Excellent "study" and questions about More water Confusion, and,
I thought I had Already Been Exposed to all of it
I thought I had Already Been Exposed to all of it
A Closer Look at Ephesians 1:13
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If you read the entire post you would realize they are different accounts within chapter 19. The experiences pertain to entirely different people who were exposed to Paul's message during his 2+ years stay.
S
anyone saying water actually cleanses from sin is believing in baptismal regeneration
Water baptism is for those who are already believers in Christ. We are baptized AFTER salvation and not FOR salvation. We can also state we are baptized in water BECAUSE we are saved and are following the ordinance of water baptism
When John baptized he did not baptize so people would receive repentance...they were baptized because they repented
to state otherwise, is to confuse the entire teaching of scripture and sadly, confuse those who seek to understand why a believer is or should water baptized
Water baptism is for those who are already believers in Christ. We are baptized AFTER salvation and not FOR salvation. We can also state we are baptized in water BECAUSE we are saved and are following the ordinance of water baptism
When John baptized he did not baptize so people would receive repentance...they were baptized because they repented
to state otherwise, is to confuse the entire teaching of scripture and sadly, confuse those who seek to understand why a believer is or should water baptized
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And that is ok that you don't agree. I am just sharing what I see as are you.
I do not claim to understand why God requires what He does at times. I think anyone who professes to understand everything is a liar. All I know is that the bible specifically commands everyone to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin. I believe the command must be obeyed for that reason. There is no gray area for me personally. I saw it and did it because I believed it was true. I had received the Holy Ghost years prior but after being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus the change in me was profound. Praise God. We all have our personal testimonies and that's mine.
Please know I am not trying to force anyone to agree with me. As I told you before, our job is to plant and water seeds. It is God who opens the eyes of understanding.
I do not claim to understand why God requires what He does at times. I think anyone who professes to understand everything is a liar. All I know is that the bible specifically commands everyone to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin. I believe the command must be obeyed for that reason. There is no gray area for me personally. I saw it and did it because I believed it was true. I had received the Holy Ghost years prior but after being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus the change in me was profound. Praise God. We all have our personal testimonies and that's mine.
Please know I am not trying to force anyone to agree with me. As I told you before, our job is to plant and water seeds. It is God who opens the eyes of understanding.
Upon reading this a scripture came to mind:
James 2:22-24
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:22-24
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
S
let's look at that in context
first of all, James is speaking of what actual salvation is, meaning there will be a change in your life if Christ is now yours by faith and you are sealed by the Holy Spirit....and we know back then, folks also were open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and there was no argument about that, unlike to day
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2
nowhere is James saying that works save. he is actually saying that the saved person will exhibit works
he states his faith was made complete by what he did. notice his faith was accounted to him as righteousness....not his works
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
first of all, James is speaking of what actual salvation is, meaning there will be a change in your life if Christ is now yours by faith and you are sealed by the Holy Spirit....and we know back then, folks also were open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and there was no argument about that, unlike to day
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2
nowhere is James saying that works save. he is actually saying that the saved person will exhibit works
he states his faith was made complete by what he did. notice his faith was accounted to him as righteousness....not his works
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
S
you know, some posts back, a couple of days ago, I wrote about how I was saved at 5, water baptized as a young teenager and finally baptized in the Holy Spirit at the age of 18
I agree we should be water baptized but not as a part of salvation but rather as a testimony of our salvation and in obedience to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. I have absolutely no doubts that I have been saved since the age of 5 and the sequence of events in my life in obedience to the gospel unfolded as they should and as the Holy Spirit led.
Interesting to read you were water baptized after being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
I believe God is faithful in how He deals with us personally.
Not sure why you seem to believe you are 'planting' a truth any different from what believers here attest to other than saying you think water baptism is a work or that it is a part of salvation. Even in your case, things did not all happen at the same time, so I'm not sure what exactly you are 'planting' as you put it
I agree we should be water baptized but not as a part of salvation but rather as a testimony of our salvation and in obedience to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. I have absolutely no doubts that I have been saved since the age of 5 and the sequence of events in my life in obedience to the gospel unfolded as they should and as the Holy Spirit led.
Interesting to read you were water baptized after being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
I believe God is faithful in how He deals with us personally.
Not sure why you seem to believe you are 'planting' a truth any different from what believers here attest to other than saying you think water baptism is a work or that it is a part of salvation. Even in your case, things did not all happen at the same time, so I'm not sure what exactly you are 'planting' as you put it
It is easy to confuse water baptism and Spirit baptism. Remember what John the baptizer said about himself and Jesus:
Mark 1:8 - I have baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
So, both Acts 22:16 and Mark 16:16 are referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. To be baptized with the Holy Spirit refers to the sealing ministry of the Spirit. He marks the believer as God's possession. Eph 1:13,14
In this verse, Jesus was referring to His own baptism in which the dove landed on Him and the Father said, "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased".
To summarize, water baptisms are all ceremonial and symbolic. They symbolize an identification with something or someone.
For example, in 1 Cor 10:1,2 Paul wrote:
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
Here, there was no water baptism "into Moses". They were identified with him by being led by him. As to being baptized "in the sea", think about it; they walked through "dry shod".
Ex 14:21 - Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the LORD drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
Psa 66:6 - He turned the sea into dry land; they passed through the river on foot. There did we rejoice in him,
So, Paul describes the Jews as being "baptized in the sea" when they were NOT wet. It was the Egyptian army that received full immersion "in the sea" and were all drowned.
So Paul used 'baptism' in 1 Cor 10 as an identification. Not at a ritual or ceremony.
When a person believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is the baptism of the Spirit. And this literally identifies the person as one of God's own possession. Eph 1:14
Water baptism is the ritual or ceremony that symbolizes the literal identification.
Only a saved person should be water baptized. There is no spiritual benefit to an unsaved person to immerse them in water.
Water baptism is the ritual that identifies the person as a believer, a Christian, a child of God.
Mark 1:8 - I have baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
So, both Acts 22:16 and Mark 16:16 are referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. To be baptized with the Holy Spirit refers to the sealing ministry of the Spirit. He marks the believer as God's possession. Eph 1:13,14
In this verse, Jesus was referring to His own baptism in which the dove landed on Him and the Father said, "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased".
To summarize, water baptisms are all ceremonial and symbolic. They symbolize an identification with something or someone.
For example, in 1 Cor 10:1,2 Paul wrote:
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
Here, there was no water baptism "into Moses". They were identified with him by being led by him. As to being baptized "in the sea", think about it; they walked through "dry shod".
Ex 14:21 - Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the LORD drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
Psa 66:6 - He turned the sea into dry land; they passed through the river on foot. There did we rejoice in him,
So, Paul describes the Jews as being "baptized in the sea" when they were NOT wet. It was the Egyptian army that received full immersion "in the sea" and were all drowned.
So Paul used 'baptism' in 1 Cor 10 as an identification. Not at a ritual or ceremony.
When a person believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is the baptism of the Spirit. And this literally identifies the person as one of God's own possession. Eph 1:14
Water baptism is the ritual or ceremony that symbolizes the literal identification.
Only a saved person should be water baptized. There is no spiritual benefit to an unsaved person to immerse them in water.
Water baptism is the ritual that identifies the person as a believer, a Christian, a child of God.
Yes, Paul taught at the school of Tyrannus for 2 years and vs 10 tells us all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. Paul was bold in his preaching and teaching.
After we read that people were healed of diseases and devil spirit possession (vs 12), then the seven sons of Sceva incident (vss 13-16) occurred.
In vs 18, we read and many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. They did not believe because of the incident concerning the seven sons of Sceva. They were already believers and they were messing around with stuff they should not have been messing around with. When the believers realized they needed to get rid of all their devilish nonsense, they did so. They were not newly born again because of what happened with the seven sons of Sceva.
In vs 18, the words "that believed" are translated from the Greek word pisteuō. The word pisteuō is in the perfect tense:
hope this helps ...
After we read that people were healed of diseases and devil spirit possession (vs 12), then the seven sons of Sceva incident (vss 13-16) occurred.
In vs 18, we read and many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. They did not believe because of the incident concerning the seven sons of Sceva. They were already believers and they were messing around with stuff they should not have been messing around with. When the believers realized they needed to get rid of all their devilish nonsense, they did so. They were not newly born again because of what happened with the seven sons of Sceva.
In vs 18, the words "that believed" are translated from the Greek word pisteuō. The word pisteuō is in the perfect tense:
The Perfect Tense
Action that has been completed in the past yet has results occurring in the present are expressed by the perfect tense. The perfect is often translated as "I have loosened."
See also Commentaries here: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/19-18.htm
hope this helps ...
My point is that the NT spiritual rebirth does not happen instantaneously the moment a person believes in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The rebirth experience requires obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. Jesus makes reference to this in John 3:5.
The spiritual rebirth is a process. All of the components, for lack of a better word, are required. As seen from the biblical record these things can, but do not always, occur on the same day. Nonetheless, all are recorded as being necessary. This truth is evidenced in Acts 2, 10, 19, and Acts 8 respectively. As well as being seen in both your and my personal experiences.
As far as the meaning of planting, it is just sharing God's word relevant to a given topic for the first time. Watering is reiterating the truth as evidenced by multiple scriptures. (1 Cor. 3:5-6)
The spiritual rebirth is a process. All of the components, for lack of a better word, are required. As seen from the biblical record these things can, but do not always, occur on the same day. Nonetheless, all are recorded as being necessary. This truth is evidenced in Acts 2, 10, 19, and Acts 8 respectively. As well as being seen in both your and my personal experiences.
As far as the meaning of planting, it is just sharing God's word relevant to a given topic for the first time. Watering is reiterating the truth as evidenced by multiple scriptures. (1 Cor. 3:5-6)
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This couldn't be more wrong.
The Bible teaches that WHEN a person believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, marking them as God's own possession. At that moment. Eph 1:13,14
John 5:24 clearly teaches that WHEN a person believes, they possess eternal life. That is salvation. In fact, Jesus said He was the giver of eternal life in John 10:28 and recipients shall NEVER PERISH.
Put these 2 verses together and you will realize that salvation is IMMEDIATE the moment one believes in Christ.
See verses above. They refute this theory.
The Bible teaches that WHEN a person believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, marking them as God's own possession. At that moment. Eph 1:13,14
John 5:24 clearly teaches that WHEN a person believes, they possess eternal life. That is salvation. In fact, Jesus said He was the giver of eternal life in John 10:28 and recipients shall NEVER PERISH.
Put these 2 verses together and you will realize that salvation is IMMEDIATE the moment one believes in Christ.
See verses above. They refute this theory.
John's comment in no way suggests that one would replace the other. Neither ceased to be necessary as reflected in scripture.
Acts 22:16 records Paul's water baptism as it references the use of Jesus' name. This is how every water baptism was done after Jesus' sacrifice. Acts 9:17-18 is the record of his receiving the Holy Ghost.
Mark 16:16 references belief, baptism, and the states after this occurs the born again person will speak in tongues; this refers to baptism by the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16 records Paul's water baptism as it references the use of Jesus' name. This is how every water baptism was done after Jesus' sacrifice. Acts 9:17-18 is the record of his receiving the Holy Ghost.
Mark 16:16 references belief, baptism, and the states after this occurs the born again person will speak in tongues; this refers to baptism by the Holy Ghost.
Paul's exact words in the scripture you cited contradict your interpretation. Paul stated the people were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea. (1 Cor 10:2)
There were 3 things associated with the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt. The blood of the Passover lamb, the water of the Red Sea and the cloud of God's presence leading His people. This typology parallels the believer's deliverance from the bondage of sin. (Egypt) The NT spiritual rebirth experience includes the blood of Jesus, the water of baptism, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our natural body guiding us in our daily walk.
There were 3 things associated with the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt. The blood of the Passover lamb, the water of the Red Sea and the cloud of God's presence leading His people. This typology parallels the believer's deliverance from the bondage of sin. (Egypt) The NT spiritual rebirth experience includes the blood of Jesus, the water of baptism, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our natural body guiding us in our daily walk.
John 3:5 is not a reference to Jesus' own baptism.
After informing Nicodemus of the requirements to enter the kingdom of God, Jesus tells him not to be surprised at what he has been told. He states, YOU must be born again. (verse 7)
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
After informing Nicodemus of the requirements to enter the kingdom of God, Jesus tells him not to be surprised at what he has been told. He states, YOU must be born again. (verse 7)
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Your current post has nothing to do with what we were discussing. What would help is to apologize for suggesting I was promoting the idea that the 12 disciples in Acts 19:1 needed to be water baptized 3 times. When in fact, my point about Acts 19:18 was the implication that water baptism was probably introduced to the people since they came to him and confessed and shewed deeds of repentance after believing his message.
Your previous comment:
So now you're saying they needed to be baptized again?
After having been baptized unto John's baptism ... see Acts 19:3 - apparently Apollos had baptized previously. Although not specifically stated in Acts 18, Acts 19:3 makes it clear that the Ephesians had been baptized unto John's baptism.
Then you claim that Paul baptized them again (Acts 19:4-5).
Now you're claiming they needed to be baptized yet again (Acts 19:18)?
Is that your assertion?
Thanks ...
My previous comment: Please take the time to read the account. (Acts 19:10-20)These are not the same people as in the beginning of Acts chapter 19. They were occult worshipping people who finally believed and accepted Paul's message after seeing the miracles God performed through him. They confessed and brought their occult books and burned them as proof of their genuine repentance.
Your previous comment:
So now you're saying they needed to be baptized again?
After having been baptized unto John's baptism ... see Acts 19:3 - apparently Apollos had baptized previously. Although not specifically stated in Acts 18, Acts 19:3 makes it clear that the Ephesians had been baptized unto John's baptism.
Then you claim that Paul baptized them again (Acts 19:4-5).
Now you're claiming they needed to be baptized yet again (Acts 19:18)?
Is that your assertion?
Thanks ...
My previous comment: Please take the time to read the account. (Acts 19:10-20)These are not the same people as in the beginning of Acts chapter 19. They were occult worshipping people who finally believed and accepted Paul's message after seeing the miracles God performed through him. They confessed and brought their occult books and burned them as proof of their genuine repentance.