50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[cv5]

"""For example, Hebrews 6:1-2 should read:

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of MESSIAH, let us go on to MATURITY, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of WASHINGS, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."""

^^^^^^^That is reframing what was originally written.

Laying on of hands
Baptism
Raising the dead

Are not EXCLUSIVE ORTHODOX JEW TRADITIONS.

Not even remotely close.

Clearly referring to believers parked on elemental basic


Paul said " i want to give you meat, but no, i have to breast feed you babies"

You have to look at the context. When do you do you understand that yes these are OT principles that are being spoken of in that passage.

Hebrews can be very tricky in that regard. For example the terms "brethren" and "holy brethren" are speaking to two distinct categories of Israelites. "Brethren" are unsaved Jews, while "holy brethren" are the saved Jews who DID receive the New Covenant.

Basically what you're dealing with in the book of Hebrews are Jews who heard the accurate preaching of the Gospel, actually attended Church services and observed the working of the Holy Spirit, witnessed the miraculous healings and works of mighty power.......and despite all of this turned their backs and walked away to OT Judaism. For lots of different reasons including persecution.

 

[cv5]

"""For example, Hebrews 6:1-2 should read:

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of MESSIAH, let us go on to MATURITY, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of WASHINGS, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."""

^^^^^^^That is reframing what was originally written.

Laying on of hands
Baptism
Raising the dead

Are not EXCLUSIVE ORTHODOX JEW TRADITIONS.

Not even remotely close.

Clearly referring to believers parked on elemental basic


Paul said " i want to give you meat, but no, i have to breast feed you babies"

Heb 6:1 (literal Greek translation)
"LEAVING the beginning teaching of Messiah"

LEAVING G863 ephiemi ......... divorce, to depart, to let go of

Christians are never told to abandon the beginning principles of Christianity.
Verse one is speaking to Jews and telling them to LEAVE the Old Testament shadows and types and sacrafices ("laying on of hands") of the OT Messiah......whom they did NOT know.

 

[Absolutely]

Heb 6:1 (literal Greek translation)
"LEAVING the beginning teaching of Messiah"

LEAVING G863 ephiemi ......... divorce, to depart, to let go of

Christians are never told to abandon the beginning principles of Christianity.
Verse one is speaking to Jews and telling them to LEAVE the Old Testament shadows and types and sacrafices ("laying on of hands") of the OT Messiah......whom they did NOT know.

You are saying baptism, laying on hands, and raising the dead are anything but christian dynamics.

I do not need that grand canyon leap.

The CONTEXT is heb 5.

I want to bring you into depth ( which is the meat of typology in the book of hebrews such as melchesidek and Abraham and the priesthood.

Milk vs meat is the context of laying aside basic milk. Foundational doctrines.

We see this all the time in baptist teachers. No depth. Basic salvation every week.

No missler type teachers that are deep.

 

[VCO]

You're wrong.

This is the Bible discussion forum. This is where people discuss the Bible. Tearing everyone down who disagrees with you is decidedly not showing the gentle and measured response someone with fruits of the Holy Spirit should have.

You rarely ever end any of your points in something constructive to learning and encouragement. I don't see love in your posts, just recklessness.

You end with condemnation of the person rather than offer a solution to what you perceive is false or bad.

The reason I'm telling you this is not because it's my problem, but because maybe it'll make you realize it's your problem. You should ask God to help you learn humility.

So Why are you still here? JUST TO ARGUE ? ? ? This site was started by a CHRISTIAN who absolutely BELIEVES whole heartedly IN THE PRETRIB RAPTURE, and stomp around trying muddy the waters of TRUTH, which is just ARGUING. Instead of STARTING your own Thread with the opposite point of VIEW. ARE YOU ADDICTED TO ARGUING ? ? ?

Proverbs 6:16-19 (NCV)
16 There are six things the LORD hates. There are seven things he cannot stand:
17 a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that kill innocent people,
18 a mind that thinks up evil plans, feet that are quick to do evil,
19 a witness who lies, and someone who starts arguments among families.

Proverbs 6:14 (NCV)
14 They make evil plans in their hearts and are always starting arguments.

Proverbs 13:10 (ESV)
10 By insolence comes nothing but strife, but with those who take advice is wisdom.

1 Corinthians 2:13 (GW)
13 We don't speak about these things using teachings that are based on intellectual arguments like people do. Instead, we use the Spirit's teachings. We explain spiritual things to those who have the Spirit.

Ephesians 5:6 (HCSB)
6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient because of these things.

Colossians 2:4 (HCSB)
4 I am saying this so that no one will deceive you with persuasive arguments.

1 Timothy 6:4-5 (HCSB)
4 he is conceited, understanding nothing, but has a sick interest in disputes and arguments over words. From these come envy, quarreling, slander, evil suspicions,
5 and constant disagreement among people whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth, who imagine that godliness is a way to material gain.

1 Timothy 6:20 (NASB)
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"—

1 Timothy 2:8 (HCSB)
8 Therefore, I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument.

2 Timothy 2:23 (NCV)
23 Stay away from foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they grow into quarrels.

Titus 3:9 (HCSB)
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Wisdom from the Apocrypha:

Sirach 8:3 (NJB)
3 Do not argue with anyone argumentative, do not pile wood on that fire.

GOD HATES ARGUING !

Now there is a way we can solve this: We can always just AGREE TO DISAGREE, and you go on to start your own THREAD, on the opposite point of VIEW.

I consider myself, an OLD RAM in the FLOCK, and I will do all that I can do to protect the FLOCK, especially the younger ones, from Wolves that bite and tear at the FLOCK trying to pull them away to their way of thinking.

 

[Absolutely]

Heb 6:1 (literal Greek translation)
"LEAVING the beginning teaching of Messiah"

LEAVING G863 ephiemi ......... divorce, to depart, to let go of

Christians are never told to abandon the beginning principles of Christianity.
Verse one is speaking to Jews and telling them to LEAVE the Old Testament shadows and types and sacrafices ("laying on of hands") of the OT Messiah......whom they did NOT know.

You are basically saying the basic orthodox Jewish doctrines needed to be laid aside, demolished.
Nothing there remotely resembles laying on of hands or raising the dead.

The orthodox jews were baptising?
Or was it the christians baptising?
Were Jews constantly raising the dead?

What power or name were these Orthodox Jews using?

Raising the dead was a jewish dynamic?

And paul was just being jewish and in error when he himself raised people from the dead?

No friend....macarthur needs to recant.

 

[Absolutely]

So Why are you still here? JUST TO ARGUE ? ? ? This site was started by a CHRISTIAN who absolutely BELIEVES whole heartedly IN THE PRETRIB RAPTURE, and stomp around trying muddy the waters of TRUTH, which is just ARGUING. Instead of STARTING your own Thread with the opposite point of VIEW. ARE YOU ADDICTED TO ARGUING ? ? ?

Proverbs 6:16-19 (NCV)
16 There are six things the LORD hates. There are seven things he cannot stand:
17 a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that kill innocent people,
18 a mind that thinks up evil plans, feet that are quick to do evil,
19 a witness who lies, and someone who starts arguments among families.

Proverbs 6:14 (NCV)
14 They make evil plans in their hearts and are always starting arguments.

Proverbs 13:10 (ESV)
10 By insolence comes nothing but strife, but with those who take advice is wisdom.

1 Corinthians 2:13 (GW)
13 We don't speak about these things using teachings that are based on intellectual arguments like people do. Instead, we use the Spirit's teachings. We explain spiritual things to those who have the Spirit.

Ephesians 5:6 (HCSB)
6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient because of these things.

Colossians 2:4 (HCSB)
4 I am saying this so that no one will deceive you with persuasive arguments.

1 Timothy 6:4-5 (HCSB)
4 he is conceited, understanding nothing, but has a sick interest in disputes and arguments over words. From these come envy, quarreling, slander, evil suspicions,
5 and constant disagreement among people whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth, who imagine that godliness is a way to material gain.

1 Timothy 6:20 (NASB)
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"—

1 Timothy 2:8 (HCSB)
8 Therefore, I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument.

2 Timothy 2:23 (NCV)
23 Stay away from foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they grow into quarrels.

Titus 3:9 (HCSB)
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Wisdom from the Apocrypha:

Sirach 8:3 (NJB)
3 Do not argue with anyone argumentative, do not pile wood on that fire.

GOD HATES ARGUING !

Now there is a way we can solve this: We can always just AGREE TO DISAGREE, and you go on to start your own THREAD, on the opposite point of VIEW.

I consider myself, an OLD RAM in the FLOCK, and I will do all that I can do to protect the FLOCK, especially the younger ones, from Wolves that bite and tear at the FLOCK trying to pull them away to their way of thinking.

1) you are not a moderator

2) you are here doing what you correct other of

3) nobody makes you read anything

4) why do you think the ignore button was invented?

5) it was you that went nuclear on osas and never even unpacked
Heb 6.

7) in fact...it was you that posted osas originally .I just went with the bible and you went on the macarthur calvary attack.

 

[Absolutely]

Heb 6:1 (literal Greek translation)
"LEAVING the beginning teaching of Messiah"

LEAVING G863 ephiemi ......... divorce, to depart, to let go of

Christians are never told to abandon the beginning principles of Christianity.
Verse one is speaking to Jews and telling them to LEAVE the Old Testament shadows and types and sacrafices ("laying on of hands") of the OT Messiah......whom they did NOT know.

i think the Holy Spirit put into play " raising the dead" just to solidify it was not orthodox jews being addressed.

I noticed you did not go there

 

[cv5]

You are basically saying the basic orthodox Jewish doctrines needed to be laid aside, demolished.
Nothing there remotely resembles laying on of hands or raising the dead.

The orthodox jews were baptising?
Or was it the christians baptising?
Were Jews constantly raising the dead?

What power or name were these Orthodox Jews using?

Raising the dead was a jewish dynamic?

And paul was just being jewish and in error when he himself raised people from the dead?

No friend....macarthur needs to recant.

Absolutely no I do not mean demolished. Neither does MacArthur....it can't mean that.
I mean move on to receive Jesus as Savior and fulfillment of the Old Testament. The entire point of Hebrews is that there is no salvation in holding to the OT Religious economy.

I think everyone can agree with that. That's basically what Hebrews is all about.

 

[Runningman]

So Why are you still here? JUST TO ARGUE ? ? ? This site was started by a CHRISTIAN who absolutely BELIEVES whole heartedly IN THE PRETRIB RAPTURE, and stomp around trying muddy the waters of TRUTH, which is just ARGUING. Instead of STARTING your own Thread with the opposite point of VIEW. ARE YOU ADDICTED TO ARGUING ? ? ?

Proverbs 6:16-19 (NCV)
16 There are six things the LORD hates. There are seven things he cannot stand:
17 a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that kill innocent people,
18 a mind that thinks up evil plans, feet that are quick to do evil,
19 a witness who lies, and someone who starts arguments among families.

Proverbs 6:14 (NCV)
14 They make evil plans in their hearts and are always starting arguments.

Proverbs 13:10 (ESV)
10 By insolence comes nothing but strife, but with those who take advice is wisdom.

1 Corinthians 2:13 (GW)
13 We don't speak about these things using teachings that are based on intellectual arguments like people do. Instead, we use the Spirit's teachings. We explain spiritual things to those who have the Spirit.

Ephesians 5:6 (HCSB)
6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient because of these things.

Colossians 2:4 (HCSB)
4 I am saying this so that no one will deceive you with persuasive arguments.

1 Timothy 6:4-5 (HCSB)
4 he is conceited, understanding nothing, but has a sick interest in disputes and arguments over words. From these come envy, quarreling, slander, evil suspicions,
5 and constant disagreement among people whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth, who imagine that godliness is a way to material gain.

1 Timothy 6:20 (NASB)
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"—

1 Timothy 2:8 (HCSB)
8 Therefore, I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument.

2 Timothy 2:23 (NCV)
23 Stay away from foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they grow into quarrels.

Titus 3:9 (HCSB)
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Wisdom from the Apocrypha:

Sirach 8:3 (NJB)
3 Do not argue with anyone argumentative, do not pile wood on that fire.

GOD HATES ARGUING !

Now there is a way we can solve this: We can always just AGREE TO DISAGREE, and you go on to start your own THREAD, on the opposite point of VIEW.

I consider myself, an OLD RAM in the FLOCK, and I will do all that I can do to protect the FLOCK, especially the younger ones, from Wolves that bite and tear at the FLOCK trying to pull them away to their way of thinking.

I'm here because I have the right to be here and have a discussion with other people.

I don't put people on ignore because I believe no matter how toxic they become that they are not beyond the reach of God. If God can act through me to reach someone then ignoring them is a disservice.

In your case, your response in all capital letters, with the occasional exclamation point, make it seem like you do not have the temperament to be a self-proclaimed "old ram of the flock." What you do is tantamount to shouting. For someone your age, you are not ready to be a leader. I can tell and I am probably twice as young as most of you in this thread.

Look yourself in the mirror. Does this sound like you?

1 Timothy 3:3-7
3 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

You do not measure up.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No non-Christians can be elect. The elect are only those who accept Christ.

Actually, Jesus specifically noted that he chose 9elected) Judas. John 6:70,71. Election is to service, not to salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But osas is error.

Wow. Then you must be in TOTAL disagreement with what Jesus said in John 01:28. He said, "I give them (believers) eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." Real simple.

Once given eternal life, they shall never perish.

And not only that, but Jesus told us in clear words WHEN eternal life is possessed by believers in John 5:24.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Plain as day. It is WHEN one believes that they POSSESS eternal life.

So, from the MOMENT one believes savingly in Christ for salvation, the believer has eternal life and shall never perish.

Heb 6 has the saved departing the faith.

Even Jesus noted the second soil "believed for a while" and when times got tough, they "fell away". But that isn't loss of salvation. It is loss of faith.

Losing faith doesn't change the FACT that Jesus already gave them eternal life WHEN they believed, and therefore, according to Jesus, they shall never perish.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost cannot believe what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.

They are mutually exclusive.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Family by adoption.

Do you know WHEN believers are adopted? If so, what verse says so?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then post for us a postrib rapture verse.

Should be a bunch of them.

Getting kinda tired having to keep repeating the clearest verse in the Bible about the rapture. Why do you continue to deny it?

2 Thess 2:1 shows the rapture occurring with the Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Uh no. I DO have a little knowledge and I DO understand covenant. Blood covenant.
Salvation is a covenant.

That is quite incorrect. Salvation is NOT a covenant. Either you do not understand covenants or you don't understand salvation.

Salvation is by grace. Eph 2:8. That means man has no part in providing God's salvation. All man can do is receive it as a free gift.

A covenant is an agreement between 2 people; each one has obligations to fulfill.

 

[VCO]

I'm here because I have the right to be here and have a discussion with other people.

I don't put people on ignore because I believe no matter how toxic they become that they are not beyond the reach of God. If God can act through me to reach someone then ignoring them is a disservice.

In your case, your response in all capital letters, with the occasional exclamation point, make it seem like you do not have the temperament to be a self-proclaimed "old ram of the flock." What you do is tantamount to shouting. For someone your age, you are not ready to be a leader. I can tell and I am probably twice as young as most of you in this thread.

Look yourself in the mirror. Does this sound like you?

1 Timothy 3:3-7
3 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

You do not measure up.

Not in the least. I went to High School in the Mid 60's, and I DO NOT PLAY BY FACE BOOK RULES. I play by my Typing teacher RULES, in 1967. She said All Caps were for emphasis only, and so were Colors. I have never had a Face Book Account and NEVER WILL.

I Play by GOD's Rules:

 

[VCO]

You have to look at the context. When do you do you understand that yes these are OT principles that are being spoken of in that passage.

Hebrews can be very tricky in that regard. For example the terms "brethren" and "holy brethren" are speaking to two distinct categories of Israelites. "Brethren" are unsaved Jews, while "holy brethren" are the saved Jews who DID receive the New Covenant.

Basically what you're dealing with in the book of Hebrews are Jews who heard the accurate preaching of the Gospel, actually attended Church services and observed the working of the Holy Spirit, witnessed the miraculous healings and works of mighty power.......and despite all of this turned their backs and walked away to OT Judaism. For lots of different reasons including persecution.

I got to take another SABBATICAL.

 

[ewq1938]

Side question: what's your take in John 6:50-71? Is this an often overlooked reference to His second coming?

No. He speaks of his first coming and the ultimate reward of eternal life but the second coming is not addressed.


Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, Jesus specifically noted that he chose 9elected) Judas. John 6:70,71. Election is to service, not to salvation.

I am specifically talking about these elect:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This has nothing to do with people like Judas.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, Jesus specifically noted that he chose 9elected) Judas. John 6:70,71. Election is to service, not to salvation.

I am specifically talking about these elect:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This has nothing to do with people like Judas.

I know. But too many believers mistakenly think "elect" means saved people in every verse. It doesn't. People need to be told or reminded of what the word actually refers to.

Yes, I agree that Matt 24 refers to saved people. Only saved people.

 

[ewq1938]

I know. But too many believers mistakenly think "elect" means saved people in every verse. It doesn't. People need to be told or reminded of what the word actually refers to.

G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

I looked up every use of this word. I didn't see it refer to anyone unsaved. Judas is not called this term.