair;
7 ram skins dyed red, badger skins, and acacia wood;
8 oil for the light, and spices for the anointing oil and for the sweet incense;
9 onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod and in the breastplate.
10 'All who are gifted artisans among you shall come and make all that the Lord has commanded:
11 the tabernacle, its tent, its covering, its clasps, its boards, its bars, its pillars, and its sockets;
12 the ark and its poles, with the mercy seat, and the veil of the covering;
13 the table and its poles, all its utensils, and the showbread;
14 also the lampstand for the light, its utensils, its lamps, and the oil for the light;
15 the incense altar, its poles, the anointing oil, the sweet incense, and the screen for the door at the entrance of the tabernacle;
16 the altar of burnt offering with its bronze grating, its poles, all its utensils, and the laver and its base;
17 the hangings of the court, its pillars, their sockets, and the screen for the gate of the court;
18 the pegs of the tabernacle, the pegs of the court, and their cords;
19 the garments of ministry, for ministering in the holy place--the holy garments for Aaron the priest and the garments of his sons, to minister as priests.' "

This is just one of many things that seem to make the idea of any part of chapter 23 speaking of The Tabernacle of HaShem seem a bit off. Nothing has even been taken up to do any of the work at that point. Yet we must kep in mind, that not everything in the Torah is in chronological order. So we will need more than something makes a thing SEEM out of place, as you will see later there is more.

20 And all the congregation of the children of Israel departed from the presence of Moses.
21 Then everyone came whose heart was stirred, and everyone whose spirit was willing, and they brought the Lord's offering for the work of the tabernacle of meeting, for all its service, and for the holy garments.
22 They came, both men and women, as many as had a willing heart, and brought earrings and nose rings, rings and necklaces, all jewelry of gold, that is, every man who made an offering of gold to the Lord.
23 And every man, with whom was found blue, purple, and scarlet thread, fine linen, and goats' hair, red skins of rams, and badger skins, brought them.
24 Everyone who offered an offering of silver or bronze brought the Lord's offering. And everyone with whom was found acacia wood for any work of the service, brought it.
25 All the women who were gifted artisans spun yarn with their hands, and brought what they had spun, of blue, purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
26 And all the women whose heart stirred with wisdom spun yarn of goats' hair.
27 The rulers brought onyx stones, and the stones to be set in the ephod and in the breastplate,
28 and spices and oil for the light, for the anointing oil, and for the sweet incense.
29 The children of Israel brought a freewill offering to the Lord, all the men and women whose hearts were willing to bring material for all kinds of work which the Lord, by the hand of Moses, had commanded to be done.

Though you will not find any teaching in thread that tells us we must give any form of animal sacrifice, (reason for that will be made clear when we come to it.) There some of the offerings that are asked for in the Torah that we today follow. This is one of them. As was told by one teacher, any form of giving that comes from the heart falls under this order by HaShem. From giving to add the church, to giving to feed the hungry. In fact, when you send your unneeded close or what not to the salvation army, that is a free will offering. Others say it can oly be a free will offering if it goes to the church.

30 And Moses said to the children of Israel, "See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship,
32 to design artistic works, to work in gold and silver and bronze,
33 in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of artistic workmanship.
34 And He has put in his heart the ability to teach, in him and Aholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan.
35 He has filled them with skill to do all manner of work of the engraver and the designer and the tapestry maker, in blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine linen, and of the weaver--those who do every work and those who design artistic works.

As was noted before, at times HaShem loans us the ability to do things we had no idea we know how to. Yet when it comes down to it, and there is real need for that to get done, you steep up. HaShem then uses your act of faithfulness to get things done.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,533
87
48
Ex 36
1 "And Bezalel and Aholiab, and every gifted artisan in whom the Lord has put wisdom and understanding, to know how to do all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary, shall do according to all that the Lord has commanded."
2 Then Moses called Bezalel and Aholiab, and every gifted artisan in whose heart the Lord had put wisdom, everyone whose heart was stirred, to come and do the work.
3 And they received from Moses all the offering which the children of Israel had brought for the work of the service of making the sanctuary. So they continued bringing to him freewill offerings every morning.
4 Then all the craftsmen who were doing all the work of the sanctuary came, each from the work he was doing,
5 and they spoke to Moses, saying, "The people bring much more than enough for the service of the work which the Lord commanded us to do."
6 So Moses gave a commandment, and they caused it to be proclaimed throughout the camp, saying, "Let neither man nor woman do any more work for the offering of the sanctuary." And the people were restrained from bringing,
7 for the material they had was sufficient for all the work to be done--indeed too much.

I know of one teaching that makes the sad mistake of using this passage to say that Israel was trying to buy their way out of trouble. Thinking that if they gave what was asked for, that some how change HaShem's mind, and He would over look any sin of the past, becoming more lenient from future sin.
The bet teaching ever on this however, comes from a Baptist teacher. He uses this to make a valid point. Israel gave so freely that there was to much on hand, showing their love, and trusting faithfulness. Today, when the church has a need, they struggle to find the funds they need, just meet that need. This shows a striking contrast in the faithfulness of who showed it by giving then, and the weakened faith of today.

8 Then all the gifted artisans among them who worked on the tabernacle made ten curtains woven of fine linen, and of blue, purple, and scarlet thread; with artistic designs of cherubim they made them.
9 The length of each curtain was twenty-eight cubits, and the width of each curtain four cubits; the curtains were all the same size.
10 And he coupled five curtains to one another, and the other five curtains he coupled to one another.
11 He made loops of blue yarn on the edge of the curtain on the selvedge of one set; likewise he did on the outer edge of the other curtain of the second set.
12 Fifty loops he made on one curtain, and fifty loops he made on the edge of the curtain on the end of the second set; the loops held one curtain to another.
13 And he made fifty clasps of gold, and coupled the curtains to one another with the clasps, that it might be one tabernacle.
14 He made curtains of goats' hair for the tent over the tabernacle; he made eleven curtains.
15 The length of each curtain was thirty cubits, and the width of each curtain four cubits; the eleven curtains were the same size.
16 He coupled five curtains by themselves and six curtains by themselves.
17 And he made fifty loops on the edge of the curtain that is outermost in one set, and fifty loops he made on the edge of the curtain of the second set.
18 He also made fifty bronze clasps to couple the tent together, that it might be one.
19 Then he made a covering for the tent of ram skins dyed red, and a covering of badger skins above that.
20 For the tabernacle he made boards of acacia wood, standing upright.
21 The length of each board was ten cubits, and the width of each board a cubit and a half.
22 Each board had two tenons for binding one to another. Thus he made for all the boards of the tabernacle.
23 And he made boards for the tabernacle, twenty boards for the south side.
24 Forty sockets of silver he made to go under the twenty boards: two sockets under each of the boards for its two tenons.
25 And for the other side of the tabernacle, the north side, he made twenty boards
26 and their forty sockets of silver: two sockets under each of the boards.
27 For the west side of the tabernacle he made six boards.
28 He also made two boards for the two back corners of the tabernacle.
29 And they were coupled at the bottom and coupled together at the top by one ring. Thus he made both of them for the two corners.
30 So there were eight boards and their sockets--sixteen sockets of silver--two sockets under each of the boards.
31 And he made bars of acacia wood: five for the boards on one side of the tabernacle,
32 five bars for the boards on the other side of the tabernacle, and five bars for the boards of the tabernacle on the far side westward.
33 And he made the middle bar to pass through the boards from one end to the other.
34 He overlaid the boards with gold, made their rings of gold to be holders for the bars, and overlaid the bars with gold.
35 And he made a veil of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen; it was worked with an artistic design of cherubim.
36 He made for it four pillars of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold, with their hooks of gold; and he cast four sockets of silver for them.
37 He also made a screen for the tabernacle door, of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, made by a weaver,
38 and its five pillars with their hooks. And he overlaid their capitals and their rings with gold, but their five sockets were bronze.