A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[VCO]

I am quite sure it is what I think. I sign of unbelief ,not a "sign gift" no such thing. We walk by faith (the unseen) Those who seek after signs in order to confirm something outwardly as Christ said; that they may be seen of men., They have they have their reward of glorying in the flesh.

But a sign as curse against the whole world using the Jew to represent unbelief in the heart of man.

God mocking those who mock him with their oral traditions of men that do make His word without effect. Like this oral tradition of men who seek after signs that they have named tongues. (not the tongue the Bible speaks of, But do they not look to the foundation of the doctrine..

For with stammering lips (God mocking unbelief in the heart of men) and another tongue (a new manner of prophecy in other languages other than Hebrew) will he speak to this people.( mocking unbelievers) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they. ( mocking unbelievers) would not hear.Isaiah 28

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 King James Version (KJV) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

THIS PEOPLE, is referring to JEWS that were yet unbelieving, that ridiculed by mocking the DISCIPLES, saying they were Drunk.


Acts 2:13 (ASV)
13 But others mocking said, They are filled with new wine.


You do know that the first thing you learned in Judaism, was the mighty works of GOD. HE SPOKE TO THEM, and the mocking was in WHAT HE SAID, which was the VERY FIRST LESSON that they had been taught as a Child.

“Torah Talk”: Teaching Parashat Ha-shavua to Young Children
. . .
We take stories in the Torah and make them come alive as I guide children through a process of connecting to biblical text as they begin to see themselves as part of the Jewish people’s textual tradition.
. . .
My students’ comments and questions during Torah study reinforce my belief that young children are capable of thinking about big ideas, and give me insight into their spiritual development and into how they think about God and the Jewish people.
. . .
https://www.brandeis.edu/mandel/pdfs/TurnIt/TurnIt_CH13.pdf

Acts 2:8-11 (ASV)
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia,
10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God.

Acts 2:16 (ASV)
16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:


As a result, 3000 were SAVED that DAY. Now that is the REAL GIFT OF TONGUES. Now you should recognize why I cannot believe in the Modern Day tongues. It is a Counterfeit like the ex-Pagans, in the Corinthian Church, that they had learned to speak in tongues in the Worship of Apollo and the other Greek gods; and is NOTHING LIKE the True Tongues that we see in Acts 2:11.

 

[VCO]

these were believing jews not unbelieving jews. dino's point still stands

GUESS AGAIN. The Jews that went with PETER, did not have his Vision. What did JEW believe about entering the House of a Gentile?

The believed that it would DEFILE THEM. Therefore since the Jews that went with Peter, would have stood at the doorway, still unbelieving that GOD could save the GENTILES in that house the same way HE did them. Until they SAW they saw in the EXACT SAME MANOR AS THEY HAD EXPERIENCED, they would have remained Unbelieving that GOD could SAVE Gentiles, considering them EQUAL.
THEREFORE the UNBELIEVERS, were actually Believers, that had not crossed the BARRIER that is was defiling to enter a Gentile's House.

THAT means THE MIGHTY WIND had to BE THERE.

THAT means the TONGUES OF FIRE had to BE THERE.

THAT means the THEY HAD TO SPEAK IN THERE NATURE TONGUE, PROCLAIMING THE MIGHTY WORKS OF GOD.

So what a celebration that must have been, when they were convinced that GOD saved the Gentiles in the SAME MANOR as HE did them.


I got a suggestion, LOSE YOUR PRESUPPOSITIONS, then Really READ the BIBLE.

 

[Dino246]

Not at all since you conveniently ignore that there were indeed unbelieving Jews present in Acts 10. They contended with Peter in Acts 11. I'm certain that you understand the continuation of the narrative from Acts 10 to Acts 11.

Acts 11:1-3 1 The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3 and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

Verse 1 clearly indicates the passage of time, and verse 2 clearly states a change of location. There is absolutely nothing in Acts 10 to support the idea that there were any unbelieving Jews with Peter when Cornelius was saved.

 

[Dino246]

GUESS AGAIN. The Jews that went with PETER, did not have his Vision. What did JEW believe about entering the House of a Gentile?

The believed that it would DEFILE THEM. Therefore since the Jews that went with Peter, would have stood at the doorway, still unbelieving that GOD could save the GENTILES in that house the same way HE did them. Until they SAW they saw in the EXACT SAME MANOR AS THEY HAD EXPERIENCED, they would have remained Unbelieving that GOD could SAVE Gentiles, considering them EQUAL.
THEREFORE the UNBELIEVERS, were actually Believers, that had not crossed the BARRIER that is was defiling to enter a Gentile's House.

THAT means THE MIGHTY WIND had to BE THERE.

THAT means the TONGUES OF FIRE had to BE THERE.

THAT means the THEY HAD TO SPEAK IN THERE NATURE TONGUE, PROCLAIMING THE MIGHTY WORKS OF GOD.

So what a celebration that must have been, when they were convinced that GOD saved the Gentiles in the SAME MANOR as HE did them.


I got a suggestion, LOSE YOUR PRESUPPOSITIONS, then Really READ the BIBLE.

Classic eisegesis. Classic hypocrisy.

 

[notuptome]

Acts 11:1-3 1 The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3 and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

Verse 1 clearly indicates the passage of time, and verse 2 clearly states a change of location. There is absolutely nothing in Acts 10 to support the idea that there were any unbelieving Jews with Peter when Cornelius was saved.

They were not described as circumcised believers. That was added in your translation.

Acts 15:5 is another passage of interest in this discussion. The legalists have been busy in the church from the beginning.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Classic eisegesis. Classic hypocrisy.

Mirror time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

They were not described as circumcised believers. That was added in your translation.

Please try to follow the train of thought. My point was the change in both time and location from Acts 10 to Acts 11, not the statement about whether the believers in Jerusalem were circumcised.

 

[VCO]

Classic eisegesis. Classic hypocrisy.

I told you the ABSOLUTE TRUTH !

Classic Misinterpretation, Classic Non-Understanding of Jewish Traditions !

The Examples of Cornelius and his household, HAD TO BE IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY, or the Jews would have considered the evidence, the Gentiles were not equal to the JEWS.

Acts 10:9-36 (NJB)
9 Next day, while they were still on their journey and had only a short distance to go before reaching the town, Peter went to the housetop at about the sixth hour to say his prayers.
10 He felt hungry and was looking forward to his meal, but before it was ready he fell into a trance
11 and saw heaven thrown open and something like a big sheet being let down to earth by its four corners;
12 it contained every kind of animal, reptile and bird.
13 A voice then said to him, ‘Now, Peter, kill and eat!'
14 But Peter answered, ‘Certainly not, Lord; I have never yet eaten anything profane or unclean.'
15 Again, a second time, the voice spoke to him, ‘What God has made clean, you have no right to call profane.'
16 This was repeated three times, and then suddenly the container was drawn up to heaven again.
17 Peter was still at a loss over the meaning of the vision he had seen, when the men sent by Cornelius arrived. They had asked where Simon's house was and they were now standing at the door,
18 calling out to know if the Simon known as Peter was lodging there.
19 While Peter's mind was still on the vision, the Spirit told him, ‘Look! Some men have come to see you.
20 Hurry down, and do not hesitate to return with them; it was I who told them to come.'
21 Peter went down and said to them, ‘I am the man you are looking for; why have you come?'
22 They said, ‘The centurion Cornelius, who is an upright and God-fearing man, highly regarded by the entire Jewish people, was told by God through a holy angel to send for you and bring you to his house and to listen to what you have to say.'
23 So Peter asked them in and gave them lodging. Next day, he was ready to go off with them, accompanied by some of the brothers from Jaffa.
24 They reached Caesarea the following day, and Cornelius was waiting for them. He had asked his relations and close friends to be there,
25 and as Peter reached the house Cornelius went out to meet him, fell at his feet and did him reverence.
26 But Peter helped him up. ‘Stand up,' he said, ‘ after all, I am only a man!'
27 Talking together they went in to meet all the people assembled there,
but God has made it clear to me that I must not call anyone profane or unclean.
28 and Peter said to them, ‘You know it is forbidden for Jews to mix with people of another race and visit them;
but God has made it clear to me that I must not call anyone profane or unclean.
29 That is why I made no objection to coming when I was sent for; but I should like to know exactly why you sent for me.'
30 Cornelius replied, ‘At this time three days ago I was in my house saying the prayers for the ninth hour, when I suddenly saw a man in front of me in shining robes.
31 He said, “Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your charitable gifts have not been forgotten by God;
32 so now you must send to Jaffa and fetch Simon known as Peter who is lodging in the house of Simon the tanner, by the sea.”
33 So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Here we all are, assembled in front of you to hear all the instructions God has given you.'
34 Then Peter addressed them, ‘I now really understand', he said, ‘that God has no favourites,
35 but that anybody of any nationality who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
36 ‘God sent his word to the people of Israel, and it was to them that the good news of peace was brought by Jesus Christ—he is the Lord of all.



Acts 10:45-48 (NJB)
45 Jewish believers who had accompanied Peter were all astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit should be poured out on gentiles too,
46 since they could hear them speaking strange languages and proclaiming the greatness of God. Peter himself then said,
47 ‘Could anyone refuse the water of baptism to these people, now they have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?'
48 He then gave orders for them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterwards they begged him to stay on for some days.

 

[notuptome]

Please try to follow the train of thought. My point was the change in both time and location from Acts 10 to Acts 11, not the statement about whether the believers in Jerusalem were circumcised.

Those of the circumcision refers to those who were in Judahism. Some were converted but many had yet to come to Christ.

Acts 11 is a continuation of the narrative after certain days according to verse 48 of Acts 10.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

I told you the ABSOLUTE TRUTH !

No, you told your interpretation. See below.

Those of the circumcision refers to those who were in Judahism. Some were converted but many had yet to come to Christ.

Acts 11 is a continuation of the narrative after certain days according to verse 48 of Acts 10.

There is no evidence in Acts 10 that any of the people with Peter were unconverted Jews.

23: The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the believers from Joppa went along.
24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends.

27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile...

So, Cornelius had with him a number of Gentiles, as unconverted Jews would not have been in his house.

So far, there are no unconverted Jews. The following few verses record Peter's brief message.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

The circumcised believers... still no unconverted Jews present.

48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Peter was there for a few days BEFORE the narrative of Acts 11 begins. Then, in chapter 11...

1The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.

Some more time had to have passed for this news to get around. This was long before the Pony Express.

2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him....

Peter is no longer in Caesarea. There has been both a change of location and the passage of time. Although the narrative is continuous, the context has changed, so it is irrelevant who was in Jerusalem. The Holy Spirit empowered Cornelius and his companions in the absence of unconverted Jews.

The argument that tongues is only ever manifested in the presence of unconverted Jews is therefore baseless.

The argument that tongues were God's proof to the Jews that Gentiles could be saved as well is irrelevant because it doesn't confirm anything from Isaiah 28.

Therefore Isaiah 28 cannot be used as evidence against the modern expression of speaking in tongues.

 

[Waggles]

But you still will not convince Roger and others …
unless Jesus opens their hearts to receive the true gospel they are like those with a veil over their eyes.

 

[notuptome]

Therefore Isaiah 28 cannot be used as evidence against the modern expression of speaking in tongues.

Isaiah 28 is the scripture referenced by Paul in 1 Cor 14:21. It defines a purpose for God speaking to Israel. It places tongues as a mechanism that God has used to warn Israel of judgment through captivity. In the NT Israel cried to let His blood be upon us and our children. One can only wonder what the Holy Spirit was teaching to these Jews when they saw Gentiles speaking in tongues at the movement of the Holy Spirit.

Is one edified through the warning of judgment? Would the example of Nimrod and the tower of Babel not be a consideration to Jewish people? Surely Gentiles could be excused for not knowing these examples of Jewish history.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[VCO]

But you still will not convince Roger and others …
unless Jesus opens their hearts to receive the true gospel they are like those with a veil over their eyes.

WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER THE TRUE GOSPEL ? ? ?

This should be interesting.

 

[notuptome]

But you still will not convince Roger and others …
unless Jesus opens their hearts to receive the true gospel they are like those with a veil over their eyes.

I for one will always follow the word of God. The Holy Spirit only ministers through the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Isaiah 28 is the scripture referenced by Paul in 1 Cor 14:21. It defines a purpose for God speaking to Israel. It places tongues as a mechanism that God has used to warn Israel of judgment through captivity. In the NT Israel cried to let His blood be upon us and our children. One can only wonder what the Holy Spirit was teaching to these Jews when they saw Gentiles speaking in tongues at the movement of the Holy Spirit.

Is one edified through the warning of judgment? Would the example of Nimrod and the tower of Babel not be a consideration to Jewish people? Surely Gentiles could be excused for not knowing these examples of Jewish history.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Thanks, Well said.

One thing I would ask is, lately I have been thinking of how the word Jew is used .I would say a purpose for God speaking to Israel as those who do have the born again Spirit of Christ. The sign is simply against unbelief, no faith, a forward generation of people and not one nation against another as flesh a against flesh .It is not a Jewish religion or book of Jews . The author is nether Jewish nor Gentile.

But is a sign to the whole world. God has spoken.

 

[VCO]

I for one will always follow the word of God. The Holy Spirit only ministers through the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You too ROGER, what is the TRUE GOSPEL ? ? ?

THIS SHOULD HELP:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

 

[notuptome]

You too ROGER, what is the TRUE GOSPEL ? ? ?

THIS SHOULD HELP:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 Cor 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Gospel is the good news. Good news according to the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[VCO]

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 Cor 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Gospel is the good news. Good news according to the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Those are verses ABOUT the Gospel, not your Explanation OF WHAT THE GOSPEL IS. Try again.

For example: DEFINE WHAT THE GOOD NEWS ACTUALLY IS. HOW YOUR ARE SAVED and WHEN YOU ARE SAVED. ETC.

 

[notuptome]

Those are verses ABOUT the Gospel, not your Explanation OF WHAT THE GOSPEL IS. Try again.

For example: DEFINE WHAT THE GOOD NEWS ACTUALLY IS. HOW YOUR ARE SAVED and WHEN YOU ARE SAVED. ETC.

Gods word revealed to me that I was a sinner. Gods word revealed to me that the wages of sin is death. Gods word revealed to me that Jesus died to pay my sin debt for me. Jesus paid a debt I could never pay myself. The gift of God being eternal life through Jesus. By grace I am saved and by no merit of my own. I was saved the moment I asked Christ to save me and forgive me of my sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[VCO]

Gods word revealed to me that I was a sinner. Gods word revealed to me that the wages of sin is death. Gods word revealed to me that Jesus died to pay my sin debt for me. Jesus paid a debt I could never pay myself. The gift of God being eternal life through Jesus. By grace I am saved and by no merit of my own. I was saved the moment I asked Christ to save me and forgive me of my sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

AMEN ! You would not believe how many people believe, this false teaching. "You are not saved until you learn to speak in tongues."

Now the question about when were you saved? Actually has two answers:

1. WHEN HE FIRST GAVE IT.

2. When you actually received the GIFT.


2 Timothy 1:9 (CSBBible)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Now there is a VERSE that can blow a lot of false doctrine clean out of the water.

HERE ARE SOME OF THE FALSE TEACHINGS THAT CAN BE EXPOSED BY THAT ONE VERSE:

A. Works are part of our Salvation, False Doctrine.
B. Tongues are part of our Salvation, False Doctrine.
C. The TRUTH, CHRIST JESUS knew at the beginning of TIME all the decisions that we would be making.
D. The False Doctrine of: Christ is the Offspring of GOD.
E. The False Doctrine of: Christ did not exist before He was born.
F. The False Doctrine of: There is no such thing as Predestination.

And Probably some that I did not think of. I have to wander WHY is that Verse not taught as a cornerstone of our FAITH.
I think we should all keep it handy, in these trying times, we will find LOTS of use to correct False Doctrine.

On the 2nd statement where WE ACTUALLY RECEIVED JESUS CHRIST AS OUR LORD, these verses, among others, come up:

John 1:12-13 (HCSB)
12 But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God. [<-- born again]


RECEIVED HIM AS WHAT?


Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him,