50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sure, it is a TRUTH we are to understand and grasp even today.

But it is imperative that we understand RIGHTLY what it was [saying when Paul wrote 2Th] in the time that they were existing back then.

The text SAYS "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"... the text does NOT inform us (v.2) "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS AT HAND". No.



Understanding ARIGHT what the TEXT TELLS US (was said by false conveyors), will help us in application ARIGHT, now / today also! (what is said by false conveyors saying THAT SAME THING, at any given time throughout the ENTIRE time & history of "the Church which is His body" existence on the earth! [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)])

If we take this first MISSTEP in [not] grasping what v.2 SAYS IN THE TEXT, we will NOT be able to properly apply... now!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yeah brother it really seems like they are trying hard to change the meaning of what is said.

The "PERFECT INDICATIVE" that the text itself is showing to be the case in v.2 regarding that phrase, completely negates the idea that you are imposing onto the text. It does not say "is at hand" in v.2, but "is present [perfect indicative]"

It is not me that is "changing" the text (v.2), but you that are doing so, sorry to say.

Try again... with the understanding that it is in the "PERFECT indicative," instead of how you are suggesting.


https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm [PERFECT indicative... where the "PERFECT tense" is represented by the "R" below the word... " V-RIA-3S " ]

 

[cv5]

I think you're misunderstanding. Even though people were saying "the day is at hand" Paul rebuttals that by saying the day is not at hand until the falling away and man of sin is revealed.

Basically Paul repeats what people were incorrectly saying and then proves them to be false.

So Paul was telling them that YES they (and we) should be absolutely TERRIFIED of going through the Tribulation. But just not quite yet. Maybe tomorrow maybe the next day. Some small consolation that is. And no real relief whatsoever. In fact quite the contrary.

Absolutely ludicrous. Absolutely preposterous. More importantly that is definitely not the correct teaching that one must obtain from these passages. And these passages parallel all the rest of the pretrib passages. Passages that speak of consolation, of comfort of relief.

Sudden destruction comes upon "them". God did not appoint "us" to wrath. The darkness. The night. The tribulation.

 

[Runningman]

The "PERFECT INDICATIVE" that the text itself is showing to be the case in v.2 regarding that phrase, completely negates the idea that you are imposing onto the text. It does not say "is at hand" in v.2, but "is present [perfect indicative]"

It is not me that is "changing" the text (v.2), but you that are doing so, sorry to say.

Try again... with the understanding that it is in the "PERFECT indicative," instead of how you are suggesting.


https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm [PERFECT indicative... where the "PERFECT tense" is represented by the "R" below the word... " V-RIA-3S " ]

No.

People were alleging the day of Christ had already come. Paul says to not be deceived by this.

The day of Christ will not come until the rebellion of the church comes and the man of sin is revealed.

What Bible version are you reading?

 

[Runningman]

So Paul was telling them that YES they (and we) should be absolutely TERRIFIED of going through the Tribulation. But just not quite yet. Maybe tomorrow maybe the next day. Some small consolation that is. And no real relief whatsoever. In fact quite the contrary.

Absolutely ludicrous. Absolutely preposterous. More importantly that is definitely not the correct teaching that one must obtain from these passages. And these passages parallel all the rest of the pretrib passages. Passages that speak of consolation, of comfort of relief.

Sudden destruction comes upon "them". God did not appoint "us" to wrath. The darkness. The night. The tribulation.

Not what my Bible says, not even a little bit. I mostly use KJV but I've looked at numerous other versions and don't see any sort of anything you just said in these passages or any other passages.

What Bible version do you use if I may inquire? Let me look at what you're reading.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No.

People were alleging the day of Christ had already come.

NOW YOU GOT IT!

[however... "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"... i.e. that it had ALREADY ARRIVED at some point in the PAST (STARTED at some point in the PAST) and is PLAYING OUT in the PRESENT, that is, IN THEIR EXPERIENCE, in the HERE AND NOW]

Paul says to not be deceived by this.

CORRECT!

That's what I said! Yes!

Because it WASN'T "PRESENT" and "[v.3] will NOT BE [PRESENT], if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED...,"

...that is, when "the man of sin" WILL BE REVEALED, THAT is when "the day of the Lord" WILL INDEED "BE PRESENT" (to unfold upon the earth, as it is slated to do, per the prophecy regarding it)

The day of Christ will not come until the rebellion of the church comes and the man of sin is revealed.

What Bible version are you reading?

 

[Truth7t7]

So Paul was telling them that YES they (and we) should be absolutely TERRIFIED of going through the Tribulation. But just not quite yet. Maybe tomorrow maybe the next day. Some small consolation that is. And no real relief whatsoever. In fact quite the contrary.

Absolutely ludicrous. Absolutely preposterous. More importantly that is definitely not the correct teaching that one must obtain from these passages. And these passages parallel all the rest of the pretrib passages. Passages that speak of consolation, of comfort of relief.

Sudden destruction comes upon "them". God did not appoint "us" to wrath. The darkness. The night. The tribulation.

(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Absolutely]

So Paul was telling them that YES they (and we) should be absolutely TERRIFIED of going through the Tribulation. But just not quite yet. Maybe tomorrow maybe the next day. Some small consolation that is. And no real relief whatsoever. In fact quite the contrary.

Absolutely ludicrous. Absolutely preposterous. More importantly that is definitely not the correct teaching that one must obtain from these passages. And these passages parallel all the rest of the pretrib passages. Passages that speak of consolation, of comfort of relief.

Sudden destruction comes upon "them". God did not appoint "us" to wrath. The darkness. The night. The tribulation.

indeed

plus play it backwards

there is no peace and safety whatsoever in the gt.

so how at the end of the gt are they going to say "peace and safety"?

 

[Runningman]

NOW YOU GOT IT!

[however... "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"... i.e. that it had ALREADY ARRIVED at some point in the PAST (STARTED at some point in the PAST) and is PLAYING OUT in the PRESENT, that is, IN THEIR EXPERIENCE, in the HERE AND NOW]




CORRECT!

That's what I said! Yes!

Because it WASN'T "PRESENT" and "[v.3] will NOT BE [PRESENT], if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED...,"

...that is, when "the man of sin" WILL BE REVEALED, THAT is when "the day of the Lord" WILL INDEED "BE PRESENT" (to unfold upon the earth, as it is slated to do, per the prophecy regarding it)

Almost seems like we're on the same page now, but all I did was just reword in different terms what I have been saying all along.

So you're in agreement that 2 Thess. 2:2-3 is not about the church departing from the Earth prior to the apostasy and the man of sin being revealed? Or am I reading you wrong?

I'm cautiously under the assumption you're still holding a pre-trib rapture position. How do you reconcile that belief with what 2 Thess. 2:2-3 says?

 

[Absolutely]

The day of Christ will not come until the rebellion of the church comes and the man of sin is revealed.

What Bible version are you reading? """

do postribs know that that dynamic can not be postrib??????

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Almost seems like we're on the same page now, but all I did was just reword in different terms what I have been saying all along.

No. You were saying the text said "is at hand" (as though NOT YET PRESENT, but UPCOMING); but that's not what the text is conveying... Instead, it is conveying "[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (meaning, "HAS ALREADY ARRIVED at some point IN THE PAST, and CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT"... which is decidedly NOT the point you had been making! )

NOW, you are getting on the right track... you are getting there (more closely aligning with what the TEXT is actually SAYING)...

Keep it up, and you'll get there all the way!


Marinate in that thought as to what the text IS SAYING:

that the false conveyors were saying (and could say at any point throughout the existence of "the Church which is His body" on the earth): "[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"

... Paul's response that follows (regarding the SEQUENCE, repeated 3x in this context) is applicable even today...

 

[Absolutely]

No. You were saying the text said "is at hand" (as though NOT YET PRESENT, but UPCOMING); but that's not what the text is conveying... Instead, it is conveying "[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (meaning, "HAS ALREADY ARRIVED at some point IN THE PAST, and CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT"... which is decidedly NOT the point you had been making! )

NOW, you are getting on the right track... you are getting there (more closely aligning with what the TEXT is actually SAYING)...

Keep it up, and you'll get there all the way!


Marinate in that thought as to what the text IS SAYING:

that the false conveyors were saying (and could say at any point throughout the existence of "the Church which is His body" on the earth): "[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"

... Paul's response that follows (regarding the SEQUENCE, repeated 3x in this context) is applicable even today...

yes there has to be an "open reading"

otherwise we get nowhere.

 

[Truth7t7]

indeed

plus play it backwards

there is no peace and safety whatsoever in the gt.

so how at the end of the gt are they going to say "peace and safety"?

The sealed church is protected during the tribulation who you kidding

The (Two Witnesses) bring all the plagues seen in the Revelation, by the hand of God, and they dont fall on the Church present on earth, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

All Saved Believers Have Gods Seal

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Only Those That Don't Have Gods Seal Will Be Tormented (Fact)

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

All Plagues, As Often As The Will!

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

yes there has to be an "open reading"

otherwise we get nowhere.

My point has been:

--what does the TEXT actually SAY

--what did that MEAN to the Thessalonians (the recipients of his letter)

--THEN (understanding all that RIGHTLY), we can PROPERLY apply it to us TODAY (*if* any given text is indeed "applicable")




... but what the text is NOT saying is, "[purporting / alleging] that JESUS' COMING/RETURN is NEAR/AT HAND". No.

The false conveyors were NOT expressing THAT (according to what the TEXT of v.2 actually SAYS).

And *if* we think that's what v.2 is conveying, we've MISSED the TEXT, and will consequently WRONGLY APPLY (even today).

 

[Runningman]

No. You were saying the text said "is at hand" (as though NOT YET PRESENT, but UPCOMING); but that's not what the text is conveying... Instead, it is conveying "[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (meaning, "HAS ALREADY ARRIVED at some point IN THE PAST, and CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT"... which is decidedly NOT the point you had been making! )

NOW, you are getting on the right track... you are getting there (more closely aligning with what the TEXT is actually SAYING)...

Keep it up, and you'll get there all the way!


Marinate in that thought as to what the text IS SAYING:

that the false conveyors were saying (and could say at any point throughout the existence of "the Church which is His body" on the earth): "[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"

... Paul's response that follows (regarding the SEQUENCE, repeated 3x in this context) is applicable even today...

I disagree with your rendering of what you think I said or what the verses say. I guess we will just read it differently.

I do encourage you to accept the definitions of the words the expert translators used to translate the Bible into English.

It's also impossible to do a word-for-word search when you quote a verse with all of the emphasis you add.

I noticed you preferred "departure" over falling away, rebellion, apostasy, etc.

The Bible versions I've found that use "departure" are the Literal Standard Version and the World English Bible. Do you use those?

 

[Truth7t7]

Almost seems like we're on the same page now, but all I did was just reword in different terms what I have been saying all along.

So you're in agreement that 2 Thess. 2:2-3 is not about the church departing from the Earth prior to the apostasy and the man of sin being revealed? Or am I reading you wrong?

I'm cautiously under the assumption you're still holding a pre-trib rapture position. How do you reconcile that belief with what 2 Thess. 2:2-3 says?

Of course TWM was proclaiming Departure/Pre-Trib Rapture is seen, and in post #534 above, avoids a direct answer (Folly) in games!

 

[Way-Truth-Life]

I think that people spend too much time disagreeing over things that have absolutely nothing to do with one's salvation & eternal destiny (such as is the so-called 'rapture pre-trib, post trib, mid-trib; who is the possible Antichrist & is he already on earth; what day is the correct day to worship; what the mark of the beast is / will be, etc..) rather than concentrating on the most important thing - being ready to meet the Lord & Saviour at a the blink of an eye - by being in adherence & obedience to His Teachings & His Commands, as delineated & recorded in the four gospels.

 

[Truth7t7]

I disagree with your rendering of what you think I said or what the verses say. I guess we will just read it differently.

I do encourage you to accept the definitions of the words the expert translators used to translate the Bible into English.

It's also impossible to do a word-for-word search when you quote a verse with all of the emphasis you add.

I noticed you preferred "departure" over falling away, rebellion, apostasy, etc.

The Bible versions I've found that use "departure" are the Literal Standard Version and the World English Bible. Do you use those?

Intentional chaos, of course the individual has openly stated a (Departure) is seen (Pre-Trib Rapture), and they referenced the Bishops Bible translations earlier in the thread

Departure is from the truth once held, not a pre-trib rapture to heaven

Once again, I have been following, and yes this poster is holding the same position as CV5 in (Departure) meaning a pre-trib rapture to heaven

 

[Truth7t7]

I think that people spend too much time disagreeing over things that have absolutely nothing to do with one's salvation & eternal destiny (such as is the so-called 'rapture pre-trib, post trib, mid-trib; who is the possible Antichrist & is he already on earth; what day is the correct day to worship; what the mark of the beast is / will be, etc..) rather than concentrating on the most important thing - being ready to meet the Lord & Saviour at a the blink of an eye - by being in adherence & obedience to His Teachings & His Commands, as delineated & recorded in the four gospels.

Amazing, another new member 2nd post, jumping right into the thick of the thread, (A Mystery)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I disagree with your rendering of what you think I said or what the verses say. I guess we will just read it differently.

What are you [now] saying that the TEXT of v.2 actually SAYS (in view of the "PERFECT TENSE" that that word is):

--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS AT HAND" (not yet present, but perhaps soon will be); OR

--"[purporting / alleging] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (ALREADY STARTED at some point IN THE PAST, and CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT)



Which are YOU saying the TEXT says??

I do encourage you to accept the definitions of the words the expert translators used to translate the Bible into English.

I encourage the same... as always!


(I supplied 3 or so, in this very thread, and others like it!! I ALSO said that the FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH translations, BEFORE the kjv existed, translated the word in v.3 as "a departing" or "departure"... which is a PERFECTLY LEGIT translation! [since that is the most basic meaning of the word... with no outside "ideas" INJECTED ] )