50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 18, 2021

MAJOR ASSUMPTION on your part!

See again my Post #778 (BOTTOM of that post), just above yours (where I cover some of this very point)

[quoted here...]

TheDivineWatermark said:

FreeGrace2 · Apr 18, 2021

Truth7t7 said:

Yes, He sets up His Millennial Kingdom and rules the nations.

Uh, no. Where in the world do you get that? The present earth is dissolved immediately after the GWT judgment and Rev 21. Haven't you ever read Revelation 20 and 21?

Again, where in the world do you get that notion?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

Peter is describing the events that lead us to Rev 21:1.

I'm not going to address your patched together afghan, esp since you include no comment or explanation of any of the verses.

I have no idea what you think the verses mean or refer to.

GaryA · Apr 18, 2021

Runningman said:

I have no idea what you're talking about at this point, but as far as reading comprehension goes I'm doing fine.

Let's just keep it simple.

The definition accepted here is Apostasia G646. Strong's defines it as a defection from the truth. Do you reject that?

The defection from the truth comes first. Those with the truth are believers. And the man of sin is revealed. Now the day of Christ and the gathering comes. Done. (2 Thess. 2:1-3)

If you aren't willing to accept this then that's your right, but I'm not sure what your objective is anymore. You wont convince me the scripture says anything other than what is presented.

He is "cherry picking" greek words and adding his own personal "rules" to greek grammar.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 18, 2021

GaryA said:

If you're referring to ME, recall I said, I got those quotes from LEGIT (reputable) Greek Grammar sites, and I did NOT "add" the notations which were in the paretheses! Those are the ACTUAL RULES showing in the parentheses! (per the Greek!!)

Wow.

[when the "perfect tense" is in the INDICATIVE, it DOES INDEED speak to "TIME," contrary to your insufficient info you had presented!

Sorry that you don't like it... but it's TRUE

]

GaryA · Apr 18, 2021

GaryA said:

I suppose that I should have written this as follows:

1) If [virtually] all Christians on the earth were killed - for, say, not worshipping the beast - then, the "effectual working" of the Holy Spirit would be reduced to [nearly] zero.

The 'nearly' goes with the 'virtually' as an optional possibility...

FreeGrace2 · Apr 18, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
No. Jesus comes to earth TWICE.

TheDivineWatermark said:

No, there's not "that".

The terms "first" and "second" advent refer to Jesus coming to earth FROM HEAVEN. I thought all believers knew. When Jesus died, He didn't go to heaven. He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison. Then He came back to earth and was seen over a period of 40 days. THEN He went to heaven, after reminding the 11 disciples/apostles of the Great Commission, per Acts 1.

Jesus showed Himself to many people over 40 days. So what? He certainly didn't go back to heaven between all those showings.

Comes to earth two times FROM HEAVEN. That is the key.

What??!! Of course not "everyone in the world will participate". What do you even mean by that?

When Jesus comes the SECOND time, He resurrects all dead believers and changes all living believers. 1 Thess 4:13-17.

I simply don't agree with your 'math'. It doesn't add up.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 18, 2021

GaryA said:

They aren't "all" killed.

Recall, I've pointed out numerous times that ALL of Matt24-25 (and the many PARALLEL passages to these, such as Lk12:36 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [!] ) speaks of that which FOLLOWS "our Rapture" ... and those "saints" (at that time) who are "still-living" when He "RETURNS" (to the earth) will ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies (as the only ones capable of "reproducing / bearing children"); Dan12:12 speaks of these; and Rev20:4A / Dan7:22 speaks of these; and many many other passages speaks of these folks...)

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 18, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Show me the Scripture verse or verses STATING "SECOND advent"

(that is the label WE place on it, for ease of "communication")

FreeGrace2 · Apr 18, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
The "day" is real. The context is clear about that.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

The red words refer to the Second Advent, when Jesus comes back as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

TheDivineWatermark said:

Ha. You can ASSUME anything you want. Doesn't make you right, though.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 18, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Show me any verse that STATES the "Trinity".

Because that's basically what you are asking for.

btw, when I said "the terms" I wasn't quoting Scripture. I WAS labelling what Jesus would do, you know, for easy of communication.

Truth7t7 · Apr 18, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Does Jesus Christ Return In Fire, 100% YES, And Its Not A Boy Scout Camp Out

Just As Divine Watermark denies your presented truth in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, you do the same with the Lords fire at the (Second Coming) presented below

The scriptures below are very clear, and you deny this truth to maintain a Millennium on this earth, that will never take place.

Jesus Christ Returns The Second Time As Righteous Judge!

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 18, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

You seem to be ASSUMING that this "day" (you're speaking of) is WHAT the false conveyors were "[purporting / alleging]... IS HERE / IS PRESENT"

--yes, they said [purported] "IS HERE / IS PRESENT"... but they were NOT talking about "His Second Coming to the earth point-in-time [/His Second Advent]" and everything connected with that.

INSTEAD, they were (the v.2 "purporters"

) were talking about "the day of the Lord," that which the Thessalonians (Paul acknowledged) "KNOW PERFECTLY" that it (the DOTL earthly TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING) "so ARRIVES" like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 - G5100 tis 'A CERTAIN ONE' ('a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION!)]" which is at the START of what all Jesus was talking about (aka SEAL #1 + ----> onward)... not the END-CAP of what all He was talking about !!

In this passage before us (2Th2) Paul is AGAIN saying that "that day" [v.3a] (the DOTL earthly time-period of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER TIME [v.2's Subject!]) will be here when "the man of sin" exists (IN those very years!)

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 18, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Okay, then where is the rule that says He cannot come "to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" (when NO ONE ELSE is IN HIS "PRESENCE" except "US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... v.1) at a distinct time from when "the MANIFESTATION OF His coming/presence/parousia" happens (per v.8b... when ALL who are on the earth will INDEED SEE HIM...

...like 1Tim6:15 says, "which IN HIS TIMES He shall SHEW [OPENLY MANIFEST who is King of kings and Lord of lords"--a phrase found only in Rev19 (and in chpt 17 worded in the reverse order)--one of only TWO TIMES that "KING" (re: Him) is mentioned in ALL OF THE EPISTLES [!]...

...but what FOLLOWS "our Rapture" is "the man of sin"... "IN HIS TIME" (the "IN THE NIGHT" / "DARK" / "DARKNESS" time-period [aka 7-yr trib]); and Paul is also in this context telling of the TWO *CONTRASTING* "beliefs" ppl will be coming to, while IN those trib yrs (when the man of sin will DO ALL he is slated to DO in them), [which TWO CONTRASTING "beliefs" they'll be coming to] FOLLOWING "our Rapture". This is what Paul is conveying in this context (of both chpts... 2Th2:10-12 being ONE of these TWO "beliefs" ["GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, SO THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / the PSEUDEI" [i.e. during the "TIME-PERIOD" under discussion]).

You are wanting to EQUATE part of v.1 with that of v.8b... and you are wanting to EQUATE part of v.1 with what the false conveyors were purporting in v.2... but these OTHER [related] passages NEGATE what you are saying...

... therefore, I remain UNCONVINCED of your viewpoint.

Runningman · Apr 18, 2021

GaryA said:

Yes, I'm going with the straight forward definitions and words the translators used to make the reading comprehension clear and concise. They didn't mince any words here and used the most precise English translation for easy digestion.

What he added attempts to undermine what professional linguists and scholars have produced for our Bible reading.

As far as I'm concerned this discussion has undoubtedly proved beyond any doubt at what point Jesus returns relative to the great tribulation. 100% confident in the infallible word of God.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 18, 2021

[ran outta EDIT time

]

lamad · Apr 18, 2021

Runningman said:

Some Greek Texts say "Day of the Lord." Others say "day of Christ." We don't have a consensus on which day. However, since Paul's theme in this passage is the gathering, or rapture, let's refer back to His first letter about the rapture or gathering. In his first letter, about the rapture, we find:

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Notice that in his first letter, in a rapture passage, he mentioned "the day of the Lord." Now let's look more closely at your version of this text, or your theory: we will substitute "our gathering" for "the day of Christ" and see how it reads.

2 Thes. 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (KJV)
2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the [gathering] has [already] arrived and is here. (Amp)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the day of our gathering] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (KJV)

Verse 1: Paul sets the theme for this passage: it's about His coming and the gathering.
Verse 2: He is telling them not to be troubled or shaken in mind or alarmed due to some forged letter or some prophecy that [the day of the gathering has arrived and is here.
Verse 3: Here Paul gives two events that must come first before that day of gathering.

If this is Paul's intended meaning, you will have to answer a question: If the day of the rapture had arrived and was present there is no explanation as to why they were troubled and wrote to Paul. They should have been jumping up and down for excitement since they believed the day of the rapture was here. Why then were they troubled?

There is a second problem: it does not agree with Paul's first letter. There he explains how the rapture will set off or be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Paul shows them as back to back events: rapture/Day of the Lord.

There is a third problem: it does not agree with John in Revelation. There he shows us the 5th seal martyrs of the church age and explains to them that the time of judgment (the Day of the Lord) will not come until the last or final martyr is killed as they all were - as church age martyrs. In other words, God has told John that they will have to wait for the entire church age and the last martyr before the Day will start and God will judge. God's plan is very simple: the rapture of the church will cause a certain martyr to be that final martyr because the rapture will END the church age. The next martyr would be a Day of the Lord or 70th week martyr.

John shows us the 1st seal start of the church age as the church takes the gospel to the nations, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, then the 5th seal martyrs of the church age, then the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord, and right after that, the raptured church in heaven.

Your theory would fit the Matthew 24 gathering, if indeed that was Paul's rapture - but it is not.

Now let's look at it as if it was the day of the Lord.

2 Thes. 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (KJV)
2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord [that dark day of wrath where God destroys the world and the sinners in the world] has [already] arrived and is here. (Amp)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the day of the Lord] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (KJV)

Verse 1: Paul sets the theme for this passage: it's about His coming and the gathering.
Verse 2: He is telling them not to be troubled or shaken in mind or alarmed due to some forged letter or some prophecy that the day of the Lord has arrived and is here.
Verse 3: Here Paul gives two events that must come first before that day of Lord: that dark day of judgment.

Now let's think about this: They were under heavy persecution - that would seem like the Day of the Lord. Then either some prophecy or some forged letters tells them that the Day of the Lord has started and they are IN IT. They had Paul's first letter telling them that the rapture would come first as the trigger for the Day. Now they are told the DAY has come, and they are still here. OF COURSE they are troubled! Who wouldn't be in their position? According to what they had been taught, they should have been caught up already. Perhaps some wondered if they had been left behind. This makes perfect sense for this passage. Paul's answer will be to explain that the day has NOT come and how they or anyone can know for SURE when the Day has come. First, they would see a very significant departing (from what Paul does not tell) and then they would see the man of sin revealed. How? He would enter the Holy of Holies and declare he is GOD! (No one could miss such a thing!)

If Paul was meaning a falling away from the church, how would anyone know when enough had fallen away to be THE falling away? No one would know for sure. But if Paul's meaning was the gathering, how could anyone miss such an event: it would certainly THE departing.

Therefore I am millions of others disagree with your take on this passage.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 18, 2021

Runningman said:

The FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH translations (before the kjv ever existed) rendered the word (in 2:3) "a departing" or "departure".

NOTHING "complicated" about that.

[that is exactly what the word MEANS]

cv5 · Apr 18, 2021

The post-trib crowd says that there is not one single verse indicating the fact of the Rapture.

There is no doubt that this is a false claim on their part. For here it is for everyone to behold....

Rev 3:10
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial (peirasmos) which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Since this statement is so crisp, distinct and nonarbitrary, furthermore as it being made by made by Jesus Christ Himself, we thereby do instantaneously elevate this to the status of boilerplate doctrine.

Compare the above with......
2 Thess 2:2
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Of course the Thessalonians thought they had missed the rapture. Obviously. They were well aware of Paul's oral teachings. Teachings that were a direct revelation from Jesus Christ.

For context, compare Rev 3:10 against the rest of the six letters to six Churches. And most interestingly Sardis......

Rev 3:3
“Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

1 Thes 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

Coming as a thief? Code words for the 7yr tribulation. Clearly. And we won't be there. Obviously.

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 18, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Well aren't you the one insisting that "rapture TO HEAVEN" is stated succinctly IN ONE VERSE...

(ponder what I put in my last post [#793], and perhaps you'll see why it's not worded in the Bible in such a "spelled out way that FrGr2 is requiring!"

[RARE is the "prophecy" that ever IS!! (/ WAS!!)])

GaryA · Apr 18, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

And, that is exactly why I put it in there - and went to the trouble to re-explain it.

Runningman · Apr 18, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Agreed.

One of the fatal flaws of the pre-trib rapture is that Jesus returns, then leaves, returns then leaves sometimes three or four times. Though not all pre-tribulationists believe in more than two advents, many do.

It's a convenient way to make the pre-trib theology work, but it doesn't stand to Biblical scrutiny. For example, there aren't any clear verses that assert Jesus leaves then came back numerous times after His second advent.

There's also what we're witnessing here right now which is essentially an effort to redefine what 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 states in nearly all Bible versions by changing the definition of Greek words. The reason they care so much about this is because the plain-text interpretation of this verse debunks the pre-trib rapture, but that isn't the end.

As you have correctly pointed out, there's a major resurrection problem pre-tribbers must contend with. The first resurrection has to include tribulation saints, meaning that it's impossible to prop up a pre-trib rapture doctrine.

If all of that wasn't enough, they usually reject Matthew 24:29-31 which bluntly says that Jesus returns after the great tribulation to gather His elect. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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